The Middle East and co (*sponsored by Mel Gibson*)

[Lewis]

We all know what's gone down over the past few years, but things may be changing. The Russians have realised they can do what they want now (because what, we might put sanctions on them?) and have tipped a load of equipment, experts, and even complete bases into Syrian government strongholds. By all accounts the Syrians are loving this new equipment, and some Russian foreign affairs bod (http://english.pravda.ru/news/world/25-09-2015/132137-china-0/) has claimed that the Chinese have sent a cruiser to join the anti-ISIS campaign with an aircraft carrier to follow. If that is true, then lol at whatever it is we've been trying to achieve there.

[GS]

It's a shambles on the part of the west. As always.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The Xinjiang crew have no doubt hardened the Chinese resolve.

We (the West) are just soft as fuck nowadays. Iraq has broken us I think.

[Multi]

"The West" could easily wipe out ISIS, Al-Qaida and every/any other group that ever existed, but don't because it's nice to have bad guys as a threat to control their own populaces through fear mongering.

Is that common knowledge or a conspiracy theory?

[Yevrah]

They couldn't easily wipe them out so it's a nothing statement.

[Lee]

We couldn't wipe them out since it's impossible to destroy an idea, but if we went balls deep we could destroy ISIS as it exists now within a couple of months. We've taken whole countries in about as little time. They're properly backwards cunts. We just have no desire to go balls deep. Imagine the outcry when they started beheading British soldiers live on YouTube?

[Yevrah]

I'm no military expert, I'm Yevrah, but I think people seriously underestimate how hard it is to invade a country and wipe out a determined force of people.

[Magic]

Fucking lol @ the US trained rebels joining Al Qaeda. That's what happens when you deal with cowardly zealots. The ones that have the balls to fight aren't fighting for a greater good. The others are coming over to outbreed otherwise excellent nations.

[Multi]

Hitler was pretty determined.

[Lee]

What a shit example that took years. :D

[Lewis]

Uncle Sam could roll them back into their strongholds within weeks of a proper ground invasion. It might then prove difficult to coax them all out of houses and cellars and stop roadside bombs popping up all over, as was the constant pain in the arse in Iraq, but if you were that bothered you would just flatten the settlements and (literally) take no prisoners. But we're not bothered. Plus we have our 'values' and can't really be seen doing that sort of thing.

It might sound simple (possibly deceptively so), but all you really have to do is kill enough people. It would hardly be unprecedented to just kill everybody associated with a group/idea in the name of establishing a secure state. ISIS themselves have done it.

[Yevrah]

But that's what I'm saying, I don't think killing enough people would be all that easy to do.

[Yevrah]

That said, watching uncle Sam have a crack would be something I'd probably pay to see.

Not normally a fan of war, but watching the tanks roll in pursuit of this particular brand of scum would be pretty satisfying.

[Multi]

Me too.

What are Turkey currently up to? Don't they(/we) have a pretty big army? Is Turkey part of "The West" yet? I'd like to see what would happen if they'd go balls deep.

[Magic]

No and it never will be. Are you really this out of touch on world affairs?

[Multi]

I haven't watched the news in years so yes.

[QE Harold Flair]

"The West" could easily wipe out ISIS, Al-Qaida and every/any other group that ever existed, but don't because it's nice to have bad guys as a threat to control their own populaces through fear mongering.

Is that common knowledge or a conspiracy theory?

A conspiracy theory.

[Lewis]

But that's what I'm saying, I don't think killing enough people would be all that easy to do.

Not for us, but the Syrians wouldn't have any issue with it. They have form (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Hama_Islamic_uprising) there. Similarly, look how Saddam Hussein put down those rebellions (that we encouraged and left hanging) after the Gulf War.

[GS]

We could probably turn a blind idea whilst Assad (supported by Russian ground forces) rolled them over. Trying to support "moderate rebels" is a waste of time.

This also demonstrates the utter fucking folly of stating your support for "the rebels" against an existing regime / state when you have no idea who they actually are. We shouldn't really be interfering in the internal affairs of another country in this fashion. It gets you nowhere, and merely limits later options.

[phonics]

Me too.

What are Turkey currently up to? Don't they(/we) have a pretty big army? Is Turkey part of "The West" yet? I'd like to see what would happen if they'd go balls deep.

Turkey are giving money/weapons to ISIS to keep the Kurds down. It's a mess basically.

[Magic]

What do the Soviets have to gain apart from making the west look stupid?

[phonics]

Access to the Mediterranean and a guy on their side in the Middle East.

[Magic]

In the shape of Assad and a nation that's had most of its citizens evacuated?

[Magic]

Its ripe for an annexing of the whole fucking lot to be honest. Enter Iran. :drool:

The Zionists are as bad as any Islamic threat.

[Disco]

It's a presence, the yanks have Israel up their bums so Comrade Putin wants his own puppet in the region. Syria is a good opportunity to get into a country that (pre-war) wasn't a complete clusterfuck shithole.

[phonics]

And Assad did love to buy a few weapons.

[Lewis]

http://i60.tinypic.com/sb7lzt.jpg

[Henry]

Going "balls deep" would require wiping out much of the Sunni population of Iraq and Syria, which may appeal to some, but not to me.

There are other things that might be done, but "the west" doesn't really give a fuck, at least not as much of a fuck as they give about their priorities in the region, which mainly amount to controlling the oil supply by keeping the Saudi's and Israelis happy.

[Magic]

Why can't we just wipe the Shi'ites out too? Equality.

[QE Harold Flair]

The Saudis chairing the UN Huiman Rights is proper lol. The UN is corrupt as fuck, just as everything else seems to be.

[Lewis]

You don't have to wipe them out. You can just repress them. Failing that, I don't see why population transfers are never seen as a practical alternative. It certainty calmed Europe down in 1945 (we could do it safer now as well), and if you identify with your faith/ethnicity more than your country why is getting bum-rushed into Saudi Arabia such a big deal?

[Spoonsky]

I'd love to see Obama and Putin in a 1-on-1 fight (for world supremacy or otherwise).

[Lewis]

It's nice to see the Taliban back in the news. Say what you want about that mob, but they're well up for it.

[Magic]

I'd rather not have points for telling the truth so here we go: WELL DONE SAUDI ARABIA.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7f1_1443533612

Hit a wedding in Yemen and killed at least 131 people. Fucking clowns.

