The Doctors are SEETHING

[randomlegend]

It's looking increasingly likely that it might all actually KICK OFF.

For anyone who doesn't know, the BMA withdrew from negotiations over new contracts for junior doctors a few weeks ago. The Department of Health subsequently announced that they would be imposing new contracts from next August.

The major issues being highlighted with the new contracts are:


Big pay cuts (figures around 20-45%, depending on the particular training post, are being put forward)
Changes to what constitutes 'sociable' working hours to include everything between 7am and 10pm Monday to Saturday
Removal of penalties for Hospitals who routinely work doctors beyond agreed limits
Other changed which will make having kids or doing other study (research etc) more punishing to progression


At the same time as all this is going on, a new position of "Physicians Assistant" has been created. They undergo less training, have less responsibility and yet are to be paid significantly more - there are posts being advertised at £50,000 a year - than junior doctors. There is of course not the same scope for progression, but it will be a good few years after qualifying before a doctor earns a similar amount under the (apparent) proposed changes.

Having said all that, the DoH are denying some of the claims but haven't given any further explanation as far as I've seen.

Needless to say, it's all getting MENTAL on my facebook feed. There's a petition for the BMA to support strike action which currently has nearly 60,000 signatures. People are applying for Certificates of Good Standing (required to work abroad) in unprecedented numbers - to show they are willing to take their skills elsewhere - as a form of protest. There's of course plenty of just general raging as well.

From a personal point of view, if everything I've read about the contracts is true and they go through, I'll seriously consider either leaving the country or pursuing a career outside of medicine when I qualify. As much as I want to be a doctor (in the NHS), I'm not prepared to have no quality of life in order to do it.

[Magic]

Don't worry, we'll be able to employ those 20,000 Syrian doctors and nurses that have just been shipped in to the country at a much lesser wage than you would command.

[Pepe]

While British doctors can just move to another country were they will be paid much more (thanks Lewis).

[SvN]

I've got about 6 doctors on my Facebook and they're all posting huge rants about it daily. It does seem absolutely absurd on the face of it.

[Magic]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3246368/Newly-GPs-paid-1-080-day-just-work-weekends-equivalent-176-000-year.html

Fuck your doctors.

[Lewis]

They should just make people sign ten year NHS contracts in return for their training.

[randomlegend]

It takes at least 7 years after medical school (so 12 in total) to be a newly qualified GP.

It's pretty irrelevant to conditions of junior doctors.

EDIT: Magic

[Magic]

It takes at least 7 years after medical school (so 12 in total) to be a newly qualified GP.

It's pretty irrelevant to conditions of junior doctors.

EDIT: @Magic (http://www.thethirdhalf.co.uk/member.php?u=47)

Boohoo. So what, you train for 7 years then get paid a thousand pounds just for a weekend shift? Sounds alright to me.

[Lee]

They should just make people sign ten year NHS contracts in return for their training.

Yes to this.

The government does seem to be going for doctors, presumably because it's easy to make it look as though they're forcing well off people to put back in, because that's what most people think doctors are.

Consultants and GPs are loaded and depending on their speciality can make a shitload in private work too so I don't listen when they moan about money. Nor was I especially enamoured with the weekend bollocks over the summer. Well done for doing your jobs, guys.

But this is stupid. Juniors work stupid hours for shit pay and there aren't enough of them as it is because we don't fund anything like enough training places. That will only get worse now so we'll pay out even more for locum cover. You ought to see what I spend a year on it; it's obscene.

Not that that they're all poor little souls. I know plenty who bleed us dry with locum work and they have us over a barrel. They aren't the root cause but some of the fuckers love to take advantage. I've had to blink first on numerous occasions because I need to deliver safe services.

We are the biggest user of Physicians Assistants outside of London and have played a big part in pioneering their use. We pay ours around £30k which is more than most junior doctors but there are benefits to it. They don't rotate so you get better continuity of care, for example. When they're able to prescribe they will be a major asset. And their training is getting a lot better. I'd much rather have a PA than some of the HOs/SHOs I've seen. Our consultants love having them. Doctors (especially older ones in my experience) need to move away from the idea that only doctors can do most stuff. It kills us.

[Lee]

Boohoo. So what, you train for 7 years then get paid a thousand pounds just for a weekend shift? Sounds alright to me.

The big point is that this will make prospective doctors fuck off abroad which means we don't have enough doctors to deliver services so end up spending loads of your money on locums.

Not to mention that locums work all over the place and do long hours to rake in cash. So they're knackered and they aren't familiar with host hospital processes, which os dangerous. This shouldn't be about sympathy for doctors; in the end it's a very lucrative career.

But if you put people off with policies like this we end up with less able doctors delivering poorer services for more money. And in the longer term we'll be fucked for quality medical leadership as there will be no fucker coming through the ranks.

[Shindig]

Lee will have them all back in with no problems, man.

[Multi]

I make £2300 a month with no experience as a junior doctor. That will bump up to 3000 within a month when I get my license.

How's that compared to the UK RL?

[Magic]

Fucking hell. I'm retraining.

[randomlegend]

I make £2300 a month with no experience as a junior doctor. That will bump up to 3000 within a month when I get my license.

How's that compared to the UK RL?

Lee will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's about comparable to what UK juniors currently earn.

[Lewis]

How hard is it to hoover up foreign doctors, Fox? I would have thought it must be reasonably easy to just stick job postings up in Crappolaland, but does that have drawbacks that aren't obvious (like medical leadership)?

[Lee]

It's (£2,300) more than a House Officer earns and at the low end of the SHO scale. £3,000 is just about mid-range for a Registrar.

[Yevrah]

Not sure about doctors, and my name's not Lee (I'm Yevrah), but a nurse friend of mine said the NHS get loads of applications from nurses in crappoland who're then subsequently put off when they find out how much it costs to live in certain parts of England.

[Lee]

How hard is it to hoover up foreign doctors, Fox? I would have thought it must be reasonably easy to just stick job postings up in Crappolaland, but does that have drawbacks that aren't obvious (like medical leadership)?

We do that but they tend to be reluctant to take on internal contracts and so rip you off on the private locum market. At junior level anyway. They're more receptive to internal contracts when they're senior Registrars or Consultants because the money and development is easier. Plus, once you're a Consultant you pretty much have a job for life.

[Lee]

Not sure about doctors, and my name's not Lee (I'm Yevrah), but a nurse friend of mine said the NHS get loads of applications from nurses in crappoland who're then subsequently put off when they find out how much it costs to live in certain parts of England.

Depends where they come from. It can he difficult to recruit from outside the EU because the Home Office has a set annual quota of VISAs they'll shell out for foreign health workers. But if you get in early there are certain countries which are a goldmine. India is one (Central Manchester is about to employ 200 Indian nurses) amd Nigeria another - although more for doctors than nurses for some reason. Portugal and Spain are good EU bets and Greece is getting that way.

I'm not sure about the cost of living thing but there does tend to be a high attrition rate with nurses simply because you tend to go out for tens or even hundreds (for bigger Trusta) in one go. The drop out rate is quite high recruiting from within the UK too but that's because we're chronically short of nurses (that lack of funded training places again) so there's lots of competition.

[GS]

I haven't done the necessary analysis, but I've a couple of mates who are doctors and the system would appear to be somewhat broken. An overhaul would appear reasonable, but I couldn't tell you if this is the way forward or not.

On the face of it, it seems quite unreasonable.

[Lee]

The entire health system is shit. Successive governments have meddled to make it far more complex than it needs to be. Fuck knows hpw we get the results we do. It could be so much better though.

[Lewis]

Write a manifesto and take hostages.

[Reg]

This is shit.

Lee, from what you've experienced how has this government been compared to the last?

[Lee]

The first thing I'd do is end this fucking stupid regime of inspection by spastics. Addenbrookes is in 'Special Measures' pretty much because they have no staff. How is that their fault? Train some more people you fucking idiots. I know it costs money and all, but fuck me. How the fuck is it right to plaster a massive sign over a hospital saying it's shit. Absolutely mental to destroy local confidence in a place where most will have no choice but to go at some point.

