So things seem a bit mad in Manchester

[-james-]

Bombs and bullets apparently.

[Lewis]

That should be 'mad for it'.

[-james-]

Yeah I realised I'd missed a trick there.

There's stuff on Twitter with a load of teenage girls screaming but that seems par for the course for an Ariana Grande gig.

[Lewis]

It was Penaldo crashing the Griezmann welcome wagon.

[Raoul Duke]

Blown speaker, according to some randoms on Twitter

[Spammer]

Do you at least have a link explaining what you're on about?

[-james-]

Do you at least have a link explaining what you're on about?

This is cutting edge shit mate. No I don't have a fucking 'link'.

[Raoul Duke]

Do you at least have a link explaining what you're on about?

Ariana Grande latte

[-james-]

Twitter updates ranging from a big balloon being popped up to 15 dead.

[Lewis]

It's pretty mental to think that, although I've never been to the Manchester Arena, if this had been at Hedon HSBC this afternoon I could have died. :|

[GS]

Confirmed fatalities, according to Greater Manchester Police.

[Dark Soldier]

I was in Victoria station just three days ago, so shook right now xx

EDIT: Just seen GS's post, I look a reet old cunt now.

[Samadini]

pm me if you want hun


Or is it inbox? Think I did it wrong.

[SvN]

Jesus, I fully expected this to be a load of shit over nothing.

[Gray Fox]

I reckon it's people being crushed as everyone panics and rushes out. It'll have been a room full of kids/teenagers too.

[Dark Soldier]

Definitely an explosion:

https://twitter.com/JoeAaronGregory/status/866784565821677569

[GS]

Sky News already speculating about who might have planted the bomb despite nobody knowing if it's a bomb.

[SvN]

I was about to go to bed as well. For fuck sake.

[Kikó]

Fuck sake.

[GS]

Tim Farron has denounced it as a "shocking and horrific attack targeting children", despite nobody confirming that it was, in fact, an attack and not just a gas explosion or similar.

It almost certainly is, but for fuck sake, let's at least wait for confirmation. The news channels have already gone into overdrive.

[Bernanke]

Latest reports seem to indicate a gas balloon blowing up and causing panic?

[-james-]

What's a gas balloon?

[Dark Soldier]

A balloon full of gas.

[GS]

866796952389857281

Unconfirmed.

[SvN]

866792307907055617

[Pleb]

Unconfirmed fake sources are saying that the speakers exploded so...uh...yeah dunno what to believe till a guy with a clipboard comes out with a press release shoving up the BBC/Sky's arses.

[SvN]

866797713660235777

I mean, obviously it's probably a bit too soon, but I did laugh.

[Gray Fox]

Armed police wouldn't be out for a blown speaker.

[Pleb]

:|

[Pepe]

Got to be the gas balloon. :D

[SvN]

Seeing more and more sources say at least 20 dead. The Daily Express has just tweeted it.

[Pepe]

Make them 60.

[Pepe]

It's pretty mental to think that, although I've never been to the Manchester Arena, if this had been at Hedon HSBC this afternoon I could have died. :|

Really makes you appreciate what you have doesn't it?

[Pleb]

So Holiday Inn are taking in missing children for the night according to Daily Mail.

[SvN]

A gunman apparently at Oldham hospital?!

[randomlegend]

A gunman apparently at Oldham hospital?!

https://twitter.com/OldhamCouncil/status/866803185851256833?s=09

[Gray Fox]

19 confirmed dead.

[randomlegend]

https://twitter.com/gmpolice/status/866808564316344321/photo/1

:(

Imagine bombing a concert full of kids, for fuck's sake.

[Lewis]

If these suicide bomber claims are true then this is probably a new low.

[Pepe]

How will this affect the polls?

[Lewis]

I expect we'll cancel Brexit and start speaking French.

[Pepe]

Good call. I've heard Macrunt is quite welcoming to forriners.

[Lewis]

Are you smashed mate?

[Pepe]

I wish. :(

[Bartholomert]

Horrific. How many more deaths before Europe wake up?

[Pepe]

Horrific. How many more deaths before Europe wake up?

It's almost 2am mate, people need to go to work tomorrow.

[Pen]

Horrible news to wake up to. Feels very different reading about a suicide bomber when it has happened in a city you've lived in.

And agreed. Bombing a gig full of kids is as low as it gets.

[John Arne]

This is very strange. The number of deaths was confirmed pretty quickly - but we still haven't seen any images/videos of the explosion, or heard any first hand accounts from people that saw the explosion.

Luckily Sky News are on the case, "the most horrific part of this incident is that Ariana Grande has 105m Instagram followers... she is so popular". Er, ok.

[John Arne]

Fucking hell - this is when Sky News are at their most terrible.

Interviewing a witness...

Presenter: So, what happened?
Witness: We were heading towards the foyer (where the explosion happened), but we were turned back by security because it was busy
Presenter: So you were heading to the foyer just before the explosion?
Witness: yeah, thankfully, we were turned away
Presenter: What would have happened if you weren't turned away?
Witness: Well, we may have got caught up in the explosion
Presenter: And then what would have happened to you?
Witness: Well, we would have been at the foyer when it exploded
Presenter: And what would have happened to you?
Witness: well.... we might have died.

[Shindig]

Horrific. How many more deaths before Europe wake up?

Stray retards are incredibly hard to predict. That's what makes all of this extra bullshit.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Suicide bombing teenage girls is as low as it gets.

[Shindig]

It is but, after that autistic kid left a working nailbomb on the tube as a prank, I'm not going to call this as terrorism just yet.

[Byron]

I agree with Mert, we need to wake up.

We can start contributing by banning all members from this forum of Turkish origin.

[Magic]

Can't be a nail bomb, surely?

If it is FFS Corbz.

[Shindig]

Shrapnel injuries could point to one. Or just a normal bomb in a bin or something. Attacker appears to be dead.

[Giggles]

Confirmed as a muzz.

866897900546265088

[Jimmy Floyd]

Shrapnel injuries could point to one. Or just a normal bomb in a bin or something. Attacker appears to be dead.

You're like a Durham Miss Marple.

[John Arne]

Manchester must have changed a lot since I left.

866819849913335808

[John Arne]

Death toll at 22 now.

[Magic]

Manchester must have changed a lot since I left.

866819849913335808

Depending on what area you go to it fucking is like that.

[Magic]

I was there in 2010. RIP me?

Also that video of when it goes off. You can hear the tsunami of panic slowly flood towards the camera person.

[John Arne]

Depending on what area you go to it fucking is like that.

No, it isn't.

Which places are you talking about?

[Magic]

No, it isn't.

Which places are you talking about?

Longsight etc

[Yevrah]

Thank god it isn't otherwise we'd have bombs going off every other week.

[John Arne]

Longsight etc

Yeah, there are a lot of Muslims living in Longsight - but it certainly isn't "hotbed of radicalized Islamists", otherwise, as Yev says, we'd be seeing terrorists attacks every week.

[Magic]

It is. Just you wait. This is the prophecy.

[Yevrah]

The tinder box definitely continues to ignite mind, and I don't think anyone's truly prepared for how horrible things are going to be.

[Shindig]

You're like a Durham Miss Marple.

Nah, she always finds a way for the culprits to be alive and congregated in a single room by the end of an episode.

[Henry]

Bit of a shock to wake up to. No word on who exactly the jihadi twat was yet?

[Giggles]

At least everyone can take some comfort in the fact that magic is always wrong.

[Magic]

Sorry guys Harold hacked my account.

[John Arne]

#PrayForMagic

[Giggles]

Sorry guys Harold hacked my account.

Him posting to himself with two accounts on teh refuge almost makes you feel sorry for him.

[Kikó]

Manchester has loads of predominately Muslim areas but I don't think we have a hot bed of anything.

What a coward this guy is. He could have targeted middle aged Brian Cox goers the night before but chose young teenagers.

[Lewis]

I think Ajax should do the right thing and just let United have tomorrow.

[Boydy]

The Arndale centre's been evacuated.

[Lewis]

I was going to go there today, but I returned a lost wallet to Anjem Choudary yesterday and he suggested I give it a miss.

[phonics]

866960257150529536

Scum.

[John Arne]

What on earth is going through your head when you write that note???

My editor is going to love this, imagine the reaction I get when I return to the newsroom...I'll be a hero

[GS]

Media behaviour in this country is disgraceful. Every such event merely confirms it. Morally bankrupt too often.

[phonics]

Not sure if this'll thread but the best argument you can possibly have against freedom of the press in the actions of the people in it.

866957292096376832

edit: Doesn't thread, shit. Just check: https://twitter.com/DrEm_79

[SvN]

The amount of bile on facebook today is worse than I've ever seen. I saw one of my "friends" liked a post that ended with this gem:


They keep saying deport the muslims, I say fucking hang them every last one of them

With about 20+ people saying "Agreed", "Spot on mate". This country is in serious trouble.

[Yevrah]

Suicide bombing teenage girls is as low as it gets.

I'm not sure why people are surprised about this (which isn't to say you are). Obviously comparisons to the nazi's are mental, but it must be a fair while since we had to deal with an internal threat on this level.

