Bloke Goes Mental with Axe on German Train

[Lee]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36827725

20 injured, assailant shot.

We need a boat attack next.

[Baz]

Any videos?

[Lewis]

I'd fancy myself against some chapati-fed Muslim with an axe.

[Disco]

http://i.imgur.com/D0o7ALf.jpg

[Magic]

No deaths = shit. How come the Germans never manage to die in these things. What a race.

[bruhnaldo]

No deaths = shit. How come the Germans never manage to die in these things. What a race.

Do they have many attacks in Germany?

[Lee]

No deaths = shit. How come the Germans never manage to die in these things. What a race.

Give it time, mate.

Still, even if they all die it wouldn't make a top ten of worst endings to German train journeys.

[Magic]

Do they have many attacks in Germany?

Remember that one where the American soldiers nailed the guy?

[GS]

Give it time, mate.

Still, even if they all die it wouldn't make a top ten of worst endings to German train journeys.

Fucking hell, Lee. I didn't think you engaged in solid WWII banter. Well played.

[Lee]

That was France, wasn't it?

[Lee]

Fucking hell, Lee. I didn't think you engaged in solid WWII banter. Well played.

I'm more of a 16th/17th century European history kind of man, but you can't go missing open goals.

[Magic]

That was France, wasn't it?

Oh. :(

[bruhnaldo]

Remember that one where the American soldiers nailed the guy?

Oh ya that's right. I forgot about that.

[bruhnaldo]

I'm only 27 but I honestly can't remember a time when the world was going as apeshit as it is right now?

Seems like every single day something else like this is happening. Do you reckon it's just the advent of social media to make things more visible or are people just fucking nuts?

[The Merse]

Give it time, mate.

Still, even if they all die it wouldn't make a top ten of worst endings to German train journeys.

Fucking hell Lee :D

[Shindig]

Its like a bunch of idiot headcases have all been activated.

[Bartholomert]

I'm only 27 but I honestly can't remember a time when the world was going as apeshit as it is right now?

Seems like every single day something else like this is happening. Do you reckon it's just the advent of social media to make things more visible or are people just fucking nuts?

As an anecdotal barometer, my fraternity GroupMe has never been this openly racist / intolerant, and that's including the old listserve from like 10-12 years ago back when rape jokes were mainstream and we didn't give bids to Blacks/Hispanics as a matter of self-evident common sense.

I do think social media has made people more insecure / attention seeking; it used to be that losers used to just be losers alone in a corner, now their loserdom is rubbed in their face every time they open Instagram / FB. That must be intolerable.

[John]

Not quite as mad as the German bloke, who I've mentioned before, ripping through a school with a home made lance and a flamethrower, but if you're going to plan an attack why would this be it?

[GS]

I'm more of a 16th/17th century European history kind of man, but you can't go missing open goals.

The next step is bunging '1940, lads' into every discussion about the French.

[GS]

755156982814928896

AfD to surge in the polls, no doubt.

[Lee]

What a shit terrorist attack. A child has hit some people with an axe and left more "in shock" that he has managed to actually hurt.

[Magic]

I just can't see past the lorry technique. This train machete shit is like putting on a new set of full wets when you're team mate has just set a lap record on slicks.

[Lee]

Islamic terrorists must be thick. I don't understand why they don't just go to some Championship football match or provincial city shopping centre and just have a go. It's not like they check you on the way in. You'd have a cracking day if that was your kind of thing.

[Kikó]

Because they love English football.

[Lee]

Surely they hate New Look though?

[Shindig]

Islamic terrorists must be thick. I don't understand why they don't just go to some Championship football match or provincial city shopping centre and just have a go. It's not like they check you on the way in. You'd have a cracking day if that was your kind of thing.

Nope. Don't give them that idea. Whilst having my ashes scattered at St. James' is a lovely gesture, dying there is not on my list of priorities. Plus Eldon Square's fine. I'd like to hope that all our sleeper-nutjobs are also suffering from the kind of depression that keeps them indoors 7 days a week. Plus we're kind of good at dealing with terrorism. The isolated nutters we're not quite good at pinning down, though.

[Bartholomert]

Islamic terrorists must be thick. I don't understand why they don't just go to some Championship football match or provincial city shopping centre and just have a go. It's not like they check you on the way in. You'd have a cracking day if that was your kind of thing.

I've always wondered this as well, it seems like it would be so easy if you weren't too fussed about surviving.

[Lewis]

There must be a natural human (for lack of a better term) inclination to want to do something spectacular and headline-grabbing, especially if you go into it expecting to die, which has to balance symbolism with numbers. If I had to kill a load of people with a backpack full of explosives I would be looking at de-railing a train; but unless I announced it beforehand and fucked myself, how would the news cycle know why I had done it until the shock had worn off?

[Lee]

A suicide bomb in a packed football ground would tick the boxes, surely? I remember going to the Leicester vs Man Utd game which was not long after the Paris attacks and we were checked on that occasion. Well, I wasn't, because I'm white, but you get the picture.

Obviously my mind turned to what had almost happened in the France-Germany game and I remember thing just how fucked I'd be if a suicide bomber let rip. Or even a shooter - there is just nowhere to go. Big match, thousands in a crowd packed together. Live on the telly. Perfect.

[SvN]

Like others have said, I've quite often thought that there are easy to access places that would allow someone to kill dozens, if not hundreds, quite easily. A shopping centre on Christmas eve, for example. How about right in the middle of a crowd at Glastonbury? It's fortunate that they're pretty thick about their targets, really.

[Bartholomert]

Maybe we're underestimating how suspicious they would look in any of those venues, and the capacity of security personnel to stereotype effectively...

[GS]

Maybe we're underestimating how suspicious they would look in any of those venues, and the capacity of security personnel to stereotype effectively...

Where do we stand on profiling as a means of pre-empting this sort of thing? I'm not offering an opinion, I'm just curious.

[Lee]

Maybe we're underestimating how suspicious they would look in any of those venues, and the capacity of security personnel to stereotype effectively...

At Leicester there is barely any security. It has increased from zero since Paris but you could easily get in without being checked. They're more bothered about queues forming than the prospect of a terrorist getting in. A lot of muslims attend Leicester games too so you could blend in easily enough. I'm pretty glad we're not subjected to such checks but if you wanted to go and blow a Leicester game up you'd be unlucky to get caught if you're at the point of entering the stadium.