Inspection doesn't work. Full stop. They've been finding shit care homes since they started inspecting the system and yet they're still shit? Somebody get a fucking brain. Share good practice rather than calling good providers shit because of problems you and your mates have created, morons.

[Reg]

I have a relative who's a teacher and she shares similar feelings re school inspections.

[Lee]

This is shit.

Lee, from what you've experienced how has this government been compared to the last?

I wasn't involved under Labour and this lot have only had a few months so it's hard to compare.

They're shit though. They pretend they're not cutting the NHS by putting in money and then demanding we don't spend it. There aren't enough training places for doctors or nurses; a problem created by successive governments. The health system is too complex - this lot have increases the bureacracy to the point that improving any service in even a minor way takes months. And they've raped the fuck out of stuff like social services which has a massive impact on how the health system functions.

The whole thing would be greatly improved just by simplifying the system. Abolish organisations, pool budgets, let experts decide how best to improve services and let people like me put their ideas in place. It shouldn't be as difficult as it is. Oh, and roll everything into one. Forget the NHS; it makes no sense for it to be separate from education or any other local authority run service. They're all interdependent and they all affect one another. Make everything local population based.

[randomlegend]

It always seems mad to me that hospitals/schools/etc. which are 'failing' lose out financially, and are then expected to improve - and catch up to the 'good' places with all the funding - with less resources than they had before.

[Lee]

They tend to be a symptom of a failing system, rather than failing in their own right. Even Mid Staffs was a result of a culture of primarily focusing on financial performance promoted by central government. I have a big problem anyway with the idea that you fix anything by shouting about how shit it is.

This job is very simple when you take the politics away. Everything, even the finances, is about patient pathways. Get your pathways right by focusing on what gets the patient the best care in the quickest way and the care will be good and the costs low. The problem is that everything needs to be commissioned or signed off by somebody and often these people have no idea what they're talking about or have political agendas.

[phonics]

So now Medical Schools around the country are sending very similar worded emails on the same day about all this

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at least bristol, georges, peninsula, modified version to warwick, and leicester according to the group so far

[randomlegend]

Wonder if UEA have sent them, I'll ask a fifth year.

[Lewis]

What's wrong with that exactly?

[Luca]

What's wrong with that exactly?

My thoughts precisely. Holding a contrarian view on social media isn't going to prevent you from getting a placement, but if you're mouthing off like a twat (regardless of how "in the right" you are), people can and will look and judge.

They just seem to remind (young and presumably angry) people that, seeing as they're going on to become highly respected professionals, they should act the part. It's not some Orwellian suppression; you can express your views strongly without being unprofessional about it.

[mikem]

Isn't that also just a firm but friendly warning to people young enough to forget that their social media footprint can affect their job chances and prospects?

[randomlegend]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11915835/Junior-doctors-will-quit-NHS-if-Government-contract-changes-go-ahead.html

As if it will be even close to those percentages of people who actually follow through :D

Having said that - and in response to Jimmy's "where will they go?" on the old board - a third of A and E doctors buggering off to (mainly) Australia or New Zealand in the last five years is pretty stark.

[randomlegend]

http://i.imgur.com/oyuNW4Q.jpg

This is disgraceful.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The Act :cool:

What you do when you handle the Act, as I once did many jobs ago, is you look for any possible way out of providing the information and if there isn't one, you use the time/cost exemption. Rightly so, as the Act is an absolutely shambolic piece of legislation that shouldn't be there, as Tony Blair himself now freely admits.

[randomlegend]

Yeah, the DoH outright lying to people and then trying to hide it is cool as fuck.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Do you know what that actually means? It means that somebody very junior in the Department for Health, who also has 15 other responsibilities, would have to spend hours and hours looking for some shitty emails that in all likelihood don't even exist anymore, if they ever did, instead of doing their actual job, and to what end?

The only way FoI would be usable and useful would be if every department and every public organisation spent £150,000 a year employing a four man team to actually handle the volume of knobrot that gets sent in and reply in a full and professional manner, and that would clearly be a gigantic waste of money. As it is, this is what we have, so people have to live with it and they can thank the 1997-2001 Labour administration for falsely raising their hopes.

[randomlegend]

The fact they didn't actually complete the request isn't the main issue, obviously. It's the fact they were (are?) telling people something which is just completely untrue in order to justify what they are doing with the contracts..

[Jimmy Floyd]

What is untrue about their response?

[Davgooner]

Some of the FOI requests we get are maddening. :panda:

[Toby]

He's not talking about the response, he's talking about the non-existent opt-out, which has apparently been mentioned at least 354 times in outgoing correspondence.

[phonics]

"I'm sorry, I can't face being a doctor any more"
I’m nearly 40 years old and I have a six-year medical degree, a BSc, an MD and membership of the Royal College of Surgeons. I also have two children, debts which make me sick with worry each month, a marriage which is likely over and a good going stomach ulcer. I work part-time but that involves a 100-mile round trip, three-hour commute and being away from my children for 48 hours every week because I can’t afford to live close enough to the hospital. I work 60 hours a week in order to make my part-time arrangement work.

I can’t afford to attend the conferences and courses I need to in order to make consultant. I can’t afford the last exam I need to do. I can’t afford my General Medical Council fees, my medical defence insurance or my membership of the Royal College of Surgeons that I worked so hard to earn. I can’t afford the petrol to drive to work each day.


This year I have been screamed at, spat at and kicked. I have physically removed excrement from someone who needed that help. I have cut off people’s legs. I have told people that the most important person in the world to them is dying. I have told people that they are dying. I have told a woman her child may not survive. I have not eaten or drunk anything over a 13-hour period more times than I can remember. This year, once a week, I have woken up on the floor cold, jittery, anxious, hungry and traumatised by the things I have seen and the things I have had to do.

http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/oct/22/nhs-doctor-surgeon-junior-contract-quit-job-stress-family-children

No idea how relevant it is. RL/Lee?

[Boydy]

How is a surgeon struggling financially?

[phonics]

How a part time job involves a 60 hour work week confuses me, I must be honest.

[Boydy]

Yeah, I don't get that either. Unless they're doing a lot of unpaid overtime.

[Lewis]

He sounds like a wanker.

[Boydy]

It's a woman.

[randomlegend]

Pretty relevant.

[randomlegend]

How is a surgeon struggling financially?

Because she won't be earning anywhere near what most people think of as a surgeon's wage.

[Lewis]

Read it all now. She should consider working elsewhere. You might lose the 'part-time arrangement', but if getting to and from it is a job in itself then sort yourself out.

[Boydy]

How much would she be earning?

[John Arne]

Yeah, she needs to take responsibility for her own life, and stop blaming it all on someone/something else.
Sort your shit out, if you have to make the above decisions just to get by.

[Lee]

If they're a junior surgeon they won't be getting anything like as much as you think. Consultant surgeons can be loaded (a consultant starts on £75k basic and in some specialties, most surgical ones among them, they can earn a load on top in private work) but juniors mostly aren't.

The government are conning people here. They're picking on doctors because they know people assume they're all rich and so won't kick up a fuss. What they're going to do is make hospitals less safe. We don't have enough doctors as it is. What they need to do is train more or them, not deter people wanting to be doctors.

[Boydy]

It's almost like they're trying to run the NHS down so they can privatize it.

[Lee]

They're not trying to privatise it. There's no margin in healthcare in this country. Not without ripping the whole thing up and starting again with a true market, which people wouldn't stand for. Large scale privatisation in UK heathcare died when Circle failed at running Hinchingbrooke.

[Multi]

Man I'm happy I work in Sweden. A colleague of mine (who studied and worked a bit in England) told me just take a picture of your desk and send it to your mates you studied with from the UK (as they'd be flabbergasted a junior doctor has a desk of their own).

[Lee]

Why does a junior doctor need a desk of their own?