[Yevrah]

What a coward this guy is. He could have targeted middle aged Brian Cox goers the night before but chose young teenagers.

Again, I've heard this a lot today too as if it's some sort of surprise. It's the level of 'enemy' we're dealing with, there are no rules.

[wullie]

When I saw about all this first thing this morning, the most popular mention on Twitter after Manchester was Tommy Robinson, a load of 'told you so's going on by the looks of it.

[Yevrah]

The amount of bile on facebook today is worse than I've ever seen. I saw one of my "friends" liked a post that ended with this gem:



With about 20+ people saying "Agreed", "Spot on mate". This country is in serious trouble.

I'm on the verge of massive rant on this, but both the left, and far right cunts like that twat (and his 20 mates) have helped to allow this situation to grow unchecked in the way that it has and bafflingly they're seemingly going to continue to do so.

[GS]

There's been a failure to grasp the issue properly for decades, partly because they didn't recognise it as an issue and when they did they didn't want to deal with it.

[Henry]

I'm not sure why people are surprised about this (which isn't to say you are). Obviously comparisons to the nazi's are mental, but it must be a fair while since we had to deal with an internal threat on this level.

Terrorist attacks are not ever nice, but this is alarmist, I fear.

http://www.datagraver.com/thumbs/1300x1300r/2016-12/terror20161220-i2.png

[Lewis]

Again, I've heard this a lot today too as if it's some sort of surprise. It's the level of 'enemy' we're dealing with, there are no rules.

Which normally means putting your own rules aside long enough to annihilate them, which is what these idiots talking about the Blitz forget. Whilst everyone was Keeping Calm & Carrying On, we we preparing to give it back ten times as bad.

[Yevrah]

I fucking knew that graph would come up. :D

[John Arne]

Even the most fundamentalist of nutters has to be pretty fucking thick to imagine that their God is going to welcome them after killing 22 kids...

Well done on killing 22 innocent kids, here are some virgins and an eternal life of luxury.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Terrorist attacks are not ever nice, but this is alarmist, I fear.

http://www.datagraver.com/thumbs/1300x1300r/2016-12/terror20161220-i2.png

So basically a massive rise in the last 2-3 years after a decline when the IRA and ETA were disarmed.

[GS]

Coinciding with IS reaching its peak and the aftermath thereof.

[Pepe]

There's been a failure to grasp the issue properly for decades, partly because they didn't recognise it as an issue and when they did they didn't want to deal with it.

So what is the 'proper grasp?'

[Pepe]

Which normally means putting your own rules aside long enough to annihilate them

Is there consensus on who 'them' are?

[phonics]

The amount of websites posting pictures of dead children and trying to get people to click on their articles to see more dead kids is obscene.

Shut them all down.

[GS]

So what is the 'proper grasp?'

I don't know. If I knew, then someone in actual power would have worked it out by now, and we'd all be holidaying in Saudi.

[Pepe]

I don't know. If I knew, then someone in actual power would have worked it out by now, and we'd all be holidaying in Saudi.

What's 'it?' Terrorism?

I'm not in Europe, so it is a bit harder, but I honestly cannot think of any proper solutions. Sometimes it feels like something we need to just ride out, which is tough to accept, to say the least.

[Jimmy Floyd]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi_movement

This needs to be annihilated.

[Pepe]

How do you annihilate an idea?

[phonics]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi_movement

This needs to be annihilated.

Yeah but hating Iran is more important for some reason that I'm still not sure of.

[Giggles]

How do you annihilate an idea?

Annihilate anyone with the idea.

[randomlegend]

Annihilate anyone with the idea.

Firstly - how do you know who has these ideas? Yeah you can bangerang the preacher shouting about it on the steps of the mosque, but not the guy quietly seething and plotting away in his flat.

Secondly - if you do that, you just push all the people who may have had the potential to be susceptible to such ideas along that path.

I don't know what the fuck the solution is actually meant to be, but I don't see how "bomb the shit out of 'them'/put 'them' all to death" has a hope in hell of a positive outcome.

[GS]

What's 'it?' Terrorism?

I'm not in Europe, so it is a bit harder, but I honestly cannot think of any proper solutions. Sometimes it feels like something we need to just ride out, which is tough to accept, to say the least.

For stopping it, yes.

The one I know most about is the IRA. I grew up at the tail end of the campaign, and still remember the shootings, bombings etc. And being evacuated because some newsroom had received a call with a "recognised codeword", and that meant it was serious.

The difference was that the British state developed a sound method for defeating them. It involved infiltration of the organisation and turning IRA members into informers. The organisation was so riddled by informers it became very difficult for them to orchestrate a sustained campaign. They could still organise the occasional big event, but they were never at full unrestricted operating capacity. The SAS would also not mess about it if they needed to - " big boy games, big boy rules".

The British could have flattened the IRA completely if they'd really wanted to, but not within the confines of a democratic state operating against terrorist cells. It's not like you could do what the Sri Lankans did with the Tamil Tigers. It meant it took longer, but ultimately the IRA were put in a position where they knew they'd lost and had to negotiate. You then had understandable parameters on both sides for those discussions.

But if you look at this, what options do you have? They don't have any political goal of any kind that we can understand or that can ever really be met. They're driven by religion, not political goals. They're prepared to die in huge numbers.

So you're talking a generational effort which makes it impossible for them to operate properly. Proper, extremely well funded intelligence at all levels and less squeamishness about things like travel bans and targeted drone strikes when they're required.

There also needs to be recognition that IS simply existing is a boon for them. Not only does it afford some level of prestige, it also provide(s/d) an area where it's easy to get to and learn how to build bombs etc. It's easy to find like minded individuals, and develop cells.

I don't have all the answers, quite obviously, but watching the political class refuse to confront the issue is deeply frustrating. It has something to do with Islam, lads, and you might need to confront that alongside the operational aspects.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The first thing is explaining SPECIFICALLY what salafi Islam/jihadism is, how it differs from other sects of Islam, and educating people about the history of Islam, rather than letting broad brushstroke bollocks prevail in the discourse.

I only understood this myself when I went to SOAS and did a full year's reading on the subject in a final year course, and how many people do that, 0.5% or fewer. I'd been fed utter lazy bollocks by all previous education.

Teachers will refuse to do this though because they are so left wing. Our schools still exist in some sort of post-summer of love colonial guilt mindset where brown people = good (diverse/vibrant), white people ages ago = bad, white people now = OK but only if 'tolerant', which, by the way, is an utterly meaningless word/concept.

[Yevrah]

Right, this is the rub. And this isn't a new opinion in light of yesterday, but rather one I've held for a long time now, which grows stronger and stronger the more shit like this happens.

We have a problem, and it's a big one. I'd agree from Henry's graph that the scale of the problem currently can be overstated compared to deaths caused by the IRA and ETA, but what can't be blown out of proportion is that it's only going to get bigger. Why? A multitude of reasons.

Firstly, there is absolutely no proper effort from anyone to deal with the causes of this and stop it. I don't have all the answers by any means, but I sure as shit know that both the yoghurt knitting response of the left (and those in power), with their 'it has nothing to do with Islam' and the response of the wanker far right, who want to round every Muslim up and chuck them in channel, is achieving absolutely nothing. In fact, it's not even as good as achieving nothing - it's making things worse.

The left (and those in power) because they're facilitating an environment where people are shot down for voicing any negative opinion against Islam and the right because they're providing all the ammunition the left could ever wish for to support the need for that environment.

Secondly, and let's be real here, this has everything to with Islam - admittedly some of these absolute losers would probably be up to no good anyway, but as a recruiting vehicle and a network to provide the means and inspiration, Islam is at the absolute heart of this. Ok, so it's not a version or consequence of Islam that the vast, vast majority of Muslim's in this country practice or even agree with, but it is a version of Islam nonetheless. And that's a huge problem. I don't pretend to be anything like an expert on the IRA (or anything else for that matter, I'm Yevrah), but (and Irish members or historians please correct me if I'm wrong here) the IRA's aims were so much easier to deal with than that of the Muslim fundamentalists (who don't seem to want to stop until the West's way of life is in the minority).

The IRA also played by a rule book. Sure, if you were directly involved in the conflict the treatment met out was fucking brutal, but for all the other innocent bystanders caught up in it fair warning was given. The IRA were active for all of my childhood and I quickly lost count of the number of bombscares (both false alarm and actual) that happened during that time, but I think I'm right in saying (again correct me if I'm wrong Irish peeps) fair warning was nearly always given to innocents involved.

Still a shit situation obviously and I can only imagine what it must have been like living through it in Ireland, but it was a different enemy, and graphs including the number of people killed by the IRA vs. where we are now only serve to distort that reality. For those who disagree, ask yourself one question - what's going to change to curtail the Jihadi attacks we see now? I can't think of anything, which brings me onto my next point.

Thirdly, we have a growing Muslim population in both the UK and Europe and it's growing fast. It's only 5% of the UK now, but that still represents 3.5m people. A recent survey suggested 100,000 of British Muslims sympathise with suicide bombers, so if only 1% of those people are prepared to act on that, there's 1,000 wannabe Jihadi's we need to deal with. A number that's only going to grow as the Muslim population does.