As for shopping centre security, I just can't believe they're that skilled when it comes to profiling. Especially in a city like Leicester where every fifth or sixth person is going to fit your stereotype.

[Lewis]

You could run a car through a bus queue every day of the week, but who cares? Nobody is going to stop waiting for buses, because some daft cunt pensioner could do likewise at any moment. People only began you wot mating that truck attack as the death toll went mental. So you're left with the spectacular, with symbolism making up for a lack of guaranteed carnage, and it's pretty difficult to make explosives without anybody noticing, and probably even harder to get your hands on massacre-capable firearms, which limits you to beheading soldiers.

[Lee]

Where do we stand on profiling as a means of pre-empting this sort of thing? I'm not offering an opinion, I'm just curious.

Not for me. You'd hope the intelligence lot will have done their work before it gets to the stage where it is necessary and it seems that we're quite good at it in the UK.

I dislike additional security checks at mundane events like football matches too, while we're at it. It can fuck right off.

[Bartholomert]

Where do we stand on profiling as a means of pre-empting this sort of thing? I'm not offering an opinion, I'm just curious.

Constitution has been interpreted to say a 'profile' may be used as part of the totality of circumstances to determine whether reasonable suspicion or probable cause exists to conduct a warrantless search / Terry stop, but does not independently constitute sufficient evidence absent additional corroborating factors. That seems about right.

[Shindig]

Plus, if they're truly loners, they'll not ripple the pond til they do the deed. There'd need to be warnings to make them known to police first. Things that seem to be in place for the likes of the Niece trucker (Sorry, this is the one tragedy I can't take seriously because of how words work) but the French intelligence and police services either had nothing to act upon or didn't survey him close enough. Plus you're not going to keep an eye on a petty criminal, are you?

EDIT: This lad was self-radicalised. If you're going to find God on the internet, do the decent thing and be a Mormon.

[Lewis]

You could run a car through a bus queue every day of the week, but who cares? Nobody is going to stop waiting for buses, because some daft cunt pensioner could do likewise at any moment. People only began you wot mating that truck attack as the death toll went mental. So you're left with the spectacular, with symbolism making up for a lack of guaranteed carnage, and it's pretty difficult to make explosives without anybody noticing, and probably even harder to get your hands on massacre-capable firearms, which limits you to beheading soldiers.

Two of them tried to kidnap a lad out running near RAF Marham, so they were probably Peterborough locals.

[Mazuuurk]

I've been a bit out of the loop on vacation, and when I saw this title I thought it was some random dude spraying people with the deodorant (Lynx is called Axe in sweden, and I think most non-UK countries).

[Bartholomert]

I've been a bit out of the loop on vacation, and when I saw this title I thought it was some random dude spraying people with the deodorant (Lynx is called Axe in sweden, and I think most non-UK countries).

What is the media like in Sweden, is it regularly reported that Sweden has the highest levels of rape in Europe, committed primarily by immigrants?

[Mazuuurk]

I don't see how that's relevant at all to my post. I was in France & the UK the past 3 weeks.

Anyway, there's some writing about our high rape stats occasionally, just like there's reporting about everything else. We certainly have trouble - like most countries - with integrating immigrants into society successfully which oftentimes leaves them on the fringes of society and with low economical prowess, and will make them - statistically - more likely to be involved in any type of crime, which as you know, has little to do with the fact that they are immigrants in itself. So it makes you sound like a little bit of a bigot when you put it like that. I really have no idea about whether rape in itself is more committed by immigrants or not, but my guess would be not, that sounds more like something the far-right parties and groups (which are fairly prominent in Sweden now, as all of Europe) might use as (false) propaganda.

It's widely considered, at least here, that one of the reasons that we have high rape stats in Sweden relative to other European countries is that people - to a much larger extent - actually report rapes here because they are better encouraged to do so. Of course there's no way to verify if that's true or not, but it is a fact that very few rapes are ever reported, and fact the vast majority as I remember it aren't, and it's likely the increase in Sweden has come more from a supporting attitude and les shaming of people who have been victims of it, rather than people actually just raping more - which is likely the fruit of years of campaigning on the topic.

We still have absolutely woefully short penalties for rape. But then again, there's always the dilemma with proving whether there was indeed consent or not, etc., so I guess it's a very tricky business

[Bartholomert]

I don't see how that's relevant at all to my post. I was in France & the UK the past 3 weeks.

Anyway, there's some writing about our high rape stats occasionally, just like there's reporting about everything else. We certainly have trouble - like most countries - with integrating immigrants into society successfully which oftentimes leaves them on the fringes of society and with low economical prowess, and will make them - statistically - more likely to be involved in any type of crime, which as you know, has little to do with the fact that they are immigrants in itself. So it makes you sound like a little bit of a bigot when you put it like that. I really have no idea about whether rape in itself is more committed by immigrants or not, but my guess would be not, that sounds more like something the far-right parties and groups (which are fairly prominent in Sweden now, as all of Europe) might use as (false) propaganda.

It's widely considered, at least here, that one of the reasons that we have high rape stats in Sweden relative to other European countries is that people - to a much larger extent - actually report rapes here because they are better encouraged to do so. Of course there's no way to verify if that's true or not, but it is a fact that very few rapes are ever reported, and fact the vast majority as I remember it aren't, and it's likely the increase in Sweden has come more from a supporting attitude and les shaming of people who have been victims of it, rather than people actually just raping more - which is likely the fruit of years of campaigning on the topic.

We still have absolutely woefully short penalties for rape. But then again, there's always the dilemma with proving whether there was indeed consent or not, etc., so I guess it's a very tricky business

So the answer is, "no they don't"; do you realize Sweden is a meme for its insane progressive suicidal policies? That's why I asked, it was random but I was interested in seeing the extent to which the outside perception was truly reflective of the views of average Swedes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/04/swedish-music-festivals-hit-by-reports-of-rapes-by-migrants/


http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/961/304/310.jpg

[Mazuuurk]

You and I don't look for "memes" on the same websites, that's for sure.
Could you post some links to your sources? It would be interesting to see some stats on this and where it comes from.