[Davgooner]

Back office savings? He's stuck all the fucking desks in the skip.

[Manc sean]

I have a mate who's a neurologist in london, he's done 8+ years of trainning, gone through the various battle grounds of the nhs (a&e, nights, 1 step behind from a&e etc) and it'll be 3 years before he's on £50k. Tube drivers train for about 3 months and start on that. He's all but given up on being able to buy a house in london and has been offered jobs to go private in the states and he'd triple his wages over night and not have anywhere near the shit.

We need to pay these people properly or they'll just fuck off and when our turn for brain surgery comes around we'll be faced with some lemon who's probably got a black and white cert from the university of bangalore. Fuck that.

[simon]

Is he going to go to the US then?

[Manc sean]

Is he going to go to the US then?

He's weighing it up, although he believes in the fundamental principles of the nhs so would like to spend some time working in it.

[randomlegend]

Apparently the Royal Colleges have been threatened with removal of their royal charters if they don't back the government against the doctors.

If true that's disgusting. I'm not naive, I know governments get up to some dodgy stuff, but I'm actually shocked at how brazenly shit the governments behaviour has been on this. The amount of outright lying they've done is amazing.

[phonics]

But they LOVE THE NHS, RL. You're clearly just a communist hurting the security of this country.

[randomlegend]

It's shit like them continuing to peddle this lie about juniors choosing to work long hours as the money inectivizes them to which is really galling (they have no choice in doing the overtime, it's part of their job). There are people doing locum shifts on top for crazy money but that's a separate issue.

The only comeback they have is to try and get it out that it's untrue and hope the public believe them.

[Lewis]

Allister Heath wrote a good column (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/11975958/Junior-doctors-are-victims-of-an-NHS-thats-broken-beyond-repair.html) about this the other day. In short, nobody will ever actually do anything to the NHS, nor will it ever have enough money, so squeezing junior doctors is the easiest way to free up some money and extra shifts.

[Boydy]

Allister Heath wrote a good column (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/11975958/Junior-doctors-are-victims-of-an-NHS-thats-broken-beyond-repair.html) about this the other day. In short, nobody will ever actually do anything to the NHS, nor will it ever have enough money, so squeezing junior doctors is the easiest way to free up some money and extra shifts.

How does this (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11974620/Quality-of-NHS-care-is-poor-to-mediocre-compared-to-other-developed-nations-OECD-warns.html) (linked to in that article you posted) square with Lee's assertion that we get much better healthcare for our money than most other countries?

[randomlegend]

Won't be the easiest way if they all leave.

[Pepe]

Heard there is a shortage of junior doctors in Somalia.

[Lewis]

How does this (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11974620/Quality-of-NHS-care-is-poor-to-mediocre-compared-to-other-developed-nations-OECD-warns.html) (linked to in that article you posted) square with Lee's assertion that we get much better healthcare for our money than most other countries?

I don't know, but isn't the fact we're a relative deathtrap for things like cancer well-known?

[randomlegend]

Heard there is a shortage of junior doctors in Somalia.

Or Australia, New Zealand, the US etc.Places people are already going. I'm sure I posted in this thread that shocking statistic about the percentage of a and e trainees who are leaving at the moment.

Otherwise they can just leave medicine altogether and earn a lot more doing something else whilst having a better quality of life

I also think there's a misconception about what a junior doctor constitutes. It's not just those who are barely out of med school, it's everyone below consultant level.

[Boydy]

I also think there's a misconception about what a junior doctor constitutes. It's not just those who are barely out of med school, it's everyone below consultant level.

There probably is. I thought it was people just out of med school.

[Pepe]

Everyone seems to be a doctor here, hard to believe there might be a shortage but I'm sure you know better.

[Lee]

Allister Heath wrote a good column (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/11975958/Junior-doctors-are-victims-of-an-NHS-thats-broken-beyond-repair.html) about this the other day. In short, nobody will ever actually do anything to the NHS, nor will it ever have enough money, so squeezing junior doctors is the easiest way to free up some money and extra shifts.

It does have enough money, even taking into account the massive agency spend there is at the moment. The NHS runs a surplus. It's just that the individual bodies with a surplus are not those at the sharp end actually doing stuff. Commissioning bodies, inspectors, other 'arms length' cunts are mostly rolling in it. Burn the fuckers to the groind. There are genuinely large organisations within the NHS which could disappear tomorrow and nobody would be any the wiser.

[Lewis]

Is that covered by nobody ever reforming it? Why risk getting rid of the *bullshit organisation* when the off-chance remains that it might balls things up?

[Pepe]

It's just that the individual bodies with a surplus are not those at the sharp end actually doing stuff.

Sounds like every company out there.

[Lee]

Is that covered by nobody ever reforming it? Why risk getting rid of the *bullshit organisation* when the off-chance remains that it might balls things up?

A number I can think of have been added over the years so it isn't just about being risk averse. As I've said before I'd roll the lot into local government and devolve more power to councils. It's ludicrous for (curative) health to be considered separate from public health, education, social services etc.

[John]

The minute someone even mentions binning something on the NHS, no matter how ancillary or even detrimental it might be, you'll have the loudest idiots in the country shouting about it being a preamble to privatisation.

[Lee]

You just sell it as sacking loads of managers and people would love it.

[phonics]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTkB5RDWwAAi0dB.jpg:large

[John Arne]

Junior doctors will strike for three days in the next few weeks if a ballot produces the widely expected approval for industrial action in protest at the new contract the government plans to force on them, their union has announced.


NHS trainee doctors in England will provide emergency care only for 24 hours between 8am on Tuesday 1 December and 8am the next day as their first move, reducing hospitals to the low level of service usually seen on Christmas Day.

They intend to follow that up with two all-out stoppages, in which all junior doctors will refuse to work, on Tuesday 8 December and Wednesday 16 December, subject to the result of the BMA’s ballot of the 30,000 juniors it represents.


Not sure suggesting that a full walk-out for the last 2 days is going to curry favour with the public... refusing A&E work as a public servant just doesn't sit right with me... but I guess it wouldn't be a worthwhile strike unless it hit home.

[McAvennie]

We'll just have consultants ordering routine bloods, it'll be fine

[phonics]

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[niko_cee]

Why did they get rid of all the different grades in doctoring?

[randomlegend]

What do you mean?

There are still different grades, "junior doctor" is just a poor term I think.

[niko_cee]

Like house officer, senior house officer, registrar etc - didn't they bin all those a while back making everyone either a junior or a consultant (a bit like barristers with their senior juniors)?

[randomlegend]

Yeah I see where you are coming from now. Lee probably understand all that better than me.

From my point of view as you progress your title does change - the names are different for the most part (foundation year 1 and 2, core trainee, speciality trainee) although registrar is still in use - but it's true that everyone below consultant is a 'junior doctor'.

I don't know whether that is a change from the past and if it is what actual difference it makes.

[DC]

My wife works in A&E, nurse, and it's shit conditions and poor pay compared to her previous experience in the US. Junior Docs are getting universal support from all nurses on the subject because they've been successively shafted because despite now record levels of training, and burdens of qualification and maintenance of that qualification they're getting nothing like the recompense they deserve. Even internally, the higher ups are openly in support of Junior docs but have their hands tied by diktat.

Moving to New Zealand is a very real option for us, both for my work and hers, because there's no feasible way for her to be rewarded anywhere close to even myself.

I can say hand on heart my job is bloody pointless in contrast to what the medical profession undertakes - so to be paid more than most of them with likely fewer qualifications is a bit shit.

[Boydy]

What do you do, DC?

You used to be a teacher, right?

[phonics]

He was an IT Engineer for a school like Dav is, no?

[DC]

Was in teacher training over a decade ago, another under-rewarded profession, but didn't enjoy it. Spent 10 years in telecoms, now in shipping industry data crunching.

[randomlegend]

My girlfriend has just qualified as a teacher, started working in September, and she's atrociously paid for the hours she does tbh.