Fourthly, 'We' and by that I men the authorities have not got a fucking scooby how to deal with this. Ok, so they seem to be pretty good at foiling attacks, but actually stopping people from wanting to perpetrate them in the first place? They haven't a clue, and how could they? Those in power are about as far removed from some loser wannabe Jihadi being indoctrinated by online nonsense as it's possible to be. The only people with the power to stop this is the Muslim community.

Fifthly, the 'Muslim community' are not doing anywhere near enough.

I was watching Question Time a while back and a young Muslim man made (what I thought at the time was) a great counter point to the panel about it being ludicrous that the 'Muslim community' is seen as one voice that can all move together to effect change. As I say, at the time his comment made a lot of sense. I'm part of the British community and you asked me to take responsibility for the BNP or slavery my first response would be "are you having a fucking laugh".

But the more I've thought about it, the more I've realised it's bollocks. This is a crude analogy so bear with me, but if I was part of the Canary Isles ex-pat British community, really enjoyed my life over there and some of our number started blowing people up in the name of fake tan and Frank Butcher I'd absolutely do more to weed that shit out, not least so I could preserve the life I enjoyed in the way it was currently. But back to the survey, only one in three British Muslims say they would contact the police if they believed someone close to them was involved with jihadists. That's over a million people who'd turn a blind eye, which frankly, is fucking shocking.

The Muslim community should be doing everything it can with its younger population to paint jihadists as complete tools, the lifestyle for losers if you will, which is never going to happen if only two thirds are prepared to shop someone they suspect of being involved in that shit.

Ultimately, if we (the authorities, people on the left and right and the Muslim community) carry on on the current trajectory I can't really see an end to this unless the Muslim population is such that 'British values' and 'British laws' are in a minority or attacks become so frequent that Muslims are subjected to East German style surveillance and internment, both of which would be absolutely awful.

Rant over, but just to leave you with one thought to sign off with. I wasn't wrong about Roberto Martinez and I won't be wrong about this - We're sleep walking into an awful future at the moment, an absolutely awful future.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey

[Henry]

How do you annihilate an idea?

You cut off the funds to the madrassas that teach it, which overwhelmingly come from Saudi Arabia. But apparently we have to be best mates with them instead, because reasons.

[randomlegend]

...some of our number started blowing people up in the name of fake tan and Frank Butcher...

I wasn't wrong about Roberto Martinez and I won't be wrong about this...

:D

[phonics]

Right, this is the rub. And this isn't a new opinion in light of yesterday, but rather one I've held for a long time now, which grows stronger and stronger the more shit like this happens.

We have a problem, and it's a big one. I'd agree from Henry's graph that the scale of the problem currently can be overstated compared to deaths caused by the IRA and ETA, but what can't be blown out of proportion is that it's only going to get bigger. Why? A multitude of reasons.

Firstly, there is absolutely no proper effort from anyone to deal with the causes of this and stop it. I don't have all the answers by any means, but I sure as shit know that both the yoghurt knitting response of the left (and those in power), with their 'it has nothing to do with Islam' and the response of the wanker far right, who want to round every Muslim up and chuck them in channel, is achieving absolutely nothing. In fact, it's not even as good as achieving nothing - it's making things worse.

The left (and those in power) because they're facilitating an environment where people are shot down for voicing any negative opinion against Islam and the right because they're providing all the ammunition the left could ever wish for to support the need for that environment.

Secondly, and let's be real here, this has everything to with Islam - admittedly some of these absolute losers would probably be up to no good anyway, but as a recruiting vehicle and a network to provide the means and inspiration, Islam is at the absolute heart of this. Ok, so it's not a version or consequence of Islam that the vast, vast majority of Muslim's in this country practice or even agree with, but it is a version of Islam nonetheless. And that's a huge problem. I don't pretend to be anything like an expert on the IRA (or anything else for that matter, I'm Yevrah), but (and Irish members or historians please correct me if I'm wrong here) the IRA's aims were so much easier to deal with than that of the Muslim fundamentalists (who don't seem to want to stop until the West's way of life is in the minority).

The IRA also played by a rule book. Sure, if you were directly involved in the conflict the treatment met out was fucking brutal, but for all the other innocent bystanders caught up in it fair warning was given. The IRA were active for all of my childhood and I quickly lost count of the number of bombscares (both false alarm and actual) that happened during that time, but I think I'm right in saying (again correct me if I'm wrong Irish peeps) fair warning was nearly always given to innocents involved.

Still a shit situation obviously and I can only imagine what it must have been like living through it in Ireland, but it was a different enemy, and graphs including the number of people killed by the IRA vs. where we are now only serve to distort that reality. For those who disagree, ask yourself one question - what's going to change to curtail the Jihadi attacks we see now? I can't think of anything, which brings me onto my next point.

Thirdly, we have a growing Muslim population in both the UK and Europe and it's growing fast. It's only 5% of the UK now, but that still represents 3.5m people. A recent survey suggested 100,000 of British Muslims sympathise with suicide bombers, so if only 1% of those people are prepared to act on that, there's 1,000 wannabe Jihadi's we need to deal with. A number that's only going to grow as the Muslim population does.

Fourthly, 'We' and by that I men the authorities have not got a fucking scooby how to deal with this. Ok, so they seem to be pretty good at foiling attacks, but actually stopping people from wanting to perpetrate them in the first place? They haven't a clue, and how could they? Those in power are about as far removed from some loser wannabe Jihadi being indoctrinated by online nonsense as it's possible to be. The only people with the power to stop this is the Muslim community.

Fifthly, the 'Muslim community' are not doing anywhere near enough.

I was watching Question Time a while back and a young Muslim man made (what I thought at the time was) a great counter point to the panel about it being ludicrous that the 'Muslim community' is seen as one voice that can all move together to effect change. As I say, at the time his comment made a lot of sense. I'm part of the British community and you asked me to take responsibility for the BNP or slavery my first response would be "are you having a fucking laugh".

But the more I've thought about it, the more I've realised it's bollocks. This is a crude analogy so bear with me, but if I was part of the Canary Isles ex-pat British community, really enjoyed my life over there and some of our number started blowing people up in the name of fake tan and Frank Butcher I'd absolutely do more to weed that shit out, not least so I could preserve the life I enjoyed in the way it was currently. But back to the survey, only one in three British Muslims say they would contact the police if they believed someone close to them was involved with jihadists. That's over a million people who'd turn a blind eye, which frankly, is fucking shocking.

The Muslim community should be doing everything it can with its younger population to paint jihadists as complete tools, the lifestyle for losers if you will, which is never going to happen if only two thirds are prepared to shop someone they suspect of being involved in that shit.

Ultimately, if we (the authorities, people on the left and right and the Muslim community) carry on on the current trajectory I can't really see an end to this unless the Muslim population is such that 'British values' and 'British laws' are in a minority or attacks become so frequent that Muslims are subjected to East German style surveillance and internment, both of which would be absolutely awful.

Rant over, but just to leave you with one thought to sign off with. I wasn't wrong about Roberto Martinez and I won't be wrong about this - We're sleep walking into an awful future at the moment, an absolutely awful future.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey

1000 words to say 'I don't know, lock them all up. I'd pretend to feel bad about it for a bit but meh.'

[Pepe]

Teachers will refuse to do this though because they are so left wing. Our schools still exist in some sort of post-summer of love colonial guilt mindset where brown people = good (diverse/vibrant), white people ages ago = bad, white people now = OK but only if 'tolerant', which, by the way, is an utterly meaningless word/concept.

That shit is not left wing. It is moronic. It is as left wing as racism is right wing.

[Jimmy Floyd]

https://twitter.com/EamonnHolmes/status/866839600265932801

I think this is right up there with the most disgraceful tweets of all time.

[randomlegend]

Should drunk drivers be executed?

Absolutely.

[randomlegend]

https://twitter.com/EamonnHolmes/status/866839600265932801

I think this is right up there with the most disgraceful tweets of all time.

Look at him going at it in the follow up comments as well. What a fucking cunt.

[phonics]

https://twitter.com/EamonnHolmes/status/866839600265932801

I think this is right up there with the most disgraceful tweets of all time.

Eamonn needs narrative. Feed the beast. Disgusting. Sack him.

[Yevrah]

1000 words to say 'I don't know, lock them all up. I'd pretend to feel bad about it for a bit but meh.'

I'm confused. Are you saying that's what I think? If so, did you actually read what I wrote?

[Henry]

Seriously, read this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-yousaf-butt-/saudi-wahhabism-islam-terrorism_b_6501916.html

An excerpt.


How does Saudi Arabia go about spreading extremism? The extremist agenda is not always clearly government-sanctioned, but in monarchies where the government money is spread around to various princes, there is little accountability for what the royal family does with their government funds. Much of the funding is via charitable organizations and is not military-related.

The money goes to constructing and operating mosques and madrassas that preach radical Wahhabism. The money also goes to training imams; media outreach and publishing; distribution of Wahhabi textbooks, and endowments to universities and cultural centers. A cable released by Wikileaks explains, regarding just one region of Pakistan:

"Government and non-governmental sources claimed that financial support estimated at nearly 100 million USD annually was making its way to Deobandi and Ahl-e-Hadith clerics in the region from “missionary” and “Islamic charitable” organizations in Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates ostensibly with the direct support of those governments."