[phonics]

I'd rather not have points for telling the truth so here we go: WELL DONE SAUDI ARABIA.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7f1_1443533612

Hit a wedding in Yemen and killed at least 131 people. Fucking clowns.

It's much better when we do it.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/gregorydjohnsen/wedding-party-drone-strike#.uhl1olJle

[niko_cee]

Mohammed killed more than that at the Hajj last week.

[Lewis]

The Saudi Army, recruited as it is from tents and ditches as a means of binding far-flung areas into the state payroll, has by all accounts been laughably shit throughout all of this. Whenever the goat herders they're bombing have got in their faces they've shat the bed and left their box-fresh American equipment behind, so they're probably better off hammering weddings.

[Lewis]

The Saudi Arabian Foreign Minister sez: 'There is no future for Assad in Syria. There are two options for a settlement in Syria. One option is a political process where there would be a transitional council. The other option is a military option, which also would end with the removal of Bashar al-Assad from power. This could be a more lengthy process and a more destructive process but the choice is entirely that of Bashar al-Assad'.

Oof. OOF. If it goes up. :drool:

[Magic]

Russians have just wasted 34 civs in Homs.

Apparently they aren't even targetting IS targets, just ABA (Anyone But Assad).

[QE Harold Flair]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/9730954.jpg

[Magic]

Here's some Russian 'pin-point' bombing:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1e4_1443635484

:cab:

[Magic]

Also incredible lol @ Putin telling the US it better not get in it's way, and even more lol @ them targetting the US backed rebels. :cool:

[Henry]

Word from Georgia and elsewhere is that the Russians are pretty shit as a fighting force these days, other than as usual having numbers on their side.

[Magic]

Word from everywhere. If there was an executive with balls in the White House the Ruskies wouldn't be anywhere near Syria.

[Lewis]

Russia knows we're (quite rightly) not actually bothered. Why they are is another mystery entirely.

[Yevrah]

What's your take on why they are?

It's not as if they can even attempt to show the US up by attempting to end ISIS if all they're going to do is drone bomb civilians.

[phonics]

Isn't it the same story as ever with Putin? Showing 'strong leadership in the face of America' and shutting up whatever nutter is bothering him this week to stay in power?

[QE Harold Flair]

What's your take on why they are?

It's not as if they can even attempt to show the US up by attempting to end ISIS if all they're going to do is drone bomb civilians.

It will be claimed they're civilians whether they are or not. Unfortunately I don't think the Russians will care as much about that nonsense as most of our soppy cunts do.

[Lewis]

It's obvious why they want to protect Syria. It gives them a satellite in the Middle East/Mediterranean. I just can never get my head around why they think they need one of those. They don't need oil. They don't need gas. The Americans are slowly pulling out of it all, so they're not undermining their interests like they were during the Cold War when you could bung a crate of AK-47s to some idiots and cause all sorts of mayhem. What is in the superpower game for them?

[phonics]

You're such a fucking twat.

edit: Out the way Lewis. I'm trying to have a dig here.

[QE Harold Flair]

Again, as at least the Saint can see, you add nothing.

[mikem]

It's obvious why they want to protect Syria. It gives them a satellite in the Middle East/Mediterranean. I just can never get my head around why they think they need one of those. They don't need oil. They don't need gas. The Americans are slowly pulling out of it all, so they're not undermining their interests like they were during the Cold War when you could bung a crate of AK-47s to some idiots and cause all sorts of mayhem. What is in the superpower game for them?

It makes even less strategic sense as it involves actively annoying Saudi Arabia who helped us put Russia's economy into a tailspin. There is the upcoming great Iranian Hezbollah weapons weapons bazaar for them to make a mint in, but both the Saudi's and Iranians depressing the price of oil and Chinese desperation to secure cheap oil as their economy slows will put a dent in those profits.

You are a historian, so tell me if I am completely wrong. I've always thought that we miss part of what the Putins are up to because of differences in legitimacy. Foreign policy in democracies is often captured by institutions instead of politicians because there are no votes in it. Diplomats and militaries prefer stability and can win the backroom argument because handling Syrian refugees well won't keep you in power. However, one Willie Horton loses you the election. Unless there is an external shock policy tends towards inertia and long term rational strategic positions. The opposite is true for Putins because their legitimacy questions end with grainy trial footage and executions. Leading to politicians capturing foreign policy and pursuing it for their own ends instead of pure national interest. It works ok, until they pull a Saddam and over calibrate.

At least that is what I keep telling myself.

[mikem]

It's obvious why they want to protect Syria. It gives them a satellite in the Middle East/Mediterranean. I just can never get my head around why they think they need one of those. They don't need oil. They don't need gas. The Americans are slowly pulling out of it all, so they're not undermining their interests like they were during the Cold War when you could bung a crate of AK-47s to some idiots and cause all sorts of mayhem. What is in the superpower game for them?

It makes even less strategic sense as it involves actively annoying Saudi Arabia who helped us put Russia's economy into a tailspin. There is the upcoming great Iranian Hezbollah weapons weapons bazaar for them to make a mint in, but both the Saudi's and Iranians depressing the price of oil and Chinese desperation to secure cheap oil as their economy slows will put a dent in those profits.

You are a historian, so tell me if I am completely wrong. I've always thought that we miss part of what the Putins are up to because of differences in legitimacy. Foreign policy in democracies is often captured by institutions instead of politicians because there are no votes in it. Diplomats and militaries prefer stability and can win the backroom argument because handling Syrian refugees well won't keep you in power. However, one Willie Horton loses you the election. Unless there is an external shock policy tends towards inertia and long term rational strategic positions. The opposite is true for Putins because their legitimacy questions end with grainy trial footage and executions. Leading to politicians capturing foreign policy and pursuing it for their own ends instead of pure national interest. It works ok, until they pull a Saddam and over calibrate.

At least that is what I keep telling myself when I think "Why are they?".

[phonics]

Mikem taking his 'Best New Poster' tag from the old place and running with it :cool:

[Lewis]

I prefer the argument that Saudi Arabia was actually after your shale margins to remind you that you needed them more than the Iranians. Had they been after Russia it seems to me that they would have started flooding the oil markets before they did. Besides, isn't Russia more gas dependent? I did like that theory that the Qataris' involvement in Syria was down to the regime blocking their proposed pipeline to Europe that would have cut Russia out.