[DC]

I started on QTS. While everyone else degree was 19 hours a week max, plus a paper every couple of weeks, QTS was 40 hours class time and 20 hours out of class work, and 3 papers every week. The level of work to qualify as a teacher just doesn't compare with the level of work required for pretty much any other degree....except nursing and medicine.

How anyone can think a civil engineer is worth more than a nurse is beyond me. (http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Country=United_Kingdom/Salary)

Even basic economics says that where demand outstrips supply the price paid must go up...y'know, the argument being made 2 years ago about Bankers being worth too much to lose.

[Lee]

Like house officer, senior house officer, registrar etc - didn't they bin all those a while back making everyone either a junior or a consultant (a bit like barristers with their senior juniors)?

The titles were binned formally but they're still used. Anybody below a consultant is considered a junior but the ranks within that are recognised. The proper titles are FY1, FY2 etc but nobody really calls them that; we go by the old titles.

[Lewis]

I'm not saying they don't graft (possibly even more than civil engineers), but let's not pretend it takes anywhere near the brain power to nurse than it does to stick a bridge up. Come on.

[DC]

...and there's your mistake, and why the medical profession as a whole (and nurses and midwives in particular) are under-appreciated, underpaid, overworked, and in crisis.

[Pepe]

Is there a charity ride I can join to support them?

[phonics]

A facebook profile picture with the Hippocratic Oath symbol would be sufficient.

[Lewis]

Not really. I expect it's harder to become a doctor of some description than it is a civil engineer (on average). Maybe they get more money than nurses for that very reason.

[phonics]

My grandfather was a Civil Engineer, he built the bridge next to the Jag factory in Birmingham. He's minted but everyone who turned up at my grans funeral kept saying how surprised they were how 'a couple of socialists had it so good'. I spent the entirety of my Grandmothers Wake being called the spawn of Communism. I'd never heard either of them say a political word in their life.

[DC]

Not really. I expect it's harder to become a doctor of some description than it is a civil engineer (on average). Maybe they get more money than nurses for that very reason.

The very reason that they are under-appreciated? Yes, yes that's why they are underpaid.

You can keep repeating yourself, but you only continue to demonstrate the fundamental point of the argument - you don't understand the complexity of nursing, the stress and hours worked, or apparently the brain power or sacrifice. You contribute to the overall underwhelming lack of respect offered to the medical community that is at risk of losing a generation of nurses and doctors to satisfy a short term budget goal (that could be more easily resolved by sorting out several significant loopholes involving LLC's).

[randomlegend]

Nursing/widwifery are fucking hard jobs. They have a lot of responsibility and often work under huge pressure. It's not a job anyone can do. Having been on the labour ward a couple of time recently, the midwives are pretty incredibly honestly.

Just because it doesn't take a lot of brain power (which as DC says isn't really true anyway) and isn't hard to get into doesn't mean we shouldn't value them highly (and so pay them decently).

[Lewis]

I'm not saying any idiot can do it. I just don't see how it can be as 'hard' as civil engineering, which was the comparison you made. I don't suppose civil engineers have much on heart surgeons, but I wouldn't like to think I'm taking the M62 for granted or shitting on Crossrail.

[Boydy]

Civil engineering can't be that hard.

[randomlegend]

You seem to only value how much brainpower/intelligence something requires when considering how 'hard' it is.

[phonics]

Can't believe me being the spawn of communism hasn't created more talk than the qualities of civil engineering. Harold would have been well up for this lads. Where's the PASSION?

[Lewis]

Well yeah, otherwise we'll spend the rest of our lives cry-wanking over how under-appreciated and under-paid most manual workers are. Those poor removal men. The farmers. What about the site labourers?! Won't anybody think about them?

[randomlegend]

As tacky as it sounds, they aren't responsible for people's lives.

Nursing is physically taxing, emotionally draining and genuinely does require a good brain. It's bloody hard and incredibly important. I don't think it's unreasonable to pay them decently in recognition of that.

It's the same with teaching. As I said, my girlfriend is an NQT and if you work it out she gets paid around/less than minimum wage for the hours she does.

[Pepe]

Farmers are not responsible for people's lives? Might want to think that one through. Far more important than nurses, therefore far more UNDERVALUED.

[randomlegend]

Not with the same kind of immediacy, no. It's clearly not the same kind of pressure or responsibility.

Also they should get more money for their milk, mate.

[Pepe]

Want to know who deserves to get paid more? Engineering graduate students? High pressure? Check. Long hours? Check. Brainpower? Check. Saves the world? Check (who do you think is going to fix global warming mate?)

[Pepe]

I would generally agree that nurses should be paid more but I don't know how much they earn so what can I say.

[Lewis]

I can't believe he's slagging Our Farmers off like that. Do you hate Britain or something? You're worse than Jeremy Corbyn.

[DC]

I would generally agree that nurses should be paid more but I don't know how much they earn so what can I say.

Band 5 is £21k start, I think 4k more in London for the expense.

[DC]

Farmers are not responsible for people's lives? Might want to think that one through. Far more important than nurses, therefore far more UNDERVALUED.

Farmers are paid not to farm. Bizarre, but true. Overproduction actually puts them out of business, so there's a lot of effort (and expense) in rigging the national and international markets so that some French git doesn't dump a load of corn for cheap. If we stopped subsidising it then they'd get paid more because it would naturally cost more to produce. But then some other national government would just subsidise their guys to boost their economy to our detriment. We would need to embargo goods from countries providing subsidy.

In short - Farmers can produce all the good that they like. But I wont eat it if it's not made into bread, chips, or delivered to a supermarket - in which case I don't care where it comes from so long as it has a yellow sticker on it or get a BOGOF.

By your logic Freight Logistics companies are the most important because they actually move the stuff.

In which case I work in Shipping, so I'm one-upping them - so now I am more important.

I take it all back, I deserve more money - screw nurses.

[niko_cee]

Don't nurses just get paid poorly as a function of them mostly being wimmins (historically)? If they are paid poorly. I don't know that they are in the grand scheme of things.

At least their (perceived) exploitation is to a slightly more altruistic end than that of care home workers. I always think they get the biggest shafting, when you think the money that goes into those kind of places.

The argument/threat of losing them all to private health systems is quite lol.

[Lee]

Nurses are not paid poorly.

[DC]

Nurses are not paid poorly.

Compared to comparatively qualified individuals, yes they are. Compared to the inability to freely negotiate their own wage structure and / or shop for other jobs, yes they are. In a nationalised system where the Private sector and Public sector is dictated to by the government as to the suitable level of compensation they deserve, they are woefully underpaid because the system is bias against them (hence why this same discussion is being undertaken for Junior Docs).

The alternative to not paying them more is of course to recruit more nurses and improve working conditions, but the government effectively instituted recruitment freezes at the same time by demanding a 10% saving year on year and undercutting the trust budgets by up to 25%. But they'll help free up some of that less cash by renegotiating every contract. :checkit:

If this wasn't the NHS this discussion wouldn't be had.


Don't nurses just get paid poorly as a function of them mostly being wimmins (historically)?

Two parts to it; A the history of volunteerism in medicine and B the difference between a Nurse and an Orderly (and their changing roles).

The female part is a factor, but in truth it wouldn't have mattered as the professionalism of nursing is a relatively modern concept (i.e. since the NHS was instituted). Until such time it was often fulfilled by volunteers (religious organisations in particular - hence the propensity for religious nomenclature such as "Sister") and due to the successive war efforts it was typically fulfilled by females...so chicken and egg situation. I'm sure if it was men the same issue would exist - a la Fire Brigade and the Police who are under the same constraints.

A far bigger factor is that Doctors are historically the sons of the Upper Class or Middle Class, where nurses are drawn from working class - and are rewarded based on perceived utility against other working class roles such as being a miner or shop assistant. However they are now significantly more qualified, experienced, and involved in front-line activity then they ever were - but have not been rewarded for their increased professionalism.