You may be referring to one scandal we had about a sort of cover-up of one rape where immigrants were involved, the problems about that is well depicted here:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/13/sex-assaults-sweden-stockholm-music-festival


And what's suicidal about our progressiveness, I don't know - whether you think it's 'insane' or not. In fact, I'd say in recent years Sweden has become less and less progressive, and it's worrying me quite a lot. Me, I don't see how progressing can ever be a bad thing.

[Bartholomert]

You and I don't look for "memes" on the same websites, that's for sure.
Could you post some links to your sources? It would be interesting to see some stats on this and where it comes from.

You may be referring to one scandal we had about a sort of cover-up of one rape where immigrants were involved, the problems about that is well depicted here:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/13/sex-assaults-sweden-stockholm-music-festival


And what's suicidal about our progressiveness, I don't know - whether you think it's 'insane' or not. In fact, I'd say in recent years Sweden has become less and less progressive, and it's worrying me quite a lot. Me, I don't see how progressing can ever be a bad thing.

Here are statistics: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape


How is it, then, that in 2008, Sweden's neighbor Denmark only had 7.3 rapes per 100,000 inhabitants compared to 53.2 in Sweden?

Danish legislation is not very different from Sweden's, and there is no obvious reason why Danish women should be less inclined to report rape than their Swedish counterparts. -To debunk your earlier explanation

It emerged that in 2002, 85% of those sentenced to at least two years in prison for rape in Svea Hovrätt, a court of appeals, were foreign born or second-generation immigrants. -Yes it is overwhelmingly immigrants

Here is a nice narrative of the situation: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3317978/Torn-apart-open-door-migrants-Sweden-seen-Europe-s-liberal-nation-violent-crime-soaring-Far-Right-march-reports-SUE-REID.html


In 15 years' time, demographers say, indigenous Swedes will be in a minority because the men who arrive are allowed to send home for wives and children, who in turn will have their own children. - This is collective suicide as a nation

[Sam]

How is that possible when the 2012 Sweden Statistics only had foreign background as 26.5% of the population? And that's including people where they've one parent who is an indigenous Swede.

Plus, I've no idea how that statistic above works? Surely those born to foreign linage but in Sweden are , for lack of a better term, Swedish (in the same vein as those of us with foreign descendants in England consider ourselves English).

[Sam]

Hell it seems the latest statistic I can find has Finnish as the largest immigrant group :D.

[Bartholomert]

How is that possible when the 2012 Sweden Statistics only had foreign background as 26.5% of the population? And that's including people where they've one parent who is an indigenous Swede.

Plus, I've no idea how that statistic above works? Surely those born to foreign linage but in Sweden are , for lack of a better term, Swedish (in the same vein as those of us with foreign descendants in England consider ourselves English).

An Indigenous Swede is one where both parents and ancestors are Swedish. There are no indigenous Americans for example except for Native Americans; I would be an American citizen but indigenous to the Caucasus Mountains probably with some Turkic and Semitic mixed in.

[Bernanke]

That Daily Mail-article, fucking hell. :D

Anyway, we have recently implemented among the strictest immigration rules in the entire EU, so we are safe as a majority for now.


People classified as Convention refugees receive three-year residence permit.

Subsidiary protection, the main group last year, the residence permit for 13 months.

When a temporary residence permit expires, the permanent residence permit may be granted if the person can support themselves.

A person aged under 25 shall only be granted permanent residence if he or she completed secondary school or equivalent.

Quota refugees will still be granted permanent residency.

Subsidiary protection shall not be entitled to family reunification.

Convention refugees should have the right to bring in a spouse, partner and children under 18 years.

A supply of requirements that means that you must be able to support the family members who come to Sweden.

[Mazuuurk]

The Mail article is not only very skewed, but it's also about a year old. That was during the big surge of Syrian migration across Europe, where every nation that had the - if you ask me - good grace of accepting as many refugees as possible, were having the same logistical problems. All of the things mentioned in the article were discussed to death here last year, from every angle.

The surge of reporting of racially/religiously contexual violence is not unique to Sweden but also an almost pan-european phenomenon that's been going on for several years. Whether the quota of violence comitted by immigrants have de facto increased (rather than violence in general having increased), I have yet to see any evidence of.

You may also be aware, that we did reach the - at least peceived - limit of how many refugees we could receive in such a short space of time, and Sweden are now not really accepting much more at all (they "closed the borders" for using the dramatical wording, which was a sad thing in itself but for many many reasons).


As for your first link with "stats", I'm sorry Mert but that is pure and absolute garbage, and if you can't see that yourself when you read it I'm starting to wonder what you were doing all those years at Duke, regardless of how fucked up your political views may be (in my eyes). The website is not a credible source of Swedish statistics. They quote a report made by such, but clearly state - themselves - that:


Significantly, the report does not touch on the background of the rapists. One should, however, keep in mind that in statistics, second-generation immigrants are counted as Swedes.

That sentence in itself is a little ridiculous, because second-generation immigrants ARE indeed Swedes. But more importantly it also highlights the fact that we don't keep record of what kind of person commits what kind of crime, because it's against the law in Sweden to map people out based on ethnicity and other demographical factors (we had a scandal a few years ago where some police tried it and were found out). The fact that they still keep insinuating certain people are committing these crimes more than others without any real proof that it's the case speaks for the stupidity of the authors.

The person that wrote (the woman) it is some sort of Anti-islamic activist. She keeps only sprouting anti-islamic nonsense on Twitter, it seems. The "radio station" she's referring to is a tiny podcast, that I with the same agenda as herself, in fact it seems to be outright racist, just like she is. The man is Danish and just as bad. They both work for a anti-islamic webpage called Dispatch International.


Check your sources, Mert.

Furthermore I might ask, why you even bother to ask me a question about my country when you seem to think you have a better grasp of the sociopolitical and demographic situation that Sweden is in than I do?

[elth]

Violent crime is down, death from war is down, death from disease is down. Statistically it's never been safer to be a human, and as long as you're not living in a warzone, that's true to an incredible extent.

It's just the the violent mass killings are such a shock when life is so generally safe. And of course everything's on TV now.

[Bartholomert]

The Mail article is not only very skewed, but it's also about a year old. That was during the big surge of Syrian migration across Europe, where every nation that had the - if you ask me - good grace of accepting as many refugees as possible, were having the same logistical problems. All of the things mentioned in the article were discussed to death here last year, from every angle.