Although the Wahhabi curriculum was modified after the 9/11 attacks, it remains backward and intolerant. Freedom House published a report on the revised curriculum, concluding that it “continues to propagate an ideology of hate toward the ‘unbeliever,’ which include Christians, Jews, Shiites, Sufis, Sunni Muslims who do not follow Wahhabi doctrine, Hindus, atheists and others.” This is taught not only domestically but also enthusiastically exported abroad.

Of course, initially there was complicity with the U.S. and Pakistan in promoting this ideology to counter the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. In addition to the radical indoctrination, thousands of volunteer jihadis from Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries were also dispatched to fight alongside the mujahideen in Afghanistan. But it remains a complicated problem to this day because the politicians in the poor countries getting the Saudi and Gulf-Arab funds approve these extremist madrassas in part because the local authorities likely receive kickbacks.

In many places in poor Muslim countries the choice is now between going to an extremist madrassa or getting no education at all. Poverty is exploited to promote extremism. The affected areas include Pakistan, Indonesia, the Philippines, Malaysia, Thailand, India and parts of Africa.

There's an elephant in the room here, and there's no point in pretending we don't know how to address the problem, or at least how to get a start.

[Pepe]

Right, this is the rub. And this isn't a new opinion in light of yesterday, but rather one I've held for a long time now, which grows stronger and stronger the more shit like this happens.

We have a problem, and it's a big one. I'd agree from Henry's graph that the scale of the problem currently can be overstated compared to deaths caused by the IRA and ETA, but what can't be blown out of proportion is that it's only going to get bigger. Why? A multitude of reasons.

Firstly, there is absolutely no proper effort from anyone to deal with the causes of this and stop it. I don't have all the answers by any means, but I sure as shit know that both the yoghurt knitting response of the left (and those in power), with their 'it has nothing to do with Islam' and the response of the wanker far right, who want to round every Muslim up and chuck them in channel, is achieving absolutely nothing. In fact, it's not even as good as achieving nothing - it's making things worse.

The left (and those in power) because they're facilitating an environment where people are shot down for voicing any negative opinion against Islam and the right because they're providing all the ammunition the left could ever wish for to support the need for that environment.

Secondly, and let's be real here, this has everything to with Islam - admittedly some of these absolute losers would probably be up to no good anyway, but as a recruiting vehicle and a network to provide the means and inspiration, Islam is at the absolute heart of this. Ok, so it's not a version or consequence of Islam that the vast, vast majority of Muslim's in this country practice or even agree with, but it is a version of Islam nonetheless. And that's a huge problem. I don't pretend to be anything like an expert on the IRA (or anything else for that matter, I'm Yevrah), but (and Irish members or historians please correct me if I'm wrong here) the IRA's aims were so much easier to deal with than that of the Muslim fundamentalists (who don't seem to want to stop until the West's way of life is in the minority).

The IRA also played by a rule book. Sure, if you were directly involved in the conflict the treatment met out was fucking brutal, but for all the other innocent bystanders caught up in it fair warning was given. The IRA were active for all of my childhood and I quickly lost count of the number of bombscares (both false alarm and actual) that happened during that time, but I think I'm right in saying (again correct me if I'm wrong Irish peeps) fair warning was nearly always given to innocents involved.

Still a shit situation obviously and I can only imagine what it must have been like living through it in Ireland, but it was a different enemy, and graphs including the number of people killed by the IRA vs. where we are now only serve to distort that reality. For those who disagree, ask yourself one question - what's going to change to curtail the Jihadi attacks we see now? I can't think of anything, which brings me onto my next point.

Thirdly, we have a growing Muslim population in both the UK and Europe and it's growing fast. It's only 5% of the UK now, but that still represents 3.5m people. A recent survey suggested 100,000 of British Muslims sympathise with suicide bombers, so if only 1% of those people are prepared to act on that, there's 1,000 wannabe Jihadi's we need to deal with. A number that's only going to grow as the Muslim population does.

Fourthly, 'We' and by that I men the authorities have not got a fucking scooby how to deal with this. Ok, so they seem to be pretty good at foiling attacks, but actually stopping people from wanting to perpetrate them in the first place? They haven't a clue, and how could they? Those in power are about as far removed from some loser wannabe Jihadi being indoctrinated by online nonsense as it's possible to be. The only people with the power to stop this is the Muslim community.

Fifthly, the 'Muslim community' are not doing anywhere near enough.

I was watching Question Time a while back and a young Muslim man made (what I thought at the time was) a great counter point to the panel about it being ludicrous that the 'Muslim community' is seen as one voice that can all move together to effect change. As I say, at the time his comment made a lot of sense. I'm part of the British community and you asked me to take responsibility for the BNP or slavery my first response would be "are you having a fucking laugh".

But the more I've thought about it, the more I've realised it's bollocks. This is a crude analogy so bear with me, but if I was part of the Canary Isles ex-pat British community, really enjoyed my life over there and some of our number started blowing people up in the name of fake tan and Frank Butcher I'd absolutely do more to weed that shit out, not least so I could preserve the life I enjoyed in the way it was currently. But back to the survey, only one in three British Muslims say they would contact the police if they believed someone close to them was involved with jihadists. That's over a million people who'd turn a blind eye, which frankly, is fucking shocking.

The Muslim community should be doing everything it can with its younger population to paint jihadists as complete tools, the lifestyle for losers if you will, which is never going to happen if only two thirds are prepared to shop someone they suspect of being involved in that shit.

Ultimately, if we (the authorities, people on the left and right and the Muslim community) carry on on the current trajectory I can't really see an end to this unless the Muslim population is such that 'British values' and 'British laws' are in a minority or attacks become so frequent that Muslims are subjected to East German style surveillance and internment, both of which would be absolutely awful.

Rant over, but just to leave you with one thought to sign off with. I wasn't wrong about Roberto Martinez and I won't be wrong about this - We're sleep walking into an awful future at the moment, an absolutely awful future.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey

You're just saying 'someone do something!' Of course, no suggestions of what that something might be are ever given, apart from 'kill them all.'


You cut off the funds to the madrassas that teach it, which overwhelmingly come from Saudi Arabia. But apparently we have to be best mates with them instead, because reasons.

The Saudi Arabia love really is disgusting.

I have only heard the whole 'nothing to do with Islam' thing here. Is it a British thing?

[Yevrah]

https://twitter.com/EamonnHolmes/status/866839600265932801

I think this is right up there with the most disgraceful tweets of all time.

Ok, Eamonn Holmes joins John Terry 'I don't understand him' corner.

Absolutely unbelievable sequence of tweets.

[Yevrah]

You're just saying 'someone do something!' Of course, no suggestions of what that something might be are ever given, apart from 'kill them all.'


I didn't once mention killing anyone and there's a whole fucking paragraph on how I think the Muslim community should do more.

Unbelievable.

[phonics]

I'm confused. Are you saying that's what I think? If so, did you actually read what I wrote?

You literally didn't list a single piece of action outside of internment camps and Muslims snitching on each other (which they do, all the time, how do you think they're foiling all these attacks?).

[Yevrah]

Seriously, those responses from Phonics and Pepe are symptomatic of the issue at hand.

"Lock them all up" "Throw away the key" hurled back at anyone with an opinion that doesn't fit their 140 character led, left tasting view of the world.

[Yevrah]

You literally didn't list a single piece of action outside of internment camps and Muslims snitching on each other (which they do, all the time, how do you think they're foiling all these attacks?).

You clearly can't read.

Which bit of this leads you to believe I'm advocating internment?



Ultimately, if we (the authorities, people on the left and right and the Muslim community) carry on on the current trajectory I can't really see an end to this unless the Muslim population is such that 'British values' and 'British laws' are in a minority or attacks become so frequent that Muslims are subjected to East German style surveillance and internment, both of which would be absolutely awful.

[John Arne]

I didn't once mention killing anyone and there's a whole fucking paragraph on how I think the Muslim community should do more.

Unbelievable.

Yev - do you accept that US and UK foreign policy also don't help (for example, us going around bombing predominately Muslim countries into the dark ages every 5 years)?

[Offshore Toon]

The one thing we haven't tried for a while is to stop pissing about in the Middle East.

[Magic]

Yev - do you accept that US and UK foreign policy also don't help (for example, us going around bombing predominately Muslim countries into the dark ages every 5 years)?

Lol at the insinuation they aren't already (voluntarily) in the Dark Ages.

[Yevrah]

Yev - do you accept that US and UK foreign policy also don't help (for example, us going around bombing predominately Muslim countries into the dark ages every 5 years)?

Yep - It's a twat strategy.

EDIT: Actually, it's not even a strategy, it's just doing something for the sake of being seen to be doing something.

[GS]

Saudi Arabia is founded on the twin pillars of the House of Saud and Wahhabism. I wish it was as easy as just internationally ostracising them, but I think it would make it worse.

[Henry]

Seriously, those responses from Phonics and Pepe are symptomatic of the issue at hand.