Back in the day a nurse and orderly were differentiated largely by bedside manner and physical capability (the fittest, usually men, became an Orderly because of the physical requirements - particularly on the battlefield running the injured to and from field hospitals). Nowadays they are two very divergent roles, and Healthcare Assistants have been introduced to fill the gap. The modern healthcare assistants are closer to the original role of nurses.

In the last 50 years the role of a nurse has changed from the aspect of domesticity in the hospital with a "Matron" to boss people around, to actually providing life saving (or palliative) care. Where 50 years ago the Nurse was adjunct to Doctor, they are now often parallel in the care-giving paradigm.


If they are paid poorly. I don't know that they are in the grand scheme of things.

They're not paid poorly if you compare them to minimum wage, but when you compare them to other professionals of similar qualification and background then they are even behind teachers.

When you consider then the risks they undertake (my own wife has been stabbed with a needle, attacked with a knife, punched, slapped with urine soaked underwear and various other things - in the last 12 months alone), the responsibility that they have, and are burdened with we can't expect to pay less than comparable systems...which we do. Hence why we are shedding nurses abroad.


The argument/threat of losing them all to private health systems is quite lol.

You wont. What will happen (and is happening) is:

1. providing fewer training places
2. training fewer nurses
3. losing British nurses to overseas (where pay in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand is several thousand pounds annually better off at entry level)
4. have instituted an immigration policy that says you must be earning 28k within 5 years or you have to leave (where nurses can only earn 21k :cab: ) which will mean reduced overseas recruitment
5. growing numbers of retired nurses (we're 5 years away from one of the biggest retirement pots in history kicking in as all the early 80's Nurses get to retirement age).

You wont lose them to private health systems, we will just start running out of nurses here and find it very difficult to encourage them back into the industry (or they'll just see our education as a means to go somewhere else).

[Pepe]

Someone is nursing quite a seethe in here.

[Boydy]

Someone is nursing quite a seethe in here.

:D

Have some rep.

[Lewis]

It's pretty lol that Our NHS uses its effective monopoly to suppress wages. If only there was a mechanism or system (some sort of 'market') that allocated resources more effectively.

[DC]

Someone is nursing quite a seethe in here.

You clearly don't know me. There's a reason :dc: is called :dc:

[Spoonsky]

You clearly don't know me. There's a reason :dc: is called :dc:

:eek:

[Byron]

Turnout of 76% with 98% of those voting for a full walkout.

The real story is in the BBC comments. Some proper lol to be had there.

[randomlegend]

What a result that is.

[Lewis]

How hard is it for the government to beat a strike these days? In the olden days unions would go on strike for weeks and months at short notice. Walking out for three days with loads of warning isn't a threat. Jeremy Hunt just needs to improve his offer slightly and then act all concerned for patients and they'll BOTTLE IT.

[randomlegend]

I think you're wrong but I guess we can only wait and see.

Even if he does force it through, I think people leaving the country/medicine will become a genuine problem.

[Pepe]

You'll just bring some in from elsewhere. Cheaper healthcare + multiculturalism = win.

[Boydy]

This is worrying reading:

http://koshh.org/the-connection-between-the-junior-doctors-contract-and-the-american-corporate-takeover-of-the-nhs

[Lee]

I was with a load of consultants from various hospitals on a course today and the consensus was that juniors will come in if asked to by their consultants 'on safety grounds' if asked. I'm not sure if they've had these conversations with their teams or if they're being naive. I suspect the latter given the timing of the first strike day. It's the day before rotation, so which junior doctor is going to give a shit about the consultants at the hospital they're likely leaving?

It will be interesting to see how many faces I know turn up as locums. And also to see if things work better. Consultants will cover the junior on calls and consultants will make better decisions (about admission) than juniors, generally speaking. Such a model isn't sustainable in a million years but I'm looking forward to seeing what difference it makes.

[Jimmy Floyd]

This is worrying reading:

http://koshh.org/the-connection-between-the-junior-doctors-contract-and-the-american-corporate-takeover-of-the-nhs

There may be merit in some of the points but the problem with these diatribes about NHS privatisation is that they always read like they think there's some secret conspiratorial right wing gang in an underground volcano lair determined to 'privatise' the NHS if it's the last thing they do, when in reality the cause is successive governments wanting to cut costs.

[Boydy]

There may be merit in some of the points but the problem with these diatribes about NHS privatisation is that they always read like they think there's some secret conspiratorial right wing gang in an underground volcano lair determined to 'privatise' the NHS if it's the last thing they do, when in reality the cause is successive governments wanting to cut costs.

Yeah, it does sound a little bit conspiracy theory-ish but I imagine there are businesses that are very interested in the NHS being broken up and being able to move into an open healthcare sector to make profit from.

[Kikó]

Consultation ends in 4 days - have your say https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/472043/final_consultation_doc.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/setting-the-mandate-to-nhs-england-for-2016-to-2017

[randomlegend]

Strikes are back on.

[Chrissy]

I used to work for the BMA giving union advice. I can well understand why they are striking based on how the BMA encourages it at every fucking opportunity.

The hours these Junior Dr's work are generally ridiculous. Cost cutting etc time after time leads to this situation of over worked staff and wages not really fit for purpose.

[randomlegend]

Looks like it's going ahead tomorrow :drool:

[Boydy]

How's it working? Everyone in hospital going to die tomorrow then?

[Lee]

Looks like it's going ahead tomorrow :drool:

It will go ahead, the BMA has to give something to its members after it pissed them off so badly in December. They'll do tomorrow, make their point and not bother with the other dates.

The only concern I have tomorrow is about getting people out of hospital, becaus not doing so meams we'll be stacking up in ED even more than we have been since Christmas. Patients will be safe as consultants are covering. My two main areas (ED and Acute Medicine) are being exempted on the basis that they provide emergency care so I'll be okay.

[randomlegend]

As far as I understand it it's probably the safest day to go to hospital. Much of the non-urgent stuff has been cancelled (elective surgery etc.) and the consultants are covering what the juniors usually do.

EDIT: what Lee said.

[The Merse]

Fuck it. I'm using my private from now on if I have anything causing serious concern.

The original doctor that diagnosed a pulled ligament, the one that said I had a plica, the junior doc who misread the sodding MRI as a medial ligament tear as opposed to what it actually turns out to be today (stated clearly on the notes that came with the MRI)... Arthritis caused by a complex Medial Miniscal tear.

It's not that they're bad doctors at all, I'm sure, but I'd just far rather see a specialist such as the one I saw today at the earliest opportunity. For a year I've used anti inflammatories and pain killers whilst being told a ligament will heal itself, and during that time arthritis has been occurring and in the words of today's specialist (who did Rafa Nadal's knee - swish), it's now a case of surgery or a new knee in 5 years. With a small chance that it may already have gone too far since the MRI in October.

The £200 excess seemed steep before when I'd already been living with it for 6 months by the time that I had the PMB added via my promotion, but I wish I'd stumped it up in June after all now.

[randomlegend]

In my experience sports injuries/orthopaedic stuff like that is one of the things the NHS is really bad at to be honest.

[Lee]

I think this action is right (we're safe) but not one of our fuckers are picketing which I don't like. At least get out of bed.

[Palmer]

Fuck it. I'm using my private from now on if I have anything causing serious concern.

The original doctor that diagnosed a pulled ligament, the one that said I had a plica, the junior doc who misread the sodding MRI as a medial ligament tear as opposed to what it actually turns out to be today (stated clearly on the notes that came with the MRI)... Arthritis caused by a complex Medial Miniscal tear.

It's not that they're bad doctors at all, I'm sure, but I'd just far rather see a specialist such as the one I saw today at the earliest opportunity. For a year I've used anti inflammatories and pain killers whilst being told a ligament will heal itself, and during that time arthritis has been occurring and in the words of today's specialist (who did Rafa Nadal's knee - swish), it's now a case of surgery or a new knee in 5 years. With a small chance that it may already have gone too far since the MRI in October.