I would have it the other way around. I think there are votes in it (or at least the politicians think there are), and whilst institutions in both systems of government have control of foreign and defence policy-making, certainly in relation to its implementation, I would have thought autocracies provide a more stable environment for long-term ('rational' if you will) policy preferences (which can also be a negative, particularly in other areas [economic policy?]). It might just appear that autocrats can use it for their own ends because they don't have to spend months getting it through Congress and watering it down. So this stuff in Syria for example seems to be well and truly 'owned' by Vladimir Putin, but it does make sense according to their senseless wider policy.

[mikem]

I'm not even Yevrah, I'm just mikem. I remember oil prices dropping at roughly the same time we cut Russia off from the US banking system, so I assumed the moves were roughly in concert. However, I don't follow that closely enough to know if I have that timeline right. If we are in bed with anyone other than the Saudis we are not being very pragmatic. For the foreseeable future they will have the power to shift oil prices. Our shale oil is mostly a cyclical boom bust industry that happens at higher ends of the price band. It is not a solution to anything. If it was the US would be run on oil from Canadian tarpits - they have truly obscene levels of oil that is simply too expensive to process.

I was trained as an economist, so I don't really think that our legislative or executive branches set the level of economic activity. The Fed does that, our politicians really only affect the composition. I get where you are coming from on foreign policy, but I think the votes are in the image instead of the details. I think you only lose votes on the details, particularly if those details are put in place. But that could simply be because politicians never do what I want.

[Lewis]

From what I was reading I got that the shale industry was taking a bit of a kick-in, but the major start-up costs are all out the way these days, and technology is getting better at a ridiculous rate, so all it was really doing was consolidating things a bit and making it (being a new market and hit 'n' miss) all even more efficient. Ambrose Evans-Pritchard has written some good articles on it if you've got a bit of time to kill.

[Luca]

What do you do, mikem? I vaguely remember you mentioning something in the PE/VC space?

[QE Harold Flair]

I'm off to read about the shale business. Good night.

[phonics]

Well done Harold, getting up to date on largely no longer relevant economic stories.

[QE Harold Flair]

That's why you're known as 'Moronics'.

[phonics]

And yet somehow more informed than you. Can't wait for you to copy/paste a few articles about this in a month or two.

[QE Harold Flair]

I shale let you know why you're an idiot tomorrow.

[mikem]

Luca

I am the juniorist of junior partners in a privately held venture capital fund. I run the Southwest US region. So I spend a week every month in wonderful places like Albuquerque, Provo, Dallas, and Santa Fe.
Lewis
Interesting. I know they always used to pop up at a certain price point and then fell off after a certain price point, but if they truly solved the price equation, then they have something.

[phonics]

Isn't the whole point in the Shale Wars that anything below $65 a barrel is a loss for them, hence the cut to 60?

[Luca]

mikem - that's really cool. I founded a startup last year as part of a competition, and our mentor was a partner at a VC firm, and learning from him has led VC to become an area I'm pretty interested in long-term. I'm a ways away from you, but I'd love to pick your brain sometime.

[Spoonsky]

Luca

I am the juniorist of junior partners in a privately held venture capital fund. I run the Southwest US region. So I spend a week every month in wonderful places like Albuquerque, Provo, Dallas, and Santa Fe.
Lewis
Interesting. I know they always used to pop up at a certain price point and then fell off after a certain price point, but if they truly solved the price equation, then they have something.

Provo is pretty idyllic if you ignore the population. Come to Salt Lake much?

[Davgooner]

How long before a US/British/French special forces unit is hit then?

[Magic]

Iran are preparing a ground offensive to work with the Russian carpet bombing.

Time to leave and see how it pans out.

[Luke Emia]

At least if Iran get involved it's getting sorted out in some way shape or form and there's no reason for the west to get involved.

Either that or it's the start of a new Cold War.

[Lewis]

Benjamin Netanyahu told the UN earlier that Iran are looking to nuke Europe and America. Don't go full retard, mate. This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVnNuhKJKMI) was good though.

[Magic]

Yes but the Saudis want Assad removed, by force if necessary. They might be the joker in the pack. I don't think Assad and the rest will win, he'll never be a legitimate leader so he'll just constantly have a divided, warring nation. They need to sort their own shit out.

[Luca]

Geezer on the top left is trying to keep from making eye contact with anyone, because he looks primed to burst out into laughter.

[mikem]

Luca

Sure, anytime. I'll never be a regular poster due to work and kids, but .... Congrats on the competition. University incubation program?

@ Spoonsky

I'm from Louisiana and live in Arizona - the people could be worse. Much worse. I only end up in places where we have a project running, so I have not been in Salt Lake City for a while. Utah is not so bad, but a strange culture clash. The first time I went I asked why "Elder" was such a common Mormon name because of the name tags.

@ Lewis

You dismissed my last political theory, but I have another. Male politicians with aggressive combovers like Trump and Bibi make for extra lunatic politicians because their delusion that they have hair makes them susceptible to other kinds of delusional thinking. This one I am sure is a winner.

[Henry]

I was in Arizona for about 5 minutes when I visited the Grand Canyon. :cool:

[Lewis]

You dismissed my last political theory, but I have another. Male politicians with aggressive combovers like Trump and Bibi make for extra lunatic politicians because their delusion that they have hair makes them susceptible to other kinds of delusional thinking. This one I am sure is a winner.

Similarly, the actual balds (Putin) have nothing to lose because nobody respects them anyway. Nailed it.

[Lewis]

These military actions constitute a further escalation and will only fuel more extremism and radicalization. We call on the Russian Federation to immediate cease its attacks on the Syrian opposition and civilians and to focus its efforts on fighting ISIL.

Signed: France, Germany, Qatar, Saudi Arabia(!), Turkey(!!), Britain, and America.

It's hard to know where to start with that one. Maybe with the argument that supporting unpopular regimes 'will only fuel more extremism and radicalization'. Is that the official line now? Because, lads...

[QE Harold Flair]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YllyBr_4Kxk/hqdefault.jpg

[Magic]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34448942

Time to get suited and booted, lads. Let's hope they don't chuck us untrained losers in first.

[Toby]

I'm sure they'll have non-combat roles for engin... Oh.

[Magic]

My colleague was an ex-fibre engineer in 'stan. He was also a gunner on Humvee patrols. :cool:

[Yevrah]

Bit slow here, but I now understand why Russia are doing this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34448942

For the lols and to demonstrate that no-one can, or is prepared, to stop them.