"Lock them all up" "Throw away the key" hurled back at anyone with an opinion that doesn't fit their 140 character led, left tasting view of the world.

Get the fuck out of here with this "left" shit. The Tories have been in government for several years.

[Pepe]

I didn't once mention killing anyone and there's a whole fucking paragraph on how I think the Muslim community should do more.

Unbelievable.

I didn't say you suggested killing anyone. I said that is the only solution ever offered (not by you.) Muslim community 'doing more' is hardly specific. Not that I blame you for not having an answer, I certainly don't either.

Fuck off with your '140 character led, left tasting view of the world.' I don't even use Twitter.

[Pepe]

The one thing we haven't tried for a while is to stop pissing about in the Middle East.

We should do that whether it decreases terrorism or not.

[Offshore Toon]

You say Saudi Arabia is the problem (and it is to an extent) but Bin Laden spoke out against Saudi Arabia because of their relationship with America. Its not that simple. A lot of them are still very pissed off about Israel, too. As far as they're concerned that was an attack on Muslim land, so they're justified in their retaliations.

[Yevrah]

Get the fuck out of here with this "left" shit. The Tories have been in government for several years.

I did say 'people in power' in the longer post. Phonics and Pepe are prime examples of the rabid wank the left come out with on this issue though.

Oh and I agree with you on Saudi Arabia, our relationship with them (and therefore tacit condoning of their actions) should be a source of shame.

[Offshore Toon]

We should do that whether it decreases terrorism or not.
Indeed. We should get everybody together in a Haxball server and just Plebroll it out.

[phonics]

Para beginning with firstly - 'Do something between 'Nothing to do with Islam' and 'Chuck them in the sea'' - The two 'lefty twitter wankers' or however you're describing Pepe and I spend far as much time seething at Saudi Arabia and their specific brand of Islam as anyone. So we're already doing that.

Para beginning with secondly - 'The IRA had a political point, these people don't' - Cheers mate, welcome to 2001.

Para beginning with thirdly - 'The Muslim population is growing' - Okay, what would you like to do about that?

Para beginning with fourthly - 'The intelligence agencies don't understand todays generation' - Actually, they probably do better than you. MI5 prioritises hiring second generation Brits of middle eastern descent over anyone at this point. If you're a smart guy from Bradford, MI5 want to talk to you and will pay you well to work for them.

Para beginning with fifth - Muslims need to start snitching. - As I said above, they already do.

Everything after that - 'If we don't do the above the only solution will end up like the Stasi and internment camps' - Oh fuck off.

Any salient points I missed there Yev?

[phonics]

You say Saudi Arabia is the problem (and it is to an extent) but Bin Laden spoke out against Saudi Arabia because of their relationship with America. Its not that simple. A lot of them are still very pissed off about Israel, too. As far as they're concerned that was an attack on Muslim land, so they're justified in their retaliations.

Bin Ladens anger wasn't at being friendly with America, it was that in the first Gulf War, the House of Saud allowed 'unbelievers' (in the view of Wahhabism) to walk in Mecca. Which is viewed as the ultimate betrayal of the religion.

[Henry]

You say Saudi Arabia is the problem (and it is to an extent) but Bin Laden spoke out against Saudi Arabia because of their relationship with America. Its not that simple. A lot of them are still very pissed off about Israel, too. As far as they're concerned that was an attack on Muslim land, so they're justified in their retaliations.

It isn't that the Saudi's directly ally with these fuckers though, it's that they fund the system that creates them. There are obviously a lot of facets, that's one of the primary ones. It needs to stop.

But let's sell them some more weapons instead, and then ostrasise anyone who complains as not understanding the real world or whatever.

[Yevrah]

I can't converse with you Phonics, your posting style and random accusations make it impossible to do so.

[Yevrah]

I didn't say you suggested killing anyone. I said that is the only solution ever offered (not by you.) Muslim community 'doing more' is hardly specific. Not that I blame you for not having an answer, I certainly don't either.

Fuck off with your '140 character led, left tasting view of the world.' I don't even use Twitter.

I said in the post that I don't have (m)any solutions, the point of it was to outline the seriousness of the situation we find ourselves in, which some people want to downplay.

Serious question, where do you think things will end up?

[GS]

I can't converse with you Phonics, your posting style and random accusations make it impossible to do so.

It's because he doesn't know what he's talking about.

[randomlegend]

Neither do any of us when it comes to an issue like this, really.

[Yevrah]

It's because he doesn't know what he's talking about.

He's quite bright when he puts his mind to it, but I'm too old and lazy now to get into multi-quote shit-offs with someone who could read my post in such a way that they would think I was advocating internment.

[Offshore Toon]

It isn't that the Saudi's directly ally with these fuckers though, it's that they fund the system that creates them. There are obviously a lot of facets, that's one of the primary ones. It needs to stop.

But let's sell them some more weapons instead, and then ostrasise anyone who complains as not understanding the real world or whatever.
As much as they're funding mosques that house radical preachers, that's probably an area where the Muslim community could get involved. I don't know, though, maybe they are. I've never been to one.

If you have a Muslim that reads the likes of Mawdudi, Qutb and Faraj and genuinely believes what they read then there's not much you can do. There are clear instructions to set up a vanguard away from society and attack the the 'ignorant' (which includes Muslims) until they've won. All nondivine rulers are usurping the power of God, so its Shari'a or bust for them.

[Henry]

I said in the post that I don't have (m)any solutions, the point of it was to outline the seriousness of the situation we find ourselves in, which some people want to downplay.

Serious question, where do you think things will end up?

Why does it have to "end up" somewhere? You've still more chance of being killed crossing the road.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Using the word 'snitching' to mean reporting crime aligns you with all sorts of unmentionables.

[Magic]

It's a shame @Kiko isn't a huge Arianda fan.

[Yevrah]

Neither do any of us when it comes to an issue like this, really.

Yep - It's an absolute minefield.

Maybe I have a posting style that lends itself to people thinking that I think I arrogantly have all the answers, I would have thought there were enough caveats in there to show that I don't. The point of the post was to respond to Henry's graph argument (which I've seen cited by loads of people who IMHO are downplaying the issue) and not to provide a document that the next government could use as a blueprint to stop jihadis.

[7om]

Why does it have to "end up" somewhere? You've still more chance of being killed crossing the road.

Because there's a difference between the human error involved in being run over and the process that leads to what we saw last night. The latter would have an endpoint, you'd hope.

[Yevrah]

Why does it have to "end up" somewhere? You've still more chance of being killed crossing the road.

Everything ends Henners, everything.

And not if I'm good/careful at crossing the road I don't.

[Henry]

Because there's a difference between the human error involved in being run over and the process that leads to what we saw last night. The latter would have an endpoint, you'd hope.

Well, no. Despite the (understandable) loss of perspective here, occasional terrorist attacks can continue indefinitely without either our society changing much or the terrorists deciding to stop. There's no inherent logic that states that this is leading anywhere in particular.

[Pepe]

Phonics and Pepe are prime examples of the rabid wank the left come out with on this issue though.

What 'rabid wank' have I come up with? I think we have very different ideas of what 'the left' is. Of course, you are the kind of person who complains about 'the right' being all labeled racists, yet you think 'the left' is all concerned with identity politics and 'nothing to do with Islam' (which again, I have never heard anywhere but here. Even here, it is only used by people claiming it is what 'the left' does, even though I don't remember anyone in here suggesting it has 'nothing do do with Islam.')

I preferred Le Pen over Macron ffs.


Serious question, where do you think things will end up?

I don't think they will end up. Certainly not any time soon. I think attacks will probably continue, although unlike you I think they will slowly decrease as organizations such as ISIS lose their power/appeal, which I don't think is sustainable. I am just guessing here, of course.

A government system that prevented people to fall into endless poverty spirals would help, mind.

[Yevrah]

There are some pictures and names of dead kids on the BBC front page now, so I assume Eamonn Holmes can sleep easy tonight.

[Spammer]

I don't know what the fuck the solution is actually meant to be, but I don't see how "bomb the shit out of 'them'/put 'them' all to death" has a hope in hell of a positive outcome.

Makes us feel better tho innit. It'll do something positive for morale which counts for a lot these days.

Nuke em all! Woo woo!

[phonics]

Yep - It's an absolute minefield.

Maybe I have a posting style that lends itself to people thinking that I think I arrogantly have all the answers, I would have thought there were enough caveats in there to show that I don't. The point of the post was to respond to Henry's graph argument (which I've seen cited by loads of people who IMHO are downplaying the issue) and not to provide a document that the next government could use as a blueprint to stop jihadis.

Who's downplaying terrorism? That's why I don't understand the post you made above, who's it speaking to?

[Pepe]

And not if I'm good/careful at crossing the road I don't.

It's easy to downplay the number of deaths caused by motor vehicle accidents. No one seems interested to do anything about them, that's for sure. As if it is something we just have to live with.

[Pepe]

Who's downplaying terrorism? That's why I don't understand the post you made above, who's it speaking to?

The left mate, the left.

[7om]

Fucking hell, apparently there are people posting fake missing persons messages all over Twitter. One lad got found out and replied that he's "finally getting the fame I deserve."