The surge of reporting of racially/religiously contexual violence is not unique to Sweden but also an almost pan-european phenomenon that's been going on for several years. Whether the quota of violence comitted by immigrants have de facto increased (rather than violence in general having increased), I have yet to see any evidence of.

You may also be aware, that we did reach the - at least peceived - limit of how many refugees we could receive in such a short space of time, and Sweden are now not really accepting much more at all (they "closed the borders" for using the dramatical wording, which was a sad thing in itself but for many many reasons).


As for your first link with "stats", I'm sorry Mert but that is pure and absolute garbage, and if you can't see that yourself when you read it I'm starting to wonder what you were doing all those years at Duke, regardless of how fucked up your political views may be (in my eyes). The website is not a credible source of Swedish statistics. They quote a report made by such, but clearly state - themselves - that:



That sentence in itself is a little ridiculous, because second-generation immigrants ARE indeed Swedes. But more importantly it also highlights the fact that we don't keep record of what kind of person commits what kind of crime, because it's against the law in Sweden to map people out based on ethnicity and other demographical factors (we had a scandal a few years ago where some police tried it and were found out). The fact that they still keep insinuating certain people are committing these crimes more than others without any real proof that it's the case speaks for the stupidity of the authors.

The person that wrote (the woman) it is some sort of Anti-islamic activist. She keeps only sprouting anti-islamic nonsense on Twitter, it seems. The "radio station" she's referring to is a tiny podcast, that I with the same agenda as herself, in fact it seems to be outright racist, just like she is. The man is Danish and just as bad. They both work for a anti-islamic webpage called Dispatch International.


Check your sources, Mert.

Furthermore I might ask, why you even bother to ask me a question about my country when you seem to think you have a better grasp of the sociopolitical and demographic situation that Sweden is in than I do?

Take a moment to reflect how you instinctively engaged in an ad hominem attack trying to undermine the credibility of the writer of the article, instead of addressing the empirical facts she's cited. That is not how a civil academic dialogue is supposed to proceed. I'm not sure if you read the entirety of the link but there are studies which refer explicitly to the link between immigrants and crime before such reporting was banned. In fact my first posts quotes a study which found that 85% of convicted rapists with over two-year sentences in a particular locale were first or second generation immigrants. Disprove what's written, let's see your studies, I want to believe I'm wrong because it paints such a depressing bleak picture. I'll keep an open mind.

The reality is you are brainwashed; you refuse to entertain the idea of an alternative view point in the face of overwhelming evidence. The author may be racist, but her facts are real. Do you care more about political correctness or about the rape of Swedish women? Do you want your daughter to feel secure going to the swimming pool or walking alone at night? My little sister no longer feels that way I can tell you that.

Note: This is a fascinating glimpse into the mind of a progressive. I find the particular mental gymnastics to come up with the statement, "well look there's no explicit link between immigrants and criminality just a general rise in crime" to be particularly impressive. What is the one independent variable that has changed in Sweden? Why has crime exploded then? Why has crime decreased everywhere else? Why does Denmark have such a dramatically lower incidence of rape? Are they not also a feminist nation?

[Bartholomert]

Violent crime is down, death from war is down, death from disease is down. Statistically it's never been safer to be a human, and as long as you're not living in a warzone, that's true to an incredible extent.

It's just the the violent mass killings are such a shock when life is so generally safe. And of course everything's on TV now.

Not in Sweden. Crime has exploded in the past year in the US.

[Pepe]

My little sister no longer feels that way I can tell you that.

Isn't she going to Duke? She'd be far safer walking alone at night in Sweden than going into a 'frat.'

[Bartholomert]

Isn't she going to Duke? She'd be far safer walking alone at night in Sweden than going into a 'frat.'

Not yet, she's still in Germany for now.

[Lewis]

Why did Sweden and Denmark even take all of these Muslims in? Britain and France at least had some colonial ties with them, but other countries have basically done it to prove a point.

[Pepe]

Because they think it's the right thing to do?

[Lewis]

I can see the appeal of wanting to be the first country to prove all of world history wrong.

[elth]

Even if there is genuine evidence that violent crime has spiked in the last year, either in Sweden or the US, an n of 1 wouldn't outweigh the central trend of drastically lower global violence levels in the last 20 years generally, and developed Western countries specifically.

[Mazuuurk]

Take a moment to reflect how you instinctively engaged in an ad hominem attack trying to undermine the credibility of the writer of the article, instead of addressing the empirical facts she's cited. That is not how a civil academic dialogue is supposed to proceed. I'm not sure if you read the entirety of the link but there are studies which refer explicitly to the link between immigrants and crime before such reporting was banned. In fact my first posts quotes a study which found that 85% of convicted rapists with over two-year sentences in a particular locale were first or second generation immigrants. Disprove what's written, let's see your studies, I want to believe I'm wrong because it paints such a depressing bleak picture. I'll keep an open mind.

The reality is you are brainwashed; you refuse to entertain the idea of an alternative view point in the face of overwhelming evidence. The author may be racist, but her facts are real. Do you care more about political correctness or about the rape of Swedish women? Do you want your daughter to feel secure going to the swimming pool or walking alone at night? My little sister no longer feels that way I can tell you that.

Note: This is a fascinating glimpse into the mind of a progressive. I find the particular mental gymnastics to come up with the statement, "well look there's no explicit link between immigrants and criminality just a general rise in crime" to be particularly impressive. What is the one independent variable that has changed in Sweden? Why has crime exploded then? Why has crime decreased everywhere else? Why does Denmark have such a dramatically lower incidence of rape? Are they not also a feminist nation?

I read the whole article, as much as it pained me to do so.

And, first of all I never said there definitely wasn't a larger quota of immigrants committing crime either - I said I don't know, and I don't think anyone can, because there is in fact nothing concrete to support such a claim. In the same manner, I can't produce any documents that can viably claim otherwise.

What you can do, and what people or the Swedish Democratic Party (like the Michael Hess they talk about who referred to this study, is look for causative coincidences, such as "A) A lot of crime is being perpetrated in this Suburb and B) A lot of the residents of said suburb are immigrants and C) A lot of our immigrants come from Arabic countries so THAT must mean Muslims are criminals!".