The £200 excess seemed steep before when I'd already been living with it for 6 months by the time that I had the PMB added via my promotion, but I wish I'd stumped it up in June after all now.

Sounds exactly like what's going on with me at the moment. Been bumped around physios, consultants and radiologists for over a year now, getting nowhere. Four different people have given four different diagnoses, and I've just gone round in a circle. When the private medical insurance comes through with my new job I'll happily pay the £250 excess and just get it sorted (along with the wisdom tooth removal that's going to cost £1500 :moop:)

[phonics]

This video is so good


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxj5ItDhaJw&feature=youtu.be

[phonics]

Having been private for the last decade. It's a massive joke and just as shit, you just get pushed off to whatever doctors mate instead of a randomer.

[Lee]

It's the same doctors. They just do private work in their spare time.

[Lewis]

Fuck it. I'm using my private from now on if I have anything causing serious concern.

The original doctor that diagnosed a pulled ligament, the one that said I had a plica, the junior doc who misread the sodding MRI as a medial ligament tear as opposed to what it actually turns out to be today (stated clearly on the notes that came with the MRI)... Arthritis caused by a complex Medial Miniscal tear.

It's not that they're bad doctors at all, I'm sure, but I'd just far rather see a specialist such as the one I saw today at the earliest opportunity. For a year I've used anti inflammatories and pain killers whilst being told a ligament will heal itself, and during that time arthritis has been occurring and in the words of today's specialist (who did Rafa Nadal's knee - swish), it's now a case of surgery or a new knee in 5 years. With a small chance that it may already have gone too far since the MRI in October.

The £200 excess seemed steep before when I'd already been living with it for 6 months by the time that I had the PMB added via my promotion, but I wish I'd stumped it up in June after all now.

I would have trashed the gaff if I had found that out. That's really, really piss-poor, and somebody needs their head punching in.

[Lee]

It's a bit bizarre having a radiograph read by a junior. All of ours are looked at by a consultant radiologist or specialty consultant. I thought that was normal practice.

[Charlie]

Just privatise it for fucks sake.

[randomlegend]

It's a bit bizarre having a radiograph read by a junior. All of ours are looked at by a consultant radiologist or specialty consultant. I thought that was normal practice.

It is normal practice as far as I've seen as well.

EDIT: In fact we had to fill out a feedback form just this week and one of the questions started "Considering you will never have to interpret an MRI as a junior doctor..."

[The Merse]

It's a bit bizarre having a radiograph read by a junior. All of ours are looked at by a consultant radiologist or specialty consultant. I thought that was normal practice.

The radiologist read the graph and made the notes which were sent to my GP's and there read to me by the junior. The junior then either mistook 'Miniscus' for 'Ligament' or just didn't know the difference. The surgeon showed me the notes and it's pretty fucking clear. It even says ligaments all intact further down for fucks sake.

[Lewis]

Can't you sue them?

[The Merse]

She still made the referral to the specialist, so it didn't change anything but my perception of the issue. Essentially -

Jan - GP says 'it's your ligaments, go and use anti-inflammatory gel for a couple of months and come back if it's still an issue'.

April - (late going back due to all the shit that went on at home at the time, which is on me, but only by a month) new GP says 'feels like you have a Plica (surgeon reckons I have that as well from childhood issues with knees and says he'll also take it out if it is there), and some ligament swell and maybe a tear, we'll send you for an MRI'

June - Have to chase for MRI appointment, told to wait.

August - MRI appointment comes through, scheduled for a weekend that I'm away and already stumped up £200 on. Inform them and told i'll hear back with a new date within a few weeks.

September - Have to chase as still no new appointment come through. Turns out the system/process cocked up and they need to re-do it.

October - Have the MRI

November - MRI results with the junior misread as ligament damage, referred to Knee specialist

January - Knee specialist scheduled, get the bad news and the good news.

Just painfully slow really. GPs these days will always tell you to live with these for a few weeks first apparently, all of the articles I've read on the subject suggest studies highlight over-reliance on MRI referrals which the GPs are looking to move away from. I've added a month due to the personal strife I was going to distracting me, plus the initial MRI date being unsuitable added another 2 months on, but the turnaround on each event being so long is ridiculous and the number of opinions advising it's ligament damage was a bit shit as it simply makes you comfortable in the belief that a) it might heal itself (as they repeatedly suggested) and b) it's not going to get too much worse unless you really, really fuck about on it.

As Lee says, the Private guys do NHS - this guy is one of the most expensive private specialists in his field who also works in the US and has his own fucking app but I'm seeing him on the NHS (my BUPA wouldn't get me in to see him ironically), it's just the haste with which your into an MRI and a specialist that would have been so much better.

[Boydy]

So you're actually seeing this super-specialist on the NHS?

[Lee]

You're entitled to choose referral to any provider you like. The NHS will just pay a private provider the same tariff as an NHS provider would get.

[The Merse]

I did question this too with him claiming he was too expensive for BUPA cover and him quoted as having 'fees are above those of the majority of colleagues but in keeping with the service offered to his patients.'
Lee - £2,500 for the NHS to get him in apparently, £3,500 for privates. So would anyone get that then regardless of the private they go to - the £2,500?

[Lee]

Yeah the tariff is set by intervention/investigation. They can charge what they want for their private patients but NHS tariffs are fixed.

[randomlegend]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/jeremy-hunt-s-advice-to-parents-could-put-lives-at-risk-doctors-say-a6844936.html

I genuinely couldn't believe that quote was real at first. That's just so irresponsible it's fucking astounding.

He should be sacked.

[Byron]

That's monumental stupidity :D

[Lewis]

It's a bit like when Frankie Maude set that woman's kitchen on fire.

[randomlegend]

It's sort of beyond funny at this point. That advice could genuinely cause deaths if people listen to it.

[The Merse]

Hunt. :face:

The guy is utterly appalling.

[randomlegend]

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/11/jeremy-hunt-to-impose-contract-on-junior-doctors

Shit is going to hit the fan.

[Jimmy Floyd]

This is going to end in Jeremy spending more time with his family.

[randomlegend]

I live in hope, but considering what he's got away with so far he must know where Cameron buried a body.

[GS]

Jeremy Hunt will resign, someone else will come in and the contract will, most likely, remain imposed and unchanged.

[randomlegend]

Then the doctors will walk. I honestly don't believe it's an empty threat. I would say at least half my current year are now considering careers outside medicine when they graduate (me included), and many of my previous year (now first year doctors) are making plans to move elsewhere.

[Magic]

I haven't been following this but an imposed contract does sound cuntish whatever the context. What was:

a) the demands
b) the final offer
c) the imposed contract

in layman's terms? (financial)

[phonics]

I haven't been following this but an imposed contract does sound cuntish whatever the context. What was:

a) the demands
b) the final offer
c) the imposed contract

in layman's terms? (financial)
Turn Newsnight on now. It's a special.

[Lewis]

Unconditional Surrender. If you're seething, fuck off. Import some new ones.

[phonics]

Unconditional Surrender. If you're seething, fuck off. Import some new ones.

That'll cut down immigration.

[Magic]

Unconditional Surrender. If you're seething, fuck off. Import some new ones.

They've already started training 30 Syrian 'medically orientated' refugees in Glasgow. Just because they can throw a bandage around a beheading victim doesn't mean I want them doing complex operations or diagnosing illnesses.

[GS]

That'll cut down immigration.

We can leave the EU, have a points system and only bring in competent people.

[Lewis]

Good immigrants though. It's sort of ironic that all of this footage has 'SAVE OUR NHS!' chants over it (not political) when the only thing that enables the government to impose a contract in this way is the state having a virtual monopoly on healthcare.

[phonics]

HOW IS HE STILL LEADING WITH THESE STUDIES.

It's absolutely mental.

[randomlegend]

Good immigrants though. It's sort of ironic that all of this footage has 'SAVE OUR NHS!' chants over it (not political) when the only thing that enables the government to impose a contract in this way is the state having a virtual monopoly on healthcare.