[Spoonsky]

Meanwhile, America is standing up to Putin by bombing a hospital.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/04/world/asia/afghanistan-bombing-hospital-doctors-without-borders-kunduz.html?_r=0

[Yevrah]

Air strikes really are total shit.

[Henry]

They had full knowledge of where the hospital was, having been repeatedly informed, and conducted a sustained 90 minute attack on it from the air.

Their justification seems to have shifted from the usual "collateral damage" to the claim that Taliban were active within the premises (denied by staff and irrelevant anyway since it's still against the Geneva Convention to attack a hospital).

I'd speculate that the hospital was treating Taliban members and the US/Afghan authorities wanted to send a message that they weren't going to allow that.

Calls for an independent enquiry have been predictably rejected, so instead we get to have another case where the perpetrator investigates itself.

[Spoonsky]

I found this to be an interesting look at the Syrian conflict:

http://i.imgur.com/TieZz93.png

[elth]

Bit slow here, but I now understand why Russia are doing this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34448942

For the lols and to demonstrate that no-one can, or is prepared, to stop them.

To be fair, neither NATO nor the US+friends should probably be bothered about "stopping" Russia over a mess like Syria. If we're going to try punching Putin in the nose, best to do it over something the West actually has an interest in.

[Lewis]

This (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/21466-israel-to-provide-russia-with-intelligence-about-syrian-opposition) says Israel is going to provide intelligence to Russia so it can bash people in more effectively. The Israelis love Assad really. They always have.

[phonics]

And it's yet another shot at Obama from Bibi. Although considering Iran and Russia are on the same side of this, maybe not.

[Lewis]

Russian ships hammering people from the Caspian Sea (thousand miles away) is pretty cool as well.

[Magic]

Russian ships hammering people from the Caspian Sea (thousand miles away) is pretty cool as well.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e42_1444222522

:drool:

[Lewis]

It's getting increasingly lively in Israel. People always want to declare the 'Third Intifada', but then they're worried about looking daft when it dies down.

[QE Harold Flair]

It's all a bit like my historic victory on immigration. Being right meant a worse country, being wrong meant not being right.

[Lewis]

The Palestinians did warn against forced multiculturalism to be fair.

[GS]

It's getting increasingly lively in Israel. People always want to declare the 'Third Intifada', but then they're worried about looking daft when it dies down.

The Third Intifada looks likely here. As you say, "lively" is the word.

[Magic]

Erm...apparently Turkey have shot down a Russian jet on a bombing run because it violated it's airspace.

[Jimmy Floyd]

That's a bullshit twitter thing.

[Davgooner]

The Russian effort continues to be pretty massive. 64 raids yesterday alone:http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/10/syria-airstrikes-russia-reports-64-missions-isis-24-hours

[QE Harold Flair]

They've really putin the effort.

[Magic]

So...how long before one of these long range Russian rockets takes down a passenger jumbo?

[Benny]

When's your next flight?

:yn:

[Magic]

Sorry mate I wouldn't venture outside Europe. Too tight.

[Lewis]

The Kurds are committing war crimes (https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/10/syria-us-allys-razing-of-villages-amounts-to-war-crimes/). Ethnic nationalists in settling scores shocker. Wake up, lads.

[phonics]

There's Malware on the site I got it from so I'm just going to quote it.


Saudi Clerics Call For Jihad Against Assad, Russia and Iran in Syria

By Jack Moore 10/6/15 at 5:35 PM

Russia opens door to bombing Iraq

MiG-29 jet fighters of the Russian aerobatic team Strizhi (The Swifts) perform during the MAKS International Aviation and Space Salon in Zhukovsky outside Moscow, Russia, August 30. Russia began airstrikes against targets in Syria last week.Maxim Zmeyev/Reuters
Dozens of Saudi Arabian clerics and academics released a statement on Monday, calling on the world's Sunni Muslims to "hurry" to Syria, to fight jihad against the Syrian government and its Russian and Iranian allies. They also called on Sunni governments to "give all moral, material, political and military" support to the effort to defeat the Syrian leader.

Fifty-two Saudis issued the joint statement, demanding that all able-bodied Muslims from both Saudi Arabia and elsewhere, answer the call of jihad and fight alongside Sunni extremist groups in Syria against Assad's regime and the Iranian and Russian forces. Iran follows the Shiite strand of Islam and is competing for influence in the region with Sunni superpower Saudi Arabia.


"This is a real war on Sunnis, their countries and their identities," said the statement. "The holy warriors of Syria are defending the whole Islamic nation. Trust them and support them... because if they are defeated, God forbid, it will be the turn of one Sunni country after another."

The statement also issued a call for Syrian rebel fighters to "unify their front" against the Syrian regime and the foreign forces.
The clerics who issued the joint statement are not affiliated with the Saudi Arabian government in Riyadh, Reuters reports, although the Saudi regime has been a key backer of the Syrian rebel groups fighting the insurgency against Assad.

Russia confirmed last week that it had begun an airstrike campaign against militant group ISIS in Syria, although later admitted it was also targeting other opposition groups in the country. Iran, another key ally to Assad, has been steadily building up its military force in Syria in recent months, and reportedly deployed hundreds of troops last week to fight alongside the Syrian army, Lebanese sources told Reuters.

The clerics' statement was released on the same day that 41 Syrian rebel groups issued an appeal to regional states to form a coalition, in order to defeat what they called "the Russian-Iranian alliance occupying Syria."
The statement released by the rebel groups read: "Russia jumped in to rescue the Assad regime after it was clinically dead, in order to prevent it from suffering a sweeping defeat. Civilians have been directly targeted in a manner that reminds us of the scorched earth policy pursued by Russia in its past wars."


The umbrella group of the Free Syrian Army (which is backed by the U.S.), the Islamist Ahrar al-Sham (The Free Men of Syria) group, and the Jaish al-Islam group that is part of the wider Islamic Front coalition fighting the Assad regime, all signed the joint statement. The U.S. does not currently list Ahrar al-Sham or Jaish al-Islam as terrorist organizations.

[Magic]

What a mess. The Chechens are Wahhabi aren't they? Could see a lot more of their attacks on Russia.

[phonics]

Oh I forgot to mention. It's from Newsweek so reliable, it wasn't malware so to say but you have to register for their site to see the article.

[Lewis]

The Americans reckon (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/10/12/islamic-state-pentagon/73840116/) they have killed twenty-thousand ISIS bods, but the group manages to replace them easily enough. Maybe the plan is to just keep this going forever and churn up the world's mentals.