There was a big study released by our police a few years ago where Harold were doing roughly what you are doing now and I tried (and failed, because it can't be done) to show him why he was wrong, when I actually read the study itself (which he didn't, since it was in Swedish).


Secondly, these people seriously can not be trusted to produce relevant facts. In fact, a lot of the representatives of that Party have over and over downright been lying about various stats, much like Nigel Farage seemed to be doing, have been called out on it, but keeps living in denial while they feed fear and anger amongst mainly those economically challanged. Now, for this particular persion, that may or may not be true, maybe this study is valid, but I seriously doubt it. It's also completely ridiculous to cite a 10-15 year old studies.


Thirdly, I find it quite insulting and petty that you'd call me Brainwashed when you - presumably - know much less about Sweden, Swedish culture & the current sociopolitical challanges we are facing than I think I do. Trust me, I've read countless articles like that one, they pop up every week here. I've also read countless articles that aim to disprove the far-right and anti-islamic movements in Sweden. People are throwing studies and twisting numbers left and right, especially in parlamentary debates, these days. I'm not going to sit and dig up lots of examples because they will mostly be in Swedish anyway, and also I quite honestly can't be bothered. So either you take my word for it and trust my judgement to be more informed on the topic than you are - what with living in Sweden and reading these news daily over and over for the past 5 years (just like I'm sure you have a better feel for Turkish or German affairs than I do), or you can just dismiss me as naive, which I suppose is comfortable, and I'm sure you will do in the end anyway.


Honestly, I don't think anyone completely really knows these things for sure. My guess, and I stress it's a guess, is:
- Crime is higher in poorer areas where people are usually also not well integrated into society.
- A lot of the time in Sweden, these areas are often inhabited by immigrants to a larger degree than richer areas (this is likely universally true in most countries)
(now, statistically, noone knows this for sure either I think, but you can tell as much from visiting said areas, I suppose, although that's hardly a very solid argument)
- However you can't for sure say that that means more crime is committed by immigrants. You can for sure say more crime is committed by poorer people, though, for instance.
- With regards to rape in specific, it's extremely hard to tell. It could just as well be that some foreigners have happened to get caught / reported with rape since they've done it to people they don't know - whereas surveys have proved that the vast majority of rape is committed by people close to the victim in some way - and that this creates skewed statistics (and also fuel for angry far-right people). But that's just my guess.


As for the Danish comparision, I already explained that, but you can read more here for instance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden#International_comparison

As you can see, nothing can really conclusively be said about that either.

[Mazuuurk]

Why did Sweden and Denmark even take all of these Muslims in? Britain and France at least had some colonial ties with them, but other countries have basically done it to prove a point.

I think from a cultural perspective it's quite deeply rooted in Swedish values to want to help other people out a fair amount (everything is relative, of course), so theres that.

From a socio-economical perspective, at least what I've heard, is that it was probably wisest to accept the early waves of refugees and then reject later, because then ones who flee first are usually the ones with better means and likely education in their home countries, which will probably benefit the country in the long run.

Of course, you could just decide to not accept anyone, but then again - back to point A and our sort of collective conscience.

That said, it's definitely given more strenght to a lot of racist undercurrents that have been flowing in society here during the past few years, much like in the UK I think.

[Bartholomert]

Mert:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/swedens-rape-crisis-isnt-what-it-seems/article30019623/

The first link I posted addresses all of the arguments made in that article and comprehensively debunks them with statistics. If you are unconvinced, when I get out of work I can very easily pick apart each single point, each one of which is either deeply and willfully dishonest or shockingly ignorant.

General response: Yes, Sweden's rape statistics are inflated due to a number of conflating factors; but it is still far far higher than it used to be or should be when adjusting for these changes. Yes, poverty and immigrant status go hand in hand as overlapping variables to explain the higher rate of criminality (which is far higher if you take into consideration 2nd generation "Swedes"), but controlling for every other variable there is still stark, shocking differences in rates of committing rapes. The link on the first page supports all of this with empirical evidence.

Anecdotal Turkish opinion: Many Muslim immigrants living in Europe have shocking, medieval views of women, especially Western women, that are utterly incompatible with a civilized nation organized on the basis of the equality of the genders. As I get older and reflect on my own views / beliefs when I was younger, even as a secular largely integrated and Westernized Turk, I see truly shameful traces of this prejudice. There is a HUGE gulf between moderate Muslim views of women and the traditional values Conservative / Republican Christian view.

[Mazuuurk]

Why do you use quotation marks for second generation immigrants? There's nothing unswedish about them. If they hold a Swedish passport - they are Swedish.

[Bartholomert]

Maz I appreciate you willing to write that all out, I was interested in trying to understand how Swedes explain away these seemingly self-evident realities, but obviously from your perspective the issue is far more complicated. My response would be that the media in Sweden and the entire political class is actively suppressing alternative views and desperately promoting a multicultural agenda that has failed the Swedish people; therefore as an outsider my view is less distorted and more emotionally detached than yours. Also for what it's worth, I've done summer camps in Stockholm, I'm not totally ignorant as to what the Law of Jante is ;) . Keep in mind I bought into the same arguments you were making for a long time too, but recently with events in Turkey, Cologne, and the increasing terrorist attacks I've tried to be more objective and really try and uncover the Truth.

Democracy and Western liberal values are a precious thing, it seems like they are slipping away in Europe...

[Bartholomert]

Why do you use quotation marks for second generation immigrants? There's nothing unswedish about them. If they hold a Swedish passport - they are Swedish.

They are not indigenous Swedes. I know it's uncomfortable to make this distinction, but it exists and we both know it.

[Pepe]

Good to have Harold back.

[Mazuuurk]

Maz I appreciate you willing to write that all out, I was interested in trying to understand how Swedes explain away these seemingly self-evident realities, but obviously from your perspective the issue is far more complicated. My response would be that the media in Sweden and the entire political class is actively suppressing alternative views and desperately promoting a multicultural agenda that has failed the Swedish people; therefore as an outsider my view is less distorted and more emotionally detached than yours. Also for what it's worth, I've done summer camps in Stockholm, I'm not totally ignorant as to what the Law of Jante is ;) . Keep in mind I bought into the same arguments you were making for a long time too, but recently with events in Turkey, Cologne, and the increasing terrorist attacks I've tried to be more objective and really try and uncover the Truth.