[Yevrah]

Who's downplaying terrorism? That's why I don't understand the post you made above, who's it speaking to?

Why does a post need to be speaking to anyone? There was no quote, so can't it just be read?

[phonics]

The left mate, the left.

If only the left were as almighty and powerful as everyone outside of it ascribes it.

[Spammer]

For stopping it, yes.

The one I know most about is the IRA. I grew up at the tail end of the campaign, and still remember the shootings, bombings etc. And being evacuated because some newsroom had received a call with a "recognised codeword", and that meant it was serious.

The difference was that the British state developed a sound method for defeating them. It involved infiltration of the organisation and turning IRA members into informers. The organisation was so riddled by informers it became very difficult for them to orchestrate a sustained campaign. They could still organise the occasional big event, but they were never at full unrestricted operating capacity. The SAS would also not mess about it if they needed to - " big boy games, big boy rules".

The British could have flattened the IRA completely if they'd really wanted to, but not within the confines of a democratic state operating against terrorist cells. It's not like you could do what the Sri Lankans did with the Tamil Tigers. It meant it took longer, but ultimately the IRA were put in a position where they knew they'd lost and had to negotiate. You then had understandable parameters on both sides for those discussions.

But if you look at this, what options do you have? They don't have any political goal of any kind that we can understand or that can ever really be met. They're driven by religion, not political goals. They're prepared to die in huge numbers.

So you're talking a generational effort which makes it impossible for them to operate properly. Proper, extremely well funded intelligence at all levels and less squeamishness about things like travel bans and targeted drone strikes when they're required.

There also needs to be recognition that IS simply existing is a boon for them. Not only does it afford some level of prestige, it also provide(s/d) an area where it's easy to get to and learn how to build bombs etc. It's easy to find like minded individuals, and develop cells.

I don't have all the answers, quite obviously, but watching the political class refuse to confront the issue is deeply frustrating. It has something to do with Islam, lads, and you might need to confront that alongside the operational aspects.

That stuff about the methods for doing in the IRA sounds interested. You know any good books on that kind of thing?

[Yevrah]

It's easy to downplay the number of deaths caused by motor vehicle accidents. No one seems interested to do anything about them, that's for sure. As if it is something we just have to live with.

I get a bit lost when people start comparing being blown up at an Ariane Grande concert with dying at the wheel of a car. What's the point here exactly? People die on the roads, so we should just let jihadis run amok?

[Jimmy Floyd]

The quickest fix I can think of is a massive Trump Tower and golf complex in the middle of the Levant.

[Yevrah]

Who's downplaying terrorism? That's why I don't understand the post you made above, who's it speaking to?


The left mate, the left.

Well we've somehow ended up at a juncture where the number of deaths on the road have been brought into things and I'm pretty sure I didn't open a door for that one.

[Pepe]

I get a bit lost when people start comparing being blown up at an Ariane Grande concert with dying at the wheel of a car. What's the point here exactly? People die on the roads, so we should just let jihadis run amok?

One has nothing to do with the other. I just wanted to outline the seriousness of the situation, which some people want to downplay.

[phonics]

One has nothing to do with the other. I just wanted to outline the seriousness of the situation, which some people want to downplay.

rekt.

In what world can you be living where you think that 'jihadis are running amok' at this point in time? Outside of the 'caliphate' in Iraq ofc (quite literally our fault in that case)

[Henry]

I get a bit lost when people start comparing being blown up at an Ariane Grande concert with dying at the wheel of a car. What's the point here exactly? People die on the roads, so we should just let jihadis run amok?

The point is:
That in the grand scheme of things, outside of media attention, this doesn't have that much effect on us.
That we aren't hysterical about road deaths, so shouldn't be about terrorism. Apart from anything else it's what the likes of ISIS wants.

You are, it has to be said, behaving quite hysterically.


https://ethicsalarms.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/think-of-the-children.jpg

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

I get a bit lost when people start comparing being blown up at an Ariane Grande concert with dying at the wheel of a car. What's the point here exactly? People die on the roads, so we should just let jihadis run amok?

'More people are killed by X each year than in terrorist incidents ha ha lol relax.'

Accidents and shit will always happen, X is invariably something that isn't hell bent on killing people.

[Pepe]

'More people are killed by X each year than in terrorist incidents ha ha lol relax.'

Accidents and shit will always happen, X is invariably something that isn't hell bent on killing people.

That's what American gun nuts use as an argument, funnily enough.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The road deaths/terrorism argument I think is what will finally drag western civilisation under.

[Pepe]

The road deaths/terrorism argument I think is what will finally drag western civilisation under.

Under what?

[Henry]

That's what American gun nuts use as an argument, funnily enough.

Yeah, but we're not asking to legalise terrorism. Just to see it in a bit of context, and to question why you have the reaction you do.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The metaphorical water to metaphorically drown.

[Bernanke]

Under what?

One of the cars.

[Pepe]

Yeah, but we're not asking to legalise terrorism. Just to see it in a bit of context, and to question why you have the reaction you do.

I meant the 'accidents happen, there is nothing we can do!' argument. 'Guns don't kill people!'

[Henry]

I meant the 'accidents happen, there is nothing we can do!' argument. 'Guns don't kill people!'

That's not the argument though. We can do something.

[Yevrah]

I don't get the argument at all Henners, but it's so ludicrous to me that I can't adequately articulate a response as to why. The best I can say is that I make a conscious choice when I get in a car in weighing up the risks and level of control over the situation that I have, safe in the knowledge that the car won't actively try and kill me. But ultimately it's not about how likely I am to die via explosion at an Ariana Grande concert (less likely than any other means of death I'd suggest), more that I'd rather this shit wasn't happening and with this being a messageboard I've decided to post about that.

Perhaps Pepe's post on the American gun nuts using the same argument sums it up best.

[Pepe]

The road deaths/terrorism argument I think is what will finally drag western civilisation under.

I wll agree that it is mostly a shit argument. With that said, it does make you wonder why some deaths are more important than others. If I was run over while riding my bicycle, it would be thrown into the 'shit happens' drawer. Someone gets bombed and it deserves international response. Funnily enough, the road death is an issue we could actually solve, if our concern was death. But clearly it is not about death, but about the symbolic nature of it. I don't think one is more important than the other, or that they should be compared. I would like it if we tried to solve both. One we could, the other I am not too sure.

[Pepe]

That's not the argument though. We can do something.

I know. That's my point. See above post.

[Yevrah]

Yeah, but we're not asking to legalise terrorism. Just to see it in a bit of context, and to question why you have the reaction you do.

The reaction of saying it's a bit shit on a messageboard and if it continues to grow (which I think it will) this country won't be a nice place to do things in.

You'd have more of a point if I'd said I'd bought a flak jacket that I wear out.

[phonics]

I think we do absolutely loads though. You've got less rights than you had 20 years ago specifically because they are doing something. The only question is how far are you willing to go, and if that doesn't prevent it then how much further do you go?

[Offshore Toon]

The Muslim community should be doing everything it can with its younger population to paint jihadists as complete tools, the lifestyle for losers if you will, which is never going to happen if only two thirds are prepared to shop someone they suspect of being involved in that shit.
He may not be part of the Muslim community but Trump has called them losers. :cool:

[7om]

The point is:
That in the grand scheme of things, outside of media attention, this doesn't have that much effect on us.


Yes, but you're coming at this completely detached. If little Johnny walks out in front of the school bus and gets mowed down after school completely by accident of course it is a tragedy. But if little Johnny goes to the concert last night and gets blown up by a guy who set out to murder as many people as possible, can you see why there might be outrage and hysterical thinking?

There's not much you can do about the bus scenario except stick an extra lollipop lady outside the school. This is far more complex and emotive but you don't seem to be able to grasp that.

[Yevrah]

I wll agree that it is mostly a shit argument. With that said, it does make you wonder why some deaths are more important than others. If I was run over while riding my bicycle, it would be thrown into the 'shit happens' drawer. Someone gets bombed and it deserves international response. Funnily enough, the road death is an issue we could actually solve, if our concern was death. But clearly it is not about death, but about the symbolic nature of it. I don't think one is more important than the other, or that they should be compared. I would like it if we tried to solve both. One we could, the other I am not too sure.

Surely you can see the difference in response is down to the fact that humans generally don't like intentional inhuman acts being committed against one another.

Out of interest, how do we solve road deaths?

[Henry]

The reaction of saying it's a bit shit on a messageboard and if it continues to grow (which I think it will) this country won't be a nice place to do things in.

You'd have more of a point if I'd said I'd bought a flak jacket that I wear out.

You didn't just say it was a bit shit though. You said that we're "sleep walking into an awful future". I disagree, since that overstates the scale of the problem. It's not as if you're being shot at every time you go down the pub. Hence the car argument.

[John]

This equivalence being drawn between car accidents and terrorist attacks is one of the most outright stupid things I've seen go on here in quite a while, and I'm including Smiffy and Giggles in that.

[Lewis]

The best comparison is with communism, which was responsible for many of the deaths on that graph. You can only let the ideas run their course, since anybody who prefers them to what the West can offer is a write-off; but in the meantime you can obliterate anything and everything that provides succour and inspiration to those ideas. The obviously place to start would be in removing all traces of the Islamic State from the Earth, after which point you would have to move to isolate the Saudis and the Qataris.