[Henry]

Military-aged males they mean.

[QE Harold Flair]

Seen quite a few of them being welcomed around Europe lately.

[Davgooner]

Turkey have shot down a drone, which the US reckons is Russian.

As you were.

[QE Harold Flair]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrPY8OCGASY

The reporter, Ayman Mohyeldin, is an Arab-American.

[QE Harold Flair]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa2rUsrzlNA

QE

[Yevrah]

That is a quite excellent hair piece.

[Davgooner]

Netanyahu's a clown. He's presumably still seething about the Iran deal despite his own security services roundly OKing it.

[Henry]

Netanyahu is a fanatic and a mass murderer. The negotiations that he takes part in are a sham.

[QE Harold Flair]

I haven't yet seen any condemnation from Henry regarding the multiple Palestinian cunts stabbing people and then pretending they were 'just innocent children being executed'.

[Henry]

Most of the Palestinians killed in the unrest have in fact been innocent.

[QE Harold Flair]

Most of the Palestinians killed in the unrest have in fact been innocent.

I have no idea if that's true or what you have to back it up, but the same (and probably more) could be said of Israelis.

[Magic]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q60yBQG8XI

[Magic]

Fuck sake didn't embed properly. Absolutely awesome Russian drone footage of fighting in Jobar.

[Henry]

I have no idea if that's true or what you have to back it up, but the same (and probably more) could be said of Israelis.

Of course it could. It's almost as if demonising an entire people is a bit wrong!

[QE Harold Flair]

Of course it could. It's almost as if demonising an entire people is a bit wrong!

It's almost as if nobody demonised an entire people. Don't you regularly demonise Tories?

[QE Harold Flair]

Fuck sake didn't embed properly. Absolutely awesome Russian drone footage of fighting in Jobar.

You're a Live Leak nutter - did you watch that one yesterday of a drug gang torturing some sap? They cut his ear off and scooped an eyeball out. I didn't have the stomach for it.

[QE Harold Flair]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsLPt7SZj18

[QE Harold Flair]

http://www.almasdarnews.com/article/isis-group-claims-capture-of-israeli-pilot-in-west-daraa/

ISIS claim they have an Israeli pilot. If true, can't see it ending terribly well.

[Lewis]

This (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11989469/Saudi-Arabia-risks-destroying-Opec-and-feeding-the-Isis-monster.html) is yet another lol at Saudi Arabia piece worth reading. It would be 'interesting' to see what happened if the whole region fell to bits. Beyond keeping the oil flowing, you would probably just have to call it quits and wish the Israelis luck.

[Spoonsky]

Netanyahu is a fanatic and a mass murderer. The negotiations that he takes part in are a sham.

Isn't that the same logic he uses to criticize the Iran deal?

[Henry]

Isn't that the same logic he uses to criticize the Iran deal?

Maybe; so what?

[Lewis]

lol at 'Jihadi John'. I expect they will rush a greatest hits out before Christmas.

I saw the other day that the Americans are against the Kurds 'developing some kind of semi-autonomous zone' in Syria (like the kind they enjoy in Iraq). Get on the phone, Assad, mate.

[Henry]

According to one report that I read, he was "evaporated".

[Henry]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-14/syrian-transition-plan-achieved-by-u-s-allies-kerry-says

That's positive - an agreement for:

A ceasefire between the government and moderate groups.
Elections and plans for a new constitution.
Smashing the fuck out of ISIS.

[Lewis]

That means Syria/Russia has got six months to kick the 'moderates' about a bit more.

[GS]

The Russians outmanoeuvring the Americans again, I see.

[Davgooner]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/621154/Islamic-State-British-generals-14-days-David-Cameron-terror

[Lewis]

It would be interesting to see China get properly involved (as one of the linked articles suggests). They could do with an excuse to project their power abroad and show what they're about, and what better excuse than something like this that nobody can object to?

[phonics]

Remember when GS said we should just get The West + everyone else in the world up against them and it'd be over within a month and I said it would take less than a month for one of them to bomb the other and have it go tits up?

Turkey just shot down a Russian jet that Russia claims wasn't even in Turkish airspace.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34907983?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

[GS]

It needs to be coordinated. No one sensible would advocate we all pile in and bomb each other, but it is quite clear that we could 'win' handily if we really wanted to.

[Lewis]

Hopefully Russia take time out to lol at NATO meeting in a city completely locked-down because of ISIS. Anyway, this (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUkdnCuW4AAxX9L.png) was the serious breach of Turkish airspace. Why bother?

[Lee]

GS is right in that we could mop this lot up with time to spare before Christmas. We won't, obviously.

Putin is going mental here.

[John Arne]

I see Putin has taken this well.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

A US official is saying the incursion lasted seconds.

[Bernanke]

A US official is saying the incursion lasted seconds.

At max speed it would take them 8 seconds to fly across, but a more reasonable guess seems to be 20-30 seconds.

[Spoonsky]

Go Al-Qaeda!

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/11/24/severe-blow-al-qaeda-suicide-bomber-takes-out-leadership-key-isis-brigade/?intcmp=hpbt3

[Lewis]

The State Department wheeled out some twat to answer questions about Turkey and about how it and its rebel friends have the right to defend themselves, and the following exchange happened:


QUESTION: I’m trying – I mean, do you think that everybody has the right to defend themselves?

MR TONER: We’ve said very clearly that people have the right to defend themselves.

QUESTION: Right? Including the Assad regime?

MR TONER: No.

Mate.

[Boydy]

:D

The whole thing such a fucking clusterfuck. It'll end in world war 3.

[Lewis]

Russia has banned Turkish poultry imports because of 'bacteria'. It's all going off.

[Magic]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/11/25/22/2ED060C700000578-3333630-image-a-2_1448492064412.jpg

:drool:

[Disco]

'New'

[Magic]

The Turkish president has accused Moscow of slander for claiming they buy oil from ISIS (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/isis/index.html) as the fallout over the downed fighter jet continues to escalate with 39 Turkish businessmen deported from Russia.


Bit harsh?

[phonics]

Not really, the US did the same over the plane the Russians shot down.

That's a point, have the Russians forgot they shot down a passenger jet in a country, they weren't actually at war with, less than a year ago?

[Magic]

Deporting successful, contributing businessmen? Why don't they deport a few Turk scumbags? Sure they won't be hard to find.