Democracy and Western liberal values are a precious thing, it seems like they are slipping away in Europe...

Fair enough. And yeah, it is definitely complicated. Though I'd say we have all kinds - we have people desperately trying to promote a protectionistic and quite racist agenda, there are those that do promote a multicultural, or perhaps progressive as you call it, agenda, more as a defensive mechanism though, I'd say. And there's those that remain fairly neutral, our largest morning newspapers, our public service TV...


They are not indigenous Swedes. I know it's uncomfortable to make this distinction, but it exists and we both know it.

We dont really have indigenous people. We have the Sami people who are indigenous, but they live across Sweden, Finland and Norway (and maybe Russia). What I think you are referring to is ethnicity (probably white caucasian) or perhaps cultural heritage - but I don't see how that matters at all to nationality. Of course many don't share that opinion.

[Disco]

Good to have Harold back.

This was a favourite subject of his (paging Dr Freud!), are we sure there isn't some account sharing going on.

[Bartholomert]

This was a favourite subject of his (paging Dr Freud!), are we sure there isn't some account sharing going on.

I don't believe, unlike Harold, this is an issue inherently with Islam but rather culture. When's the last time you've heard of a Turk committing one of these crimes, for example, and I'm sure that if you had mass immigration from a country like Uganda, you would have similar outcomes / difficulties with integration.

Ugh comparisons with Harold :sick:

I guess maybe he wasn't totally wrong on this subject after all.

[Bartholomert]

On that note shots fired at a Munich shopping mall:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/munich-shooting-shots-fired-oez-shopping-centre-mall-germany-city-munchen-armed-police-a7151186.html


One person has died and 10 others have been injured, a police spokerson has reportedly told AFP.

[Adramelch]

Up to 15 people killed from what I'm reading.

[Magic]

This is daily shit. Time to start deporting non-natives and camping natives.

[Pepe]

First comment:


Bosanac
Just another normal day in multicultural Europe.

:D

[Dquincy]

Rumours of shootings at a metro station in Germany as well.

[GS]

There's not much confirmed at the minute.

[Bernanke]

Exactly five years since Breivik, but if it's several shooters it might be IS again.

[GS]

If it turns out they came in as refugees, it's going to be a bit grim in mainland European politics. It's not so much the numbers either, but it undermines the prevailing narrative of how Merkel handled the refugee crisis. Once popular consent / acquiescence starts to erode, you get into seriously difficult territory.

They're saying it's three shooters, so it suggests it's planned. That alone would suggest IS, as opposed to any sort of 'lone cell' operating by itself.

[Dquincy]

I know England is an island which does help, but it's only a matter of time before London gets attacked again. It's 'when' not 'if'.

When I walk through KingsX concourse during rush hour there are so many people...the damage would be massive.

People will say this reinforces the Brexit vote.

[Giggles]

Whoever is planning one in London (or anywhere else in the UK or here) is already where they're going to do it anyway.

[GS]

They could still do it here, but it's going to be more difficult to a) get in here and b) get the weapons needed to undertake the attack.

It's far easier on the continent - the situation not helped by Merkel unilaterally suspending the Dublin regulation and allowing over a million undocumented 'refugees' to travel across mainland Europe.

That's not to say that's the sole reason, by the way, as it is clearly isn't.

[Bernanke]

Transcript of this video https://mobile.twitter.com/OnlineMagazin/status/756539012551176194 in order of things said:


Balcony Man: "You fucking Asshole you..."
Shooter: "Because of you I [unintelligible]..."
Balcony Man: "You cunt you. you're a cunt"
Shooter: "...and now I have to buy a gun to shoot you"
Balcony Man: "a gun fuck off your head isn't on right"
Shooter and Balcony man shouting at each other
Balcony Man apparently to people filming: "He's got a gun here the guy has one"
Shooter: "Shit/Fucking Turks!"
Balcony Man: "Shit/Fucking Kanacken" (foreigners basically)
Balcony man to someone else : "EY! HE'S GOT A GUN! He has loaded his gun! Get the cops here!"
Shooter: "I am German."
Balcony Man: "You're a cunt is what you are"
Shooter: "Stop filming!"
Balcony Man: "A cunt is what you are, what the fuck are you doing?"
Shooter: "Yeah what, I was born here!"
Balcony Man: "Yeah and what the fuck you think you're doing???"
Shooter: "I grew up here in the Hartz 4 (unemployment benefits in Germany) area.
Balcony Man and Shooter talk at same time, can't make it out.
Shooter says something about "Behandlung" which is "treatment" in both medical treatment or just how you treat people,not sure which one he means.
Balcony Man says something like "Yeah treatment is something for you"
Shooter: "I haven't done anything here for [unintelligible]"
Shooter: "Just shut your fucking face man"
Balcony Man: "You cunt you"
Balcony Man: "HEY! HE'S ON THE UPPER FLOOR HERE [unintelligible]"
Filming man goes into cover, shooter starts firing.
Balcony man calls him a cunt again.
Balcony man shouts something at him about "shooting here" and Shooter replies multiple times "Yeah, that's where you're right! Yeah you're right with that!" Yeah you're right!"
Video ends.

This is some Four Lions stuff. :D

[Pepe]

It's the refugees wot dun it.

[Yevrah]

I wonder how long it will take before we have one of these threads for each major European country.

[Lewis]

They provoked it by being there.

[Yevrah]

And there's clearly no reversing this now, so I imagine this is how life is going to be for a long time to come.

Lovely.

[Lewis]

We'll be alright, safe on the internet.

[-james-]

Feels like Britain is due, or have we been donning the surveillance game?

[Shindig]

For decades, son. Decades.

[GS]

Our surveillance services are very good, but they also cooperate closely at a national level. The Europeans seem to be shit at this.

[Bartholomert]

Surely the electorate won't accept this 'new normal'; expect fascist backlash.

I'm 100% very publicly and on the record rediscovering my love of Jesus Christ through the Apostolic Church. Fuck these medieval barbarians, they sicken me and I want absolutely no association with them.

[Pepe]

:harold:

[Bartholomert]

It's chill there's still Taqqiya if I get asked any sticky questions at the entrance to Paradise.

Also how is that 2nd Amendment Natural Right to private gun ownership looking right about now?