[Henry]

Yes, but you're coming at this completely detached. If little Johnny walks out in front of the school bus and gets mowed down after school completely by accident of course it is a tragedy. But if little Johnny goes to the concert last night and gets blown up by a guy who set out to murder as many people as possible, can you see why there might be outrage and hysterical thinking?

There's not much you can do about the bus scenario except stick an extra lollipop lady outside the school. This is far more complex and emotive but you don't seem to be able to grasp that.

If road deaths received the same kind of coverage as terrorists attacks do, then people would be banging on about taking cars off the road, making them safer, imposing heavy sentences for all sorts of misdemeanors and whatever else they could think of. But instead, they're happy to live with the small amount of risk.

Of course, and I repeat, that's not to say that nothing can be done on terrorism. But people don't want to deal with the elephant in the room - which I highlighted - either. They appear to just want to vent.

[Yevrah]

I think we do absolutely loads though. You've got less rights than you had 20 years ago specifically because they are doing something. The only question is how far are you willing to go, and if that doesn't prevent it then how much further do you go?

Which I think is back to the point I was making about East Germany and internment, absolutely not suggesting that either should be done, but that I could conceive of a situation where they were.

I think we've had it easy for too long (which isn't actually very long at all in the grand scheme of things), but I'm constantly surprised by how much people allude to the status quo not changing - "we don't need nuclear weapons as there's no one with them who would want to attack us" being the classic example.

[Henry]

For fuck sake.


This equivalence being drawn between car accidents and terrorist attacks is one of the most outright stupid things I've seen go on here in quite a while, and I'm including Smiffy and Giggles in that.

There's no "equivalence", and it is intentionally obtuse to pretend that one is being drawn.
The similarity is in the small number of deaths. There are obvious differences.

[Pepe]

Surely you can see the difference in response is down to the fact that humans generally don't like intentional inhuman acts being committed against one another.

I totally understand the difference in response. It is all about emotions. Objectively, a death is a death, but we all struggle with objectivity when it comes to such issues. I definitely don't want to downplay terrorism, which is a grave issue,


Out of interest, how do we solve road deaths?

Many things you can do. In short, designing our cities in such a way that pedestrians, cyclists, and mass transport are the priority, as opposed to cars. There is, of course, the inconvenience aspect for car drivers. Then again, most don't seem to mind giving up lots of freedoms in the name of terrorism, but something tells me they would fight if, say, they lost a lane and the speed limit was reduced in a commercial area.

[John]

If road deaths received the same kind of coverage as terrorists attacks do, then people would be banging on about taking cars off the road, making them safer, imposing heavy sentences for all sorts of misdemeanors and whatever else they could think of. But instead, they're happy to live with the small amount of risk.

:D

A genuinely stunning bout of pure lunacy. You are no longer to be taken seriously on this subject.

[Pepe]

The best comparison is with communism, which was responsible for many of the deaths on that graph. You can only let the ideas run their course, since anybody who prefers them to what the West can offer is a write-off; but in the meantime you can obliterate anything and everything that provides succour and inspiration to those ideas. The obviously place to start would be in removing all traces of the Islamic State from the Earth, after which point you would have to move to isolate the Saudis and the Qataris.

Not surprised moar war is your solution. I do agree on letting the ideas run their course.

[Dark Soldier]

How the fuck has this gone on to road deaths? Sort yaselves out, fucking hell.

[Henry]

:D

A genuinely stunning bout of pure lunacy. You are no longer to be taken seriously on this subject.

Yeah, just continue with the hand-wringing and public emoting instead. :rolleyes:

[Yevrah]

You didn't just say it was a bit shit though. You said that we're "sleep walking into an awful future". I disagree, since that overstates the scale of the problem. It's not as if you're being shot at every time you go down the pub. Hence the car argument.

A situation where the UK Is divided into Extremist Muslims, Muslims, Non Muslims and Extremist non-Muslims, with attacks from the two extremes against the other and involving the two groups in the middle as targets would be awful. You obviously think there's no chance of that happening, while I think we're not a million miles away from being on a path to get there.

[7om]

If road deaths received the same kind of coverage as terrorists attacks do, then people would be banging on about taking cars off the road, making them safer, imposing heavy sentences for all sorts of misdemeanors and whatever else they could think of. But instead, they're happy to live with the small amount of risk.

Of course, and I repeat, that's not to say that nothing can be done on terrorism. But people don't want to deal with the elephant in the room - which I highlighted - either. They appear to just want to vent.

I think this may be my first time debating with you and it will surely be my last. I can see why people get so frustrated with you now. As I said, there's a difference between human error and intent to murder and this affects emotion on the subject.

[Henry]

A situation where the UK Is divided into Extremist Muslims, Muslims, Non Muslims and Extremist non-Muslims, with attacks from the two extremes against the other and involving the two groups in the middle as targets would be awful. You obviously think there's no chance of that happening, while I think we're not a million miles away from being on a path to get there.

Civil war, then?

See, this is what people should be ridiculing rather than attempts to put the scale of the problem in a bit of context.

[Pepe]

A situation where the UK Is divided into Extremist Muslims, Muslims, Non Muslims and Extremist non-Muslims, with attacks from the two extremes against the other and involving the two groups in the middle as targets would be awful. You obviously think there's no chance of that happening, while I think we're not a million miles away from being on a path to get there.

Seems a bit far-fetched to be honest. Depends on what you mean by divided of course.

[Henry]

I think this may be my first time debating with you and it will surely be my last. I can see why people get so frustrated with you now. As I said, there's a difference between human error and intent to murder and this affects emotion on the subject.

Precisely the difference I've been attempting to highlight, in fact.

[Dark Soldier]

It doesn't need to be 'put into context', I'm sure the people posting in here are smart enough not to have to weigh it up against something which has no relation to a terrorist attack. You're a fucking cretin, Henry.

[phonics]

Which I think is back to the point I was making about East Germany and internment, absolutely not suggesting that either should be done, but that I could conceive of a situation where they were.

I think we've had it easy for too long (which isn't actually very long at all in the grand scheme of things), but I'm constantly surprised by how much people allude to the status quo not changing - "we don't need nuclear weapons as there's no one with them who would want to attack us" being the classic example.

Yes but if you said, here or preferably the staus quo of about 7-8 years ago is where I'd rather be, you'd be called an appeaser who's weak on terrorism.

This shit will happen, I'm not willing to destroy the lives of hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) of people to prevent the deaths of a couple hundred over a decade.

[Henry]

It doesn't need to be 'put into context', I'm sure the people posting in here are smart enough not to have to weigh it up against something which has no relation to a terrorist attack. You're a fucking cretin, Henry.

It does, in fact, need to be put into context when people are talking about it being a threat to our way of life and so forth. It only becomes that if we decide to react by changing our way of life.

[Yevrah]

Civil war, then?

See, this is what people should be ridiculing rather than attempts to put the scale of the problem in a bit of context.

I'm not talking about next Tuesday ffs, I mean at a time when I'll probably be long dead.

[Dark Soldier]

Not bombing the living fuck out of the homes of people in the middle east in the claim of fighting terror would help somewhat, no fucking wonder people sign up when everything you know is being turned into rubble.

[John]

Yeah, just continue with the hand-wringing and public emoting instead. :rolleyes:

Where am I doing those things? There's middle ground between shouting that the world is ending and trivialising this stuff to the point where you're putting it on par with road traffic accidents. I don't think Yev is quite doing the former, but you're sure as shit doing the latter and thoroughly embarrassing yourself.

It doesn't matter how many people are killed, there's no comparison to be made. People 'accept the small' risk of having cars around because they provide a material benefit to most people's lives, and when someone is hurt or killed with the involvement of one there's generally no malice involved, someone just fucked up, or a light failed, or the weather got in the way. There's no reason to 'accept the small risk' of fucking terrorism, and trying to draw an equivalence with traffic accidents - which you have done, intentionally or not, by talking about the media responses being largely to blame for why the two are treated so differently - is pathetic.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm the last person to use Nazi comparisons, but 'letting the ideas run their course' was basically what Super Stan Baldwin and Ramsay Macdonald were up to in the 1930s.

[Pepe]

It does, in fact, need to be put into context when people are talking about it being a threat to our way of life and so forth. It only becomes that if we decide to react by changing our way of life.

That I agree with.

[Henry]

I'm not talking about next Tuesday ffs, I mean at a time when I'll probably be long dead.

Projecting something that (again as per the graph) has become a serious problem for a few years at best forward a century is equally wrongheaded.

[7om]

Precisely the difference I've been attempting to highlight, in fact.

Not really. You said if road deaths got the same kind of coverage terrorist attacks do then the public would be equally as outraged and be calling for cars to be taken off the road. I'm telling you that that is bollocks.

[phonics]

Not bombing the living fuck out of the homes of people in the middle east in the claim of fighting terror would help somewhat, no fucking wonder people sign up when everything you know is being turned into rubble.