[phonics]

Are you being deliberately thick to antagonise people or would you like it explained why Russia has kicked them out?

[Magic]

I'd like it explained please.

[phonics]

You annoy the businessman, who was making lots of money in Russia, into pressurising the Government to change it's policies so he can continue to make lots of money in Russia. Normally they will be government officials or people with ties through relatives/relationships with people in power. Why would President Erdogan give a fuck about a few peasants being kicked out? But 38 probable millionaires who could finance his opposition? That's who you listen to.

The quickest way to change anyone's behaviour is by hitting their wallet. Always.

[Magic]

His policy on shooting down foreign bombers invading Turkish airspace?

This is the sort of stuff you do if you've been sanctioned. Won't be effective and just hurts the Russian economy imo.

[Lewis]

Wikileaks has released a massive load of Saudi Arabian foreign policy documents. :humb:

[Lewis]

[T]he PM did not set out a coherent strategy, coordinated through the UN for the defeat of ISIS. Nor has he been able to explain what credible and acceptable ground forces could retake and hold territory freed from ISIS control by an intensified air campaign. In my view, the PM has been unable to explain the contribution of additional UK bombing to a comprehensive negotiated political settlement of the Syrian civil war, or its likely impact on the threat of terrorist attacks in the UK. For these, and other reasons, I do not believe the PM's current proposal for air strikes in Syria will protect our security and therefore cannot support it.

I'm becoming a right Jezza mark. I posted something in support of him on my friend's Facebook wall the other day and it attracted a load of supportive 'Likes', so I had to clarify it by calling him a communist wank.

[phonics]

You just love the 80s.

[GS]

I reckon a decent number of the shadow cabinet will go over Syria, which will isolate Corbyn further. Apparently they're SEETHING because this letter he sent to MPs was before the shadow cabinet had even met to discuss it. Top, top work.

[Lewis]

669988892792233984
669924409172434944

They're on it today.

[phonics]

This is the easiest, don't do anything and we'll look amazing in 6 months move of all time and half the shadow cabinet cock it up by having their feelings hurt. lol.

[Davgooner]

I though Hunt had it right in asking whether our intervention was actually needed. What exactly are we going to be able to do that the US/Russia/France aren't already doing?

Get your jets out for the lads.

[Magic]

Germans have just approved military action. Any chance of a stray missile hitting Israel? :baz:

[Lewis]

ISIS in Yemen have put a video out (I haven't watched it) where they put some blokes on a boat, push it out into the water, and then bomb it. Waste of a boat, lads. They must be running out of ideas.

My mother has just asked me whether I had seen 'that story on the internet' about a Muslim woman dropping her bag in Sheffield and then telling some geezer who helped her to pick it up to stay at home on Boxing Day. You stupid twat. THIS IS WHAT ISIS WANT!

[Lewis]

There are reports that 'coalition' aircraft hit Syrian Army positions, and that ISIS managed to stage an assault on those same positions amidst the confusion. If they're British planes... :harold:

[Lewis]

This (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/12046185/russia-opec-saudi-arabia-bluff-40-oil-price.html) is interesting. Who challenges Russia to a suffering contest?

[Bernanke]

Brent at $37 is crazy. I wonder what the floor is. I read somewhere that production costs for OPEC is around $10 a barrel and US fracking sits around $30, so if the goal really is to kill that industry I guess they can push it even further. But then again, OPEC has to prop up entire states with their margins.

[Boydy]

That's going to be good news for that curent climate conference in Paris.

[Lewis]

This (http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2015/12/14/Putins-popularity-explained.aspx) is good on Putin's popularity.


[T]he Kremlin is one of only three institutions that more Russians trust than distrust (the army is at 64%, and the Church and other religious organisations are at 53%). Fully 80% of respondents said they 'completely trust' Putin.

How should this be understood?

Mainstream Western media usually cast Putin's popularity as the result of Russians' heavy reliance on government-controlled television, i.e. 'brain-washing'. But such a one-sided view may misrepresent the relationship between power and public opinion. Tellingly, only 34% of Russians say they trust the media.

Mental. It seems them sanctions are working. Twats.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I remember when I did 'comparative politics' in my degree (what a load of arse), Russia and its satellite republics, particularly the central Asian ones, were the only states in the world where 'Democracy' has a negative rep in the populace. They really are masochistic fuckers.

[Lewis]

Those numbers suggest that the Soviet Union doing a China would have been the best result for the population. Probably for everyone else as well actually, provided we still got East Germany back.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Well you could see in the likes of Poland and Czech who was up for a bit of ballot casting during, and at the end of the Cold War. In Russia it was more a case of carving up what was left and off we go again. The geographical dividing line must be the same one that means people in Kiev want McDonalds and people in Donetsk want zakuski and a lemon to suck.

[Spoonsky]

http://news.sky.com/story/1605822/obama-is-has-lost-40-percent-of-its-iraqi-territory

It would be funny if they were defeated and the entire Republican rhetoric during this campaign was rendered null.

[Henry]

So, the Saudi Wahhabi scum have conducted mass executions upon their political opponents, and displayed their crucified bodies in public to intimidate others while at the same time renewing their attacks on Yemen.

Barley a murmur of protest from official channels in the west who continue to support them, of course. But shit is getting real with Iran.

[Lewis]

#TeamIran

Go on, lads. Once Syria is sorted blow Bahrain up and troll the Americans.

[phonics]

Thought the Douglas Murray Spectator on this was quite good.

[Yevrah]

Cameron's response today to that ISIS video was absolutely laughable.

[Lee]

Britain will never be cowed

[Yevrah]

Until it comes to continuing day to day activities where anything resembling a large crowd gathers...

I don't claim to be an expert in this field, far from it, but it's absolutely hilarious (and not in a good way) watching someone who's probably the least active pound for pound PM in my lifetime (time served vs. stuff done) try and get into the mind and under the skin of ISIS members.

[Lewis]

Most of Saudi Arabia’s 10.3m barrels a day (b/d) of output passes through the Shia heartland, now seething with fury. While global crude stocks are at record levels, there is no spare capacity outside Saudi Arabia. A disruption lasting more than a few days could cause oil prices to spike violently – possibly to $200 or more – triggering a worldwide economic crisis.

Shit yerselves (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/oilprices/12081550/Saudi-showdown-with-Iran-nears-danger-point-for-world-oil-markets.html) and panic buy.