[GS]

Surely the electorate won't accept this 'new normal'; expect fascist backlash.

This is the concern. This is quite interesting on this issue:

756579167685050368

The only way you get public consent for immigration is by giving people confidence that it's managed and you know who's coming in. It's particularly relevant when people who express concern are labelled 'racist', 'intolerant' or 'selfish'. Failure to manage it makes events like this far more politically and socially toxic than they should be, and there could be a serious political problem developing for the Germans if it continues.

This assumes they're immigrants, of course. If it turns out to be right wing extremism, then that'll be different only to the extent it's a different branch of the same tree.

[niko_cee]

Britain is probably the most tolerant major nation in the world. I know it doesn't fit with our little Englander island race brexit vindaloo let's bash up Charlerois steroetype, but it is a reality. That's not to say it is any way perfect, it's just a million time less shit than most other places. It's why we haven't really had a proper national front style political mob since almost forever. Look at how long the massive racists have been drawing double digits in the polls in France, for example, forever. Proper multiculturalism works. Assimilation doesn't (other than for the Borg).

Not that this might not happen in London or wherever (seeing as some nuts [fucking idiots] botched kidnapping a soldier to presumably ne'er-do-well-with [seriously how do you fuck that up?]) but that'll just be statistical happenstance, more than the consequence of decades of being proper domestic wankers (regardless of being geopolitical wankers, which is of less import).

[Bartholomert]

Not to suck England's dick, but IMO I've lived in 7 countries for various lengths of time in my life and I would honestly rate England* first in terms of tolerance of foreigners / POC, America would be first but you need to be a White-ish foreigner to qualify. I would think this probably has something to do with the UK being a collection of nations for most of its history, but someone else could definitely elucidate on this line of thinking in a more informed fashion than me...

*England being London tho

[Magic]

U bin to Rovrem mAyt?

[Bartholomert]

Fox saying it's a White Nationalist. Lol at the state of Europe, what a mess.

[Pepe]

Still wouldn't happen if it wasn't for the refugees. Send them all back.

[Lewis]

The shooter was an eighteen year old German of Iranian descent. Typical Germans.

[Bartholomert]

The shooter was an eighteen year old German of Iranian descent. Typical Germans.

Not sure if 'ISIS inspired' because:

1. Iranians are Shia
2. He committed suicide; that's not how you get to Paradise

Thank God it wasn't a Turk

[elth]

Has more in common with the Columbine dickheads than anything particularly terroristic by the sounds of it, no matter what he was shouting.

[GS]

Aye, it looks like a lone nutter. Stand down, lads.

[GS]

Looks like there's been another lone nutter attack, although to be fair it's not made the main news yet so fuck knows.

757251612293423104

[Bartholomert]

Man what's going in Germany, their mental health programs are really doing poorly lately!

[Shindig]

Would a Syrian refugee really have access to that after being in the country a few months?

[GS]

757350813991854080

It's probably a gas leak and everyone is PANICKING.

[GS]

Maybe not - the 'local mayor' is confirming it was an explosive device. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36880758?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

[SvN]

Fucking hell.

[Bartholomert]

Ban wine bars, clearly they are dangerous locations for individuals to congregate

[SvN]

That's such a predictable and lazy post.

[GS]

There's an open air music festival in the area. Apparently the one dead is the bomber, so there's speculation it was a 'failed' suicide bombing in that he attacked the wine bar after being turned away from said festival.

As I said, you suspect it'll end up being a gas leak or something equally mundane. The Germans are just on high alert at the minute.

[Lewis]

lol at him if he couldn't even take anyone with him.

[Magic]

Confirmed explosive device.

[Bartholomert]

Confirmed explosive device.

Suicide bomber. If ever there was a time for a racist authoritarian to be president of the United States it's now.

[GS]

It's strange to think that there's a suicide bombing in Germany and it seems to warrant only minimal news coverage.

[Giggles]

It's strange to think that there's a suicide bombing in Germany and it seems to warrant only minimal news coverage.

The new normal.

[John]

It's strange to think that there's a suicide bombing in Germany and it seems to warrant only minimal news coverage.

Body count.

There was another nightclub shooting in Florida last night but there were only two dead so nobody is arsed about it.

[GS]

True. Still, it's a suicide bombing.

[Bartholomert]

Body count.

There was another nightclub shooting in Florida last night but there were only two dead so nobody is arsed about it.

Also because it was Black gang violence.

[Yevrah]

It's a good job Germany didn't let a load of people in they didn't really know much about.

[Magic]

Their self loathing and fear of NAZISM will be der untergang. Hitler still destroying Germanic legacy. :drool:

[Shindig]

Also because it was Black gang violence.

Kid victims, man. Hmmmm... Kid Victim should be my rap name.

[Kikó]

It's a good job Germany didn't let a load of people in they didn't really know much about.

Wasn't this guy in two years prior? It's not like it's one of the fresh batch.

And he was facing a future in Bulgaria. Bleak.

[GS]

He was, aye. I suppose the issue that will be highlighted is that he was a 'failed' asylum seeker.

Besides, Bulgaria may be bleak but it would certainly have been better than Homs or Aleppo.

[Shindig]

Aye, sending a failed asylum seeker back to a warzone is a bit catch-22. You get them out of your hair for a little while but they're more likely to come back bitter and radicalised. If they come back.

[Raoul Duke]

Some mentalist has killed a load of disabled people or something in Tokyo: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/25/tokyo-knife-attack-stabbing-sagamihara

[phonics]

I'm getting to start feeling more confident in the whole, the world isn't worse and we just have more information angle but I'd hate to flip-flop quite yet.

[Magic]

You pissed cunt?

[Lewis]

It's Japan. You can't really read anything into Japan.

[Magic]

Some mentalist has killed a load of disabled people or something in Tokyo: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/25/tokyo-knife-attack-stabbing-sagamihara

Former carer for the disabled. :D

I'd imagine Japanese care homes are a million times more brutal than ours.

[Pepe]

There's a good chance that that is his actual job and this is another case of The West misunderstanding the poor Jap(anese).

[Bartholomert]

I'm getting to start feeling more confident in the whole, the world isn't worse and we just have more information angle but I'd hate to flip-flop quite yet.

When was the last time there was a suicide bombing in Germany?