This, every drone attack kills 9 civilians for every 1 target killed. If the US bombed my families car on their way to a wedding because they thought that maybe someone who may do something dangerous against them at some point in the future might be there? I'd be volunteering to go fuck them up all day.

[Pepe]

Where am I doing those things? There's middle ground between shouting that the world is ending and trivialising this stuff to the point where you're putting it on par with road traffic accidents. I don't think Yev is quite doing the former, but you're sure as shit doing the latter and thoroughly embarrassing yourself.

It doesn't matter how many people are killed, there's no comparison to be made. People 'accept the small' risk of having cars around because they provide a material benefit to most people's lives, and when someone is hurt or killed with the involvement of one there's generally no malice involved, someone just fucked up, or a light failed, or the weather got in the way. There's no reason to 'accept the small risk' of fucking terrorism, and trying to draw an equivalence with traffic accidents - which you have done, intentionally or not, by talking about the media responses being largely to blame for why the two are treated so differently - is pathetic.

You are trivializing road deaths, to be fair. I for one don't think we should just shrug off the 'small risk.' It is a separate discussion though.

[Pepe]

Not bombing the living fuck out of the homes of people in the middle east in the claim of fighting terror would help somewhat, no fucking wonder people sign up when everything you know is being turned into rubble.

Would probably help, although as I said before, it is something we should do whether it helps with terrorism or not.

[Henry]

Where am I doing those things? There's middle ground between shouting that the world is ending and trivialising this stuff to the point where you're putting it on par with road traffic accidents. I don't think Yev is quite doing the former, but you're sure as shit doing the latter and thoroughly embarrassing yourself.

It doesn't matter how many people are killed, there's no comparison to be made. People 'accept the small' risk of having cars around because they provide a material benefit to most people's lives, and when someone is hurt or killed with the involvement of one there's generally no malice involved, someone just fucked up, or a light failed, or the weather got in the way. There's no reason to 'accept the small risk' of fucking terrorism, and trying to draw an equivalence with traffic accidents - which you have done, intentionally or not, by talking about the media responses being largely to blame for why the two are treated so differently - is pathetic.

Again with the misrepresentation. If you actually read what I wrote rather than reacting with apoplexy to what you think I did, we'd save ourselves a lot of time.
Get it clear - the risk should not be accepted and something should be done. Nevertheless, the likelihood of being killed by a terrorist is smaller than that of being killed by a car, and we should measure our actions appropriately with that in mind. i.e. we don't paralyse the country with police actions, or start interning brown people.

[Lewis]

Not surprised moar war is your solution. I do agree on letting the ideas run their course.

I'm generally against overseas intervention, but it can still be a practical option (we could sub-contract most of it out anyway) as a precursor to a more sustainable diplomatic/economic re-alignment.

[Dark Soldier]

One of my step-bros best mates has been named as dead now, John Atkinson from Radcliffe, seen the Facebook post.

Fuck's sake.

[7om]

You are trivializing road deaths, to be fair. I for one don't think we should just shrug off the 'small risk.' It is a separate discussion though.

Risk:benefit is massive, though. In the world of pharmaceuticals you may have to accept a certain number of side effects to experience the therapeutic effect you are seeking. Any drug you put into your body could potentially be harmful and yet millions of people shrug off that risk every day, and rightfully so, because the benefits will largely outweigh the risks.

How in the fuck have we got to this point? TTH :drool:

[Spammer]

Again with the misrepresentation. If you actually read what I wrote rather than reacting with apoplexy to what you think I did, we'd save ourselves a lot of time.
Get it clear - the risk should not be accepted and something should be done. Nevertheless, the likelihood of being killed by a terrorist is smaller than that of being killed by a car, and we should measure our actions appropriately with that in mind. i.e. we don't paralyse the country with police actions, or start interning brown people.

The underlying point you were making seemed pretty obvious, to be honest.

Edit: As in, I don't really know how it got misconstrued to such a ridiculous extent.

[Kikó]

All these arrests happening 5 minutes from my parents house. Grim.

[Dquincy]

All these arrests happening 5 minutes from my parents house. Grim.

Do you think they're complicit?

Also, this thread turned to shit when GS, Jimmy and Yev turned up. Stop with the essays about boring shit. Stick with quick and punchy.

[Kikó]

Go jump in a river.

[7om]

Do you think they're complicit?

Also, this thread turned to shit when GS, Jimmy and Yev turned up. Stop with the essays about boring shit. Stick with quick and punchy.

Don't you have a successful life to be tending to?

[Spammer]

Yeah the levels of condescension went through the roof at one point. Lollard.

[John]

Again with the misrepresentation. If you actually read what I wrote rather than reacting with apoplexy to what you think I did, we'd save ourselves a lot of time.
Get it clear - the risk should not be accepted and something should be done. Nevertheless, the likelihood of being killed by a terrorist is smaller than that of being killed by a car, and we should measure our actions appropriately with that in mind. i.e. we don't paralyse the country with police actions, or start interning brown people.

I'm far from apoplectic, I'm delighted that you've gone off on this mad, stupid tangent. It's very funny.

If that's the whole point you were trying to make then you should choose your words more carefully in future, because it's not the one you've made over the course of the thread. Even your original post on the subject was saying that terrorist attacks are no different to car crashes in that there needn't be an endgame.

[Henry]

I'm far from apoplectic, I'm delighted that you've gone off on this mad, stupid tangent. It's very funny.

If that's the whole point you were trying to make then you should choose your words more carefully in future, because it's not the one you've made over the course of the thread. Even your original post on the subject was saying that terrorist attacks are no different to car crashes in that there needn't be an endgame.

I haven't really said anything else other than that in what I've posted. So until you tell me what specific statement I've made that is wrong, I can't really argue.

[Adamski]

I can't converse with you Phonics, your posting style and random accusations make it impossible to do so.

I don't tend to bother much with these threads - there's usually too many virgins who think they know how to run a country posting - but what a takedown this is from Yev.

Fair play to phonics for carrying on and still not making any sense, I'd have left the board.

[Pepe]

I'm generally against overseas intervention, but it can still be a practical option (we could sub-contract most of it out anyway) as a precursor to a more sustainable diplomatic/economic re-alignment.

Got more details on the re-alignment?

[Lewis]

It's mostly chumming up with Iran.

[Shindig]

We're going to have to hope the extremists bomb themselves out. We can't attack them because, unless they're involved in something like Syria, they're far too nebulous and spread out. Doing the boring "Community leaders" route is probably your best bet, although dumb teens will always rebel against authority.

[Pepe]

It's mostly chumming up with Iran.

But Donald told me Iran was bad to the bones.

[Pleb]

So basically in a nutshell...

Blame Pleb.

[phonics]

Don't embrace the meme.

[Spikey M]

Can we unban Harold for the day? For a good ol' Hazza vs Henners show down?

[Offshore Toon]

Can we unban Harold for the day? For a good ol' Hazza vs Henners show down?
He's been addressing people on Teh Refuge. The only person that responded was Henry.

[Lewis]

But Donald told me Iran was bad to the bones.

The Israelis are scared of Hezbollah (and also the NARRATIVE is shifting from blaming Syria on Russia), but they're big enough to look after themselves, so fuck them.

[John]

Can we unban Harold for the day? For a good ol' Hazza vs Henners show down?

I'd rather unban drink driving.

[Shindig]

That'd be class, actually. One day of it. National "Made it Home" Day.

[Magic]

I'd rather unban drink driving.

What a cunt you are. Could have made a joke about terrorism but had to put the real killer and threat to our national identity in there. Bastard.

[John]

Well done, Magic. You got at least half the joke.

Some walloper has pitched up at the Birmingham vigil with a baseball bat and an axe and forced them to clear the place out. I reckon there's something else to come.

[7om]

http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article10485983.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/DQP_BEM_230517VIGIL_24JPG.jpg

[Magic]

Well done, Magic. You got at least half the joke.

Some walloper has pitched up at the Birmingham vigil with a baseball bat and an axe and forced them to clear the place out. I reckon there's something else to come.

This is good for me.

[Lewis]

'Daws'.jpg

Never.

[GS]

The terror threat level has been raised to critical, indicating a further attack is "imminent" rather than just "likely". The army will be on the streets to free up more police for patrol.

[Pepe]

Might as well do a France and set an indefinite 'state of emergency.' Because laws be damned.

[Shindig]

I swear in my years working in the passport building, we never changed out of amber alert.

[Henry]

He's been addressing people on Teh Refuge. The only person that responded was Henry.

What? No I didn't.

[Lewis]

Smiffy had a right seethe as well until he deleted it.

[Offshore Toon]

What? No I didn't.
You definitely turned up recently and said some stuff.

[Offshore Toon]

Smiffy had a right seethe as well until he deleted it.
I thought Smiffy had given Harold his TR account as well, but it seems he's just gone a bit more mental.

[Henry]

You definitely turned up recently and said some stuff.

I called him a loser or something a couple of weeks ago. I'm not stopping by today to debate with him, which is what you sounded like you were saying.

[Giggles]

I thought Smiffy had given Harold his TR account as well, but it seems he's just gone a bit more mental.

That's definitely Harold talking to himself. The style of the other account isnt Smiffy.

[Adamski]

Is Smiffy banned from here again?