[Raoul Duke]

Add that to China shitting the bed and we've got ourselves a cheeky global economic collapse :drool:

[Lewis]

Iran is apparently (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/13/the-lifting-of-iranian-sanctions-what-happens-next) having its sanctions lifted this weekend. I hope they tip those unfrozen assets straight into Syria for a laugh.

[Magic]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-35449107

Fucking hell. Horrible cunts.

[Lewis]

Why don't they give up then? The pro-Assad Twitter accounts I follow (heroes them lads) reckon the Islamists in charge have stopped people leaving and nicked all their food, but THE MEDIA DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT.

[Magic]

It was a collective term. Apart from the civilians who, as per usual, are the ones to suffer here. Pity the UN who have the terrible task of trying to negotiate with absolute lunatics on all sides to try and supply civvys, but no doubt it's all going to the fighters.

[Lewis]

The government has been making some serious ground in the north since before Christmas. The idea seems to be to close off as much of the Turkish border as possible before the 'peace talks' get underway, and then they can just tell them to do one if they feel like it.

[QE Harold Flair]

If we let 97% non-European Turkey become European, we're all doomed.

[GS]

We're not doomed, but it would be a significant mistake given their complete inability to control their own borders, their persecution of the Kurds and their current president's apparent desire to rebuild the Ottoman Empire.

[Magic]

The Ottoman empire wasn't that bad to live under.

[QE Harold Flair]

Yes, as long as you completely agreed with it or submitted to it.

[Magic]

They actually allowed other religions and cultures to exist and develop as they wished.

[QE Harold Flair]

They actually allowed other religions and cultures to exist and develop as they wished.

Other religions had limited freedoms, but non Muslims were still treated as second class citizens.

[Lee]

Not even an "according to Wikipedia" when copying it word for word. :D

[QE Harold Flair]

I never visited wikipedia.

[Henry]

The Kurds are absolute legends. You've got to think they should have a chance at getting their own state out of all this.

[niko_cee]

They'd probably just end up gassing all the non-Kurds.

[GS]

The Kurds are absolute legends. You've got to think they should have a chance at getting their own state out of all this.

Syria is a failed state, and Iraq a borderline failed state. It requires a solution recognising the gravity of the situation in Syria. You're never getting a unified country given aggrieved minorities in what now constitutes Islam's equivalent of Europe's Thirty Year War. Partition is needed, even if the historical landscape is littered with the wreckages of past failures of this the world over.

A Kurdish state would seem entirely reasonable, although one suspects the Turks will vociferously whinge about the prospect of having a Kurdish state on their borders. It would just make it more difficult for them to continue persecuting the Kurdish minority in Turkey.

[Lewis]

The government has cut Aleppo off from Turkey (or 'Erdogan's tentacle in the North' as Shia Twitter would have it). Oof. We might have to end up just backing ISIS at this rate.

[Magic]

Air strikes massacring civilians in the besieged towns.

Good stuff Russia. There will be no 'pro-government' population left at this rate.

[QE Harold Flair]

Biased reporting exposed.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4fc_1454537234

[Magic]

This government offensive for Aleppo is mental. They'll be no one there soon. Awful.

[Lewis]

Saudi Arabia offering to invade Syria to fight ISIS (lads...) was good, as was the Revolutionary Guards actually lolling at them.

[Lewis]

Peter Oborne goes to Aleppo (http://www.middleeasteye.net/essays/journey-aleppo-how-war-ripped-syrias-biggest-city-apart-1376989223):


'This was not regime change, it was invasion. And why was it taking a religious theme? Why does it have a beard? We are not ready to replace a secular society with a religious one.'

Sounds like a great holiday.

[phonics]

Well that was thoroughly depressing and once again Turkey somehow come across as the biggest bastards involved.

[Magic]

Utterly desperate scenes now with Assad claiming he won't stop until the rebels are crushed, no matter what the cost. Just seen a video of some really young kids running about in rubble after a shelling shouting for their mama. My heart felt like it's been ripped out. Fuck it.

[Lewis]

I like how the BBC have described it: 'Iran, Russia and Lebanon's Hezbollah movement are propping up the Alawite-led Assad government, while Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar back the more moderate Sunni-dominated opposition, along with the US, UK and France'.

That sounds about right.

[Magic]

Turkey has started shelling the Kurds.

[QE Harold Flair]

And the lol EU want them to become part of Europe. It would be a disaster.

[Magic]

Pics coming out from the besieged towns near Aleppo, fucking horrendous. Can only imagine if social media was around during WW2...

[Henry]

Russia deliberately attacking hospitals too.

[GS]

Well lads, what's the suggestion for fixing it?

[Henry]

I believe I've outlined it before. Support the Kurds, join forces with Iran and tell/force the Saudi's and Turks to stop helping the wrong people.

[Lewis]

Let the Russians get on with it. They know what they're doing, presumably because they lost the Cold War and had to wise up.

[Lewis]

This (http://www.middleeasteye.net/essays/saudi-war-yemen-oil-pipeline-empowering-al-qaeda-1386143996) article on Saudi Arabia's filthy involvement in Yemen is interesting. In short, they want to run an oil pipeline through it.

[Lewis]

Philip Hammond has seen 'disturbing evidence' of the Kurds co-operating with the Syrians and the Russians, which makes him 'distinctly uneasy about the Kurds' role in all of this'. Mate, The Sunday Times interviewed Assad in December and he said the government gave the Kurds weapons, and where did you think they were getting them all in the first place? They can't possibly be that stupid (they are, but my 'This is why you're ineffective' job application was possibly a mistake), so this may be the start of blowing them out for the Turks. Way to go.

[Henry]

Syrians retake Palmyra (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35909603)

Great news, all but ignored in the media because it was the Syrians (with Russian help). This is a major blow to ISIS in the place where they'd done so much to wreck ancient heritage sites.

[Magic]

Sorry how has it been ignored? I've heard frequent updates on the radio and in The Guardian.

[Lee]

It was the main story on the BBC website for two days. :D

[Lewis]

Shia Twitter was gloating over the BBC referring to 'Syrian government forces' rather than 'Assad's orc legions' (or whatever it was before). They're loving it.

[Boydy]

Yeah that was even on TV news the other day. Think it was ITN I saw it on.

[Boydy]

Shia Twitter was gloating over the BBC referring to 'Syrian government forces' rather than 'Assad's orc legions' (or whatever it was before). They're loving it.