[Magic]

Some mentalist has killed a load of disabled people or something in Tokyo: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/25/tokyo-knife-attack-stabbing-sagamihara

BuzzFeed News ‏@BuzzFeedNews (https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedNews) 5h5 hours ago (https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedNews/status/757885886528749568)
Stabbing Attack Leaves 19 Dead In Japan’s Worst Mass Killing Since WWII



That can't be right, can it?

[Bartholomert]

Refugee ‘rapes pensioner, 79, in German cemetery while she visited sister's grave

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/693680/refugee-rape-pensioner-eritrea-germany-cemetary-Iddenbueren

Was this shit always happening before and it's only now that we're paying attention to it? What the fuck is wrong with humans...I would like to see demographic break down of who is committing these disgusting crimes.

[Lewis]

One dead, and six injured, in a 'mass stabbing' in London.

[Spoonsky]

I walked past Russell Square yesterday, now I'm in Salt Lake City and seen that on Facebook. Quite surreal (and sad).

[Kikó]

That was a close shave for you Spoons. Prayers are with you at this time.

[Giggles]

#Pray4Spoon.

[Dquincy]

Spoon, you should talk to a therapist with what you've been through and all.

[niko_cee]

Russell Square is such an anomalous little part of Central London.

This'll be another care in the community nutbar like that guy who tried to stab a bunch of people on the tube and got binned for life recently.

[Giggles]

Spoon, you should talk to a therapist with what you've been through and all.

What about me? I was in France. Twice.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I spent three years in Russell Square between '09 and '12. Things seem to have taken a turn for the sinister in those parts since then though, back then it was all about free bulghur wheat and sending letters of support to Latin American dictators, now it seems you have to be seriously in favour of Islamic terrorism in order not to be seen as scum. Having your own penis is a big problem too.

[Kikó]

Hope you're okay Jim. Another close call.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I was actually at King's Cross tube for the '05 bombings and part of the evacuation, which I then posted about on here later in the afternoon and Oimoi laughed at me for my supposed 'close call', the bully. I was only 16 or something.

[phonics]

Turns out it's just a nutter.

[Mazuuurk]

Unlike most people who go on stabbing rampages, you mean?

[Jimmy Floyd]

Sounds like a drugged up bloke to me.

[Mazuuurk]

Guys listen to Jim, he's got some serious hood experience of Russel Square.

[Magic]

Turns out it's just a nutter.

Was he a Muslim nutter though? I can accept a native, white nutter.

[Magic]

Norwegian Somalian. :harold:

[Bartholomert]

I don't really think the 'oh it's not terrorism, just a crazy guy who happened to be Muslim' creates as much of a distinction as people may think...at the end of the day why are you allowing immigration from countries who have a higher tendency to commit these violent acts regardless of the stated motives?

[phonics]

at the end of the day why are you allowing immigration from countries who have a higher tendency to commit these violent acts regardless of the stated motives?

What, Norway?

[Bartholomert]

Somalia...

[phonics]

He didn't immigrate from Somalia you moron. It would be the equivalent of not letting you in a country because your parents are from Turkey which has a history of stabbings of UK nationals.

[Bartholomert]

He didn't immigrate from Somalia you moron. It would be the equivalent of not letting you in a country because your parents are from Turkey which has a history of stabbings of UK nationals.

...yes it's a case to not let Somalians immigrate initially, not Norweigans...

[phonics]

Bring it up with Norway, 20 years ago, when he was born there.

[John]

...yes it's a case to not let Somalians immigrate initially, not Norweigans...

That rule would have stopped your parents leaving Turkey.

[Lewis]

Didn't some Somalians batter Samadini? They're all shit.

[Spoonsky]

That rule would have stopped your parents leaving Turkey.

Perhaps he's onto something.

[Magic]

Somalians are violent fuckers though, which is of little surprise when you look at the history of the country.

[Disco]

That's rich coming from a Scotch.

[Shindig]

I don't really think the 'oh it's not terrorism, just a crazy guy who happened to be Muslim'

I'd like to point out none of the above sentence makes any logical sense. Muslims do not all equate to terrorists. All mentalists are not terrorists are not Muslim. If there's no evidence of radicalisation, you can't just assume it's terrorism regardless. Abandon law school or at least pay better attention.

[John]

All mentalists are not terrorists are Muslim.

Abandon writing.

[Shindig]

Howay, give me time to edit, like. Bet you can't wait to flag the postie down when something gets delivered to yours by mistake. Twitchy.

[Bartholomert]

That rule would have stopped your parents leaving Turkey.

I went over this, my mother immigrated as an Armenian Christian on an H1B1 visa, and we have extensive extended family living in New York. That being said, who the fuck cares, I want to be safe just as much as the next person.

[Samadini]

Didn't some Somalians batter Samadini? They're all shit.

Cardiff :sick:

Fucking full of the cunts.

[Disco]

There were loads of Jamaicans when I lived there.

[GS]

Kingston was horrendous. I was there for two weeks, which clearly makes me an expert on the subject.

[niko_cee]

Wait. What?

[Lewis]

He says that now, but at the time he was calling everybody 'mon' and saying he wanted to live there.

[John]

It's a shame that picture of him with cornrows was lost to the old board.

[Samadini]

http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/carroll.png

[Magic]

GS would be like that tit off the inbetweeners but a much more exaggerated version. Imagine that in the slums of Kingston.

[Spikey M]

It's a shame that picture of him with cornrows was lost to the old board.

What? :|

[GS]

I had a chicken wing in one hand and a sample of 'the ganja' in the other.

It was some picture, albeit taken behind the protective gates and high walls of my hotel / compound in the city.

[Lewis]

I was going to make a shit weed joke, but 'the ganja' isn't going to be beaten.

[Spikey M]

Fletch, in the name of all that is holy, post the picture.

[Kikó]

He posted it in the group. PM bam for entry.

[Spikey M]

There's no way it actually exists so I'm going to stop digging. This way I can pretend.

[Byron]

There's no way it actually exists so I'm going to stop digging. This way I can pretend.

To be fair, I didn't believe it either, what a fucking picture that was.

[Magic]

I had it saved on my old PC with pictures of Teggy's head photoshopped on to Teddy Ruxpin.

[GS]

In more terror related news, some lad has attacked two police offers with a machete in Belgium.