The conspiracy theory (which I'm coming round to the idea of, despite Lee dismissing it) is that 'they' are deliberately trying to fuck the NHS up so they can say it can't work and privatise it.

[Pepe]

Then the doctors will walk. I honestly don't believe it's an empty threat. I would say at least half my current year are now considering careers outside medicine when they graduate (me included), and many of my previous year (now first year doctors) are making plans to move elsewhere.

They will all do a GS when they realize there is nothing better available for them.

[randomlegend]

There is. It's better working in Scotland/Wales. It's better working in Australia or New Zealand. There are loads of places they can go.

Plenty of places are willing to take you on with a medical degree for non-medicine careers as well, for those who are yet to start as a doctor or want to leave medicine altogether.

[randomlegend]

Unconditional Surrender. If you're seething, fuck off. Import some new ones.

There aren't enough doctors as it is, and it's not like we are reticent to bring them in at the moment as far as I can see.

EDIT: I know you're probably just trying to wind me up, but this is honestly such a stupid position to take.

Yes it's partly about pay (doctor's are highly qualified, they work fucking hard and they do a difficult job - they deserve to be paid reasonably) but it's mainly about safety. The new contracts aren't safe. I don't care where you're from, you still need sleep and rest. Tired doctors make mistakes and people will die because of it.

[phonics]

698073140539301888

11 out of 20 signatories have claimed that Jeremy Hunt had them sign a different letter than the one he read out in the commons. This is just mental.

[randomlegend]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RaHs8qKGeBA/Vd89vwTg29I/AAAAAAAATbc/FBgSm1DXZqY/s1600/he-cant-keep-getting-away-with-it.gif

[Lee]

What I like best is how politicians who love slagging off NHS managers now point to their 'agreement' with a policy as a reason for it being a good thing.

[Byron]

I imagine Hunt has bitten off more than he can chew at this point.

Who's the minister who generally follows people around clearing up their shit? Get him/her involved.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Gove :drool:

The thought of him in charge of Health. The left would eat itself.

[Byron]

I thought it was Gove but couldn't quite remember. He cleaned up Grayling's shit right? So get him in and sort this clusterfuck out.

[randomlegend]

Gove's a twat. There were celebrations in staff rooms up and down the country when he fucked off from education.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Teachers are well renowned for liking education secretaries. In fact I think just about every single one in my lifetime has been hounded out by the scumbags. Poor Estelle Morris.

[randomlegend]

Maybe because they care about what they do and believe the policies brought in will be detrimental to the kids they teach?

I'm not sure why the assumption would be that an entire profession are cunts rather than a series of education secretaries have been rubbish.

[Lewis]

Offer to let them run the school however they like in return for ten per cent wage reduction. That should confirm where their interests lie.

[randomlegend]

People wanting to be fairly compensated for what they do doesn't mean they don't care about it. That's a bullshit argument that gets thrown at the doctors as well.

My girlfriend is an NQT and considering the hours she works her wage is already absolutely shocking. She could easily be earning more doing something much less stressful and working less hours if she didn't care.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Most people think their wage is crap. Teachers and doctors are lucky to have such effective bargaining organisations to act on their behalf.

[randomlegend]

My girlfriend would be earning more at Sainsbury's by now if she'd gone full-time there rather than doing her PGCE, and she'd do it working less hours.

Doctor's wages also really aren't what people think they are. Clearly we don't have an effective bargaining position situation, given the events of the last few days.

Also, private sector workers can just leave and work for another employer if they are paid unfairly. I can't work as a junior doctor for anyone other than the NHS in this country.

[Lewis]

It's a legitimate point. Would you bake for less money than you would hand-process shit for Anglian Water? I'm sure if you halved wages the caring would cease to be an issue, but they're obviously earning enough that they can still justify it with their benevolence and caring and love of children (literally for PE teachers).

[randomlegend]

I'll find out exactly what my girlfriend earns and the average hours she does in a week and see if you still think that. I think you'll be surprised.

[John Arne]

My girlfriend would be earning more at Sainsbury's by now if she'd gone full-time there rather than doing her PGCE, and she'd do it working less hours.


So, why doesn't she quit? I don't mean to sound like a dick, but it's nobody else's fault but her own if she could be earning more doing something else. Pretty much everybody is in that position - it isn't unique to teaching.
Doctors, I have more sympathy with - given the lack of alternatives to the NHS.

[randomlegend]

Because she wants to teach and cares about her class? Why's it different for her than the doctors? If she wants to teach she has to accept that's how it is.

[Magic]

Teaching and healthcare aren't the same as working in a supermarket or a car garage for fuck's sake. We should be snapping our backs to accomodate the people that deliver education to our future generations and those that are working to save lives.

[Magic]

Also the SNP would rather see the absolute destruction of public services via freezing of council taxes and the pure funding of a police state. How do you respond to this shit, Toby?

[John Arne]

Because she wants to teach and cares about her class? Why's it different for her than the doctors? If she wants to teach she has to accept that's how it is.

If she accepts it, then great. It just sounded that you were complaining on her behalf (that she could be earning more money elsewhere)
- however, I could have just read that in the wrong tone.

[randomlegend]

No I'm saying that the fact she sticks with it despite the fact she could be less stressed, better paid and working less hours elsewhere is evidence she cares about what she does already. You don't need to dock her pay another 10% to find that out.

[Magic]

We should all go to John Arne's country, where medical staff really ought to work for their local supermarkets for better pay.

[John Arne]

No I'm saying that the fact she sticks with it despite the fact she could be less stressed, better paid and working less hours elsewhere is evidence she cares about what she does already. You don't need to dock her pay another 10% to find that out.

That probably applies to 90% of employed people. I am underpaid, overworked and underappreciated. The things that gets me is people going into something that they know isn't well paid, and then complaining that they are underpaid. You should both upsticks and more to Asia.

[John Arne]

We should all go to John Arne's country, where medical staff really ought to work for their local supermarkets for better pay.

You have completely misunderstood what I said. Teachers are great - however, going into a profession with a known low pay for NQT, and then complaining about it, just seems a tad strange to me.

[randomlegend]

I'm not complaining. Lewis said we should cut their pay 10% in exchange for control of the school to see if they really care. I'm just trying to make the point that the conditions are already bad enough that if she didn't care she'd not be doing it.

I probably would up sticks to Australia or Canada when I qualify if it was just me. I know she will never want to do that and I understand that. As it is I'll probably just so something outside medicine if things continue as they are.

[John Arne]

I'm not complaining. Lewis said we should cut their pay 10% in exchange for control of the school to see if they really care. I'm just trying to make the point that the conditions are already bad enough that if she didn't care she'd not be doing it.

Ok, apologies - I didn't realise you were replying to Lewis :D

[randomlegend]

Yes I can see how it would have looked :D

[phonics]

We're up to 14 out of 20 now

698175901767438336

[Magic]

You have completely misunderstood what I said. Teachers are great - however, going into a profession with a known low pay for NQT, and then complaining about it, just seems a tad strange to me.

:face:

[Yevrah]

My girlfriend would be earning more at Sainsbury's by now if she'd gone full-time there rather than doing her PGCE, and she'd do it working less hours.


Isn't a PGCE basically training to be a teacher? If so, it's a bit disingenuous to compare the two.

[GS]

I started on £13,000 a year.

[Boydy]

Isn't a PGCE basically training to be a teacher? If so, it's a bit disingenuous to compare the two.

Yeah but she wouldn't have been paid for that. He's talking about her NQT salary which is the first year on the job proper.

[Yevrah]

Fair enough. That's shit then.

[Lee]

Aren't NQTs paid more than £20k? That's not bad going at all.

[Boydy]

£22k but they do about 60 hour weeks.

[randomlegend]

She easily does 60 hours a week.

Edit: having worked it out, she gets about £8.40 for the hours she actually does (I appreciate some of that's at home, but she often works solidly from getting home to going to bed, so she may as well be at school). That's not counting any work in the holidays, and she does a lot.