Do the Shias like Assad then?

[Lewis]

They can't get enough of anything that kicks Saudi Arabia in the bollocks.

[Magic]

Well he's an Alawite so... Then again he bombs his own people so...

[GS]

It's a blow to ISIS's prestige certainly, but it hardly ranks as their Stalingrad.

[Lewis]

Speaking of which, the Russians have donned this on every level haven't they? And all for less money than the Americans have spent waging a proxy war against themselves (which I believe is a world first).

[Magic]

Yep. And they've fucked Europe as well with their own throbbing, pink, liberal dick.

[GS]

They have, really. Even prior to their formal intervention, they ran rings around the Americans on the chemical weapon issue.

The one thing you would say about the Russians is that, whether you like their strategy or not, they've at least had one with a clear end game. The west have, as usual, waded into something they don't really understand, thrown around moral judgements and then watched as said judgements have forced them to try and defend stupid or illogical positions. It's been quite the lesson from the Russians on how to get what you want.

How are the sanctions holding up over Crimea? I see the oil price has rebounded, which helps them but some of the analyses I read a while back suggested they would probably go bankrupt by the summer so fuck knows what the actual state of affairs is.

[Lewis]

I was trying to think of a major Russian foreign policy failure post-1941 the other day, and even with Afghanistan you could make the case that they were actually right, so there is clearly something to be said for basing your entire national psyche on expected suffering.

[Spikey M]

Isn't that what Scotland do?

[mugbull]

I was trying to think of a major Russian foreign policy failure post-1941 the other day, and even with Afghanistan you could make the case that they were actually right, so there is clearly something to be said for basing your entire national psyche on expected suffering.

Huh? Russia and Karmal lost big time to Pakistan and the US. Otherwise you're right, but that foreign policy blunder along with all of the domestic blunders led to the biggest empire collapse ever, so it's p important.

[Boydy]

How were they right on Afghanistan?

[Lewis]

Their empire collapsed because communism is a shithouse way to run an economy. As for Afghanistan, they would have been better letting it rot; but on balance they probably had a better idea of what to do with it than their opponents did.

[mikem]

We got someone else to start fighting a war we did not want. To do it they starved out a city and bombed hospitals in a way Isreal or the US would get crucified over. In the US print media at least, there was barely a sound. Russia and Iran are now on the hook for the cleanup and any resulting insurgency which will take up a good chunk of their mischief funds. How easy will it be to get out of Syria? We are getting much what we wanted except Assad. How much did we really care? It doesn't look all bad.

[GS]

I have no doubt that the Americans are secretly okay about the Russian intervention, insofar as they can pretend that the danger of a 'hostile incident' with them renders any deeper involvement unwise. That said, the American policy in Syria has been incredibly muddled by trying to support one of the three major factions whilst bombing a second of the three factions and actively campaigning, albeit they've stopped now, for the removal of the third faction from power. This all stemmed from their wading in and recognising the 'opposition council' without having a fucking clue who was actually behind it, getting themselves into diplomatic knots and not wanting to row back from their stated public position.

[mikem]

I don't think Obama has ever aimed for anything other than containment and views the region as a wasteful time sink. If you can't win, then the trick is to not be left holding the mess. Everyone has the same three sides dilemma and the Atlantic stops the refugee issue from being ours.

[GS]

Perhaps, but if that's the case then you shouldn't go and officially recognise the opposition's ill-formed political body or make a huge deal about "red lines" which you're not prepared to enforce.

[mikem]

His argument (not necessarily mine) has been that they stopped using them after he drew the line. And that Putin is truly weak because he can't just say it - to enforce it he has to level the place.

[Spoonsky]

Their empire collapsed because communism is a shithouse way to run an economy. As for Afghanistan, they would have been better letting it rot; but on balance they probably had a better idea of what to do with it than their opponents did.

I was under the impression that the empire collapsed mainly because Gorbachev eased up on things. It's not like the economy was that much better under Stalin or Krushchev (or maybe it was, I'm just getting to Gorbachev in my history class so not extremely informed).

[Henry]

I was under the impression that the empire collapsed mainly because Gorbachev eased up on things. It's not like the economy was that much better under Stalin or Krushchev (or maybe it was, I'm just getting to Gorbachev in my history class so not extremely informed).

They'd probably have held it together in some form if Gorbahev hadn't implemented his reforms.
But the economy was performing better under Stalin and Krushchev. Their system was very good at rapid industrialisation, less so at providing consumer goods and so forth.

[Lewis]

I've always had it that they developed rapidly whilst there was still spare industrial capacity, but once they had all the steel they needed they started failing, which was why Leonid Brezhnev had to turn a blind eye to the black market (the 'Little Deal') to keep things ticking along until their oil crisis pushed them over the edge and made those reforms necessary. They could probably have kept going regardless, but they would have either had to give up the Cold War or starve half the population.

I only recently read the story of Boris Yeltsin and the Texas supermarket. That's pretty funny if you've got a few minutes.

[Bernanke]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.e/interactive/html5-video-media/2016/08/25/Isis_Syria_alliances_circle_2_1100.png

:face:

[Magic]

:D

That's superb.

[GS]

Evidence of why wading in early doors to back "the rebels" against Assad - and compounding it by DEMANDING he step down - was a fucking stupid idea.

[phonics]

Evidence of why wading in early doors to back "the rebels" against Assad - and compounding it by DEMANDING he step down - was a fucking stupid idea.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00739/151053997_739757b.jpg

"No problem mate"

[GS]

I don't even know what that means.

[phonics]

Then you have an incredibly short-term memory.

[GS]

The bombing campaign was a separate issue, as it was designed to 'punish' Assad for chemical weapon use.

The issue of Assad stepping down being a condition for anything - indeed, the rebels being recognised by certain parts of the international community, no less - was a far more stupid decision with more profound consequences.

[Bernanke]

The battle for Mosul has begun. This quote from the Iraqi PM is all kinds of :drool:


"Our dearest people in Nineveh province, the victory bell has rung, and the operations to liberate Mosul have begun. I am announcing today the beginning of these heroic operations to liberate you from the brutality and terrorism of ISIS. God willing, we will meet soon on the ground of Mosul where we will all celebrate the liberation and your freedom."

[Magic]

US just launched a chunk of missiles at Syria.

[Shindig]

And Trump ... delivered ... a speech ... at one ... or two .... words ... per minute.