Even if she were still sat on checkouts at Sainsbury's she'd be getting about £8 an hour.

Apparently the hourly junior doctor wage if the contract goes through works out about £7.50. Fuck that.

[Boydy]

We are all working class now.

[Lewis]

More gentrification. Fuck off.

[randomlegend]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/14/junior-doctors-jeremy-hunt-conservatives-event-fareham?CMP=fb_gu

He's such a bellend :D

[Toby]

Also the SNP would rather see the absolute destruction of public services via freezing of council taxes and the pure funding of a police state. How do you respond to this shit, Toby?

I'd be largely in favour of a rise to council tax but the Scottish Government doesn't have the power to make the rates more progressive, so I can see why there are those against it in it's current form.

Other than that, you just get the usual lol.

[Bartholomert]

So how's that socialized medicine treating you all?

[Byron]

Pretty well mate, after all I know that if I fall ill, I'll be able to get treatment without needing a bank loan.

[John Arne]

Byron picking up an easy e-victory there :)

[Shindig]

So how's that socialized medicine treating you all?

Well, it kept incredibly premature babies like me and my sis from being just an afterbirth. We owe our entirely life to it.

[Bartholomert]

Pretty well mate, after all I know that if I fall ill, I'll be able to get treatment without needing a bank loan.

Yeah you won't need a bank loan in the US either so long as you choose to buy healthcare. And at least then you can count on dedicated service from world class doctors operating the most advanced medical equipment science has yet conceived, rather than hand me downs from the US bought on sale after we upgraded.

[John Arne]

What if you can't afford health insurance?

Also, WHO ranked UK 18th, whilst the US was 37th (though the report was 2000) in their review of health systems across the world.

[John Arne]

Also, I don't dismiss the claim that the US has better/more modern equipment - it undoubtedly has. Better doctors... I've no idea.

[Byron]

Yeah you won't need a bank loan in the US either so long as you choose to buy healthcare. And at least then you can count on dedicated service from world class doctors operating the most advanced medical equipment science has yet conceived, rather than hand me downs from the US bought on sale after we upgraded.

And what about those that can't afford health insurance?

http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/health-insurance-premiums.aspx

The fact that it could cost USD 208 a month for insurance is staggering and many people won't be able to afford that after rent and utilities. It just seems endemic of the problem with America, the idea of a NHS style system screams communism when it's just the basic principle of not letting people die because they have the misfortune of not having a well paid job.

[Bartholomert]

And what about those that can't afford health insurance?

http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/health-insurance-premiums.aspx

The fact that it could cost USD 208 a month for insurance is staggering and many people won't be able to afford that after rent and utilities. It just seems endemic of the problem with America, the idea of a NHS style system screams communism when it's just the basic principle of not letting people die because they have the misfortune of not having a well paid job.

Eh you realize poor people and senior citizens already get healthcare for free through Medicaid and Medicare, right?

[Bartholomert]

Also, I don't dismiss the claim that the US has better/more modern equipment - it undoubtedly has. Better doctors... I've no idea.

We have the best medical schools in the world and attract the best and brightest to our schools. Yes, best doctors as well.

[John Arne]

We have the best medical schools in the world and attract the best and brightest to our schools. Yes, best doctors as well.

Hmm.... a fairly subjective topic, this one.

This report, however, suggests that the top 3 are;

Harvard (USA)
Oxford (UK)
Cambridge (UK)

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings-articles/university-subject-rankings/top-medical-schools-2015

[randomlegend]

Medical school rankings are total and utter nonsense.

[John Arne]

Medical school rankings are total and utter nonsense.

How so? (genuine question).

[randomlegend]

Because they are based on stuff like the quality of the research done at the Uni, which is just completely irrelevant to the standard of undergraduate teaching.

Edit: as an example, Cambridge graduates gave some of the lowest ratings on a survey asking juniors how well they felt their degree had prepared them for their job, despite them apparently being a top 3 medical school in the world.

[John Arne]

Because they are based on stuff like the quality of the research done at the Uni, which is just completely irrelevant to the standard of undergraduate teaching.

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings-articles/university-subject-rankings/top-medical-schools-2015


The ranking is compiled based on global surveys of academics and employers, alongside data on research citations (find out more here). See below for an overview of the world’s leading medical departments, based on the QS World University Rankings by Subject 2015.

Although broad, that seems like a fair enough set of criteria, to me.

[randomlegend]

That basically says it's based on "reputation" (which is just lol) and research citations (which is just irrelevant).

[John Arne]

That basically says it's based on "reputation" (which is just lol) and research citations (which is just irrelevant).

Surely reputation comes from producing good doctors, good courses and good facilities/investment? How else do you measure it? - I'm not arguing here, I'm trying to find out what the criteria, according to you, should be...

[randomlegend]

The reputation of Cambridge and Oxford comes from being Cambridge and Oxford. It's also about how prestigious the hospital they are attached to is, where they are (London) etc.

As I edited you with, if you survey students on how well prepared they felt by their course, Cambridge especially did really badly - which is a much better indicator of a good medical school in my opinion. They often do badly on student satisfaction and stuff as well.

Honestly even the people you would think would live and die by league tables just think they are a joke.

[randomlegend]

And on what the criteria should be, I think trying to rank med schools is a pretty futile exercise. There's no metric which is consistent between them (like a national exam) that you can compare them across.

They all have to meet GMC standards and all have their positives and negatives.

[John Arne]

The reputation of Cambridge and Oxford comes from being Cambridge and Oxford. It's also about how prestigious the hospital they are attached to is, where they are (London) etc.

As I edited you with, if you survey students on how well prepared they felt by their course, Cambridge especially did really badly - which is a much better indicator of a good medical school in my opinion. They often do badly on student satisfaction and stuff as well.

Honestly even the people you would think would live and die by league tables just think they are a joke.

That makes sense. Do you have a link to the report?

[randomlegend]

I'm at placement but I'll dig it out when I'm home.

[John Arne]

I found some for general student feedback, but not specifically for medical students. However, I'll take your word for it.

[Lewis]

$208 dollars doesn't seem that expensive if it means not definitely being dead if you get cancer or have a stroke (as seems to be the case here). What does an average taxpayer pay towards Our NHS?

[SvN]

Isn't Mert Turkish? Why is he suddenly American?

[phonics]

Isn't Mert Turkish? Why is he suddenly American?

Because third culture kids have no identity they grip onto any one they can even more zealously that most. You see it with a lot of International School kids.

Like born again Christians.

[Pepe]

Because they are based on stuff like the quality of the research done at the Uni, which is just completely irrelevant to the standard of undergraduate teaching.

That applies to every university tbf.


$208 dollars doesn't seem that expensive if it means not definitely being dead if you get cancer or have a stroke (as seems to be the case here). What does an average taxpayer pay towards Our NHS?

Might not sound like that much, but then you'll have to see after how much money insurance kicks in, what kind of deductible you get, what applies and what doesn't, etc. etc.

[Lewis]

That's a point. But then I don't get ill, so I reckon I would still don the system.

[Pepe]

I don't get ill either. Still forced to pay $1,500 a year for insurance and I don't even know what it covers (apparently nothing). The only time I went to the uni doctor was for a sprained ankle. I got some pills and a bandage and a $100 bill a few months later, which I have not and do not intend to pay.

[phonics]

I'm still trying to get them to remove coverage I never asked for despite them tyring to take me to court for several thousand dollars once and multiple letters from my lawyer stating that I never wanted or should have been given that coverage in the first place.

I've ended up spending an extra few thousand on top of my health insurance fighting my health insurance because I don't want so much health insurance. It's mental.

[Bartholomert]

Medical school rankings are total and utter nonsense.

Lol. Typical bitter justification given by people who went to bad schools.

[Magic]

Also, I don't dismiss the claim that the US has better/more modern equipment - it undoubtedly has. Better doctors... I've no idea.

They have House, mate.