Something is going down in Turkey

[Lee]

The army have apparently closed bridges into Istanbul with rumours of them disarming police. Low flying jets over Ankara too.

Erdogan on his jollies in Bodrum, according to various on Twitter.

[Bernanke]

Fighter jets is really odd. Coup?

[Lee]

It's all Twitter noise at the minute. Miltary coup or major anti-terror operation are the main rumours.

Heavy gunfire and an explosion reporte in Ankara, again according to Twitter so take it in that spirit.

If it's a coup though. :drool:

[Bernanke]

I'm reading rumours that Erdogan may have been killed. :drool:

Edit: Video of the jets flying low in Ankara:

https://twitter.com/Conflicts/status/754041460454981632

Why would you do that if it's an anti-terror operation?

[Lee]

Where's mert? Probably being sworn in as President.

[Gray Fox]

They've just heard Mert is there showing signs of Beta behaviour. Will be resolved soon.

[Lee]

The Turkish PM is saying that there is an attempted coup underway.

[Lewis]

The Turkish military loves a coup. They probably don't want to join the European Union.

[Spikey M]

We have multiple 24 hour news channels and not one of the cunts can keep up.

[Lee]

Sky News on to it now. Could be a good night of telly this. :drool:

[Bernanke]

Sky News on to it now. Could be a good night of telly this. :drool:

Went back to Nice immediately. I tried both CNN and Fox and they were as well.

Meh.

[Lee]

Fuckers.

[Boydy]

Even Al JAzeera isn't on it. They're on some Saudi diplomat's response to some 9/11 report.

[Lewis]

If the government falls, and if he can hang on for the Barack Hussein Obama, I think that will mean Bashar al-Assad has out-lasted everyone who originally wanted him to go. lol at that.

[Bernanke]

Fuckers.

Probably need to gather their eggs and set the table for something like this.

[GS]

A coup in Turkey. Outstanding. :drool:

[Lee]

Going out for some chocolate to accompany this, lads. Might have a bit of Turkish Delight.

[GS]

2016 is just a fucking bonkers year, really.

I doubt it's a full scale effort, but if they have access to the air force then fucking hell. Erdogan is alive, anyway.

[Adramelch]

The Turks do love their coups, to be honest. They do one every 20-25 years to break the boredom.

[Lee]

The military bods are secular, aren't they? Are we going to end up with a load of angry islamists just over the border from Syria? Fucking hell.

[GS]

They say it's a 'faction' in the military and it's without a chain of command, which suggests that it's not a full-blown rebellion.

[Kikó]

We just need north Korea to fire a nuke and we are full into a world war.

[Lee]

They say it's a 'faction' in the military and it's without a chain of command, which suggests that it's not a full-blown rebellion.

Whoever it is would seem to be in control of the air force.

It is being reported now that state tv has been shut down.

[Lewis]

They say it's a 'faction' in the military and it's without a chain of command, which suggests that it's not a full-blown rebellion.

That's how they happen. The top, top brass aren't going to risk their cushy lives, so younger generals kick it off, and then whoever doesn't declare gets forced into retirement.

[GS]

Lads.


Military claims takeover of Turkey

The Turkish military says in a statement that it has taken over, according to Reuters.

Christ.

[Lee]

And now the military are saying they've taken over.

[Boydy]

The PM is saying that they won't allow anyone to interrupt Turkish democracy.

:harold:

[Boydy]

That was quick.

[GS]

Erdogan's a twat, to be fair.

Lewis - what's the view here? They've had a few coups before. Good or bad?

[Giggles]

These things need to start happening earlier in the evening.

[Lee]

Military versus Police. This will be fun.

[Spikey M]

So, hows that buffer state for the EU holding up?

[Adramelch]

Erdogan's a twat, to be fair.

Lewis - what's the view here? They've had a few coups before. Good or bad?

If memory serves me well, typically the coups are more "anti-islamic".

[Yevrah]

A coup? Fucking really.

[Lewis]

If memory serves me well, typically the coups are more "anti-islamic".

The full-blown takeovers were more anti-communist, but the threat-based ones have been anti-Muslamic. My guess would be that the military blame government policies for all the terrorism they have been experiencing, and that they have decided that this is the only way to put a stop to those. If so, that would presumably mean washing their hands of Syria.

[Gray Fox]

Get Boris over there. He'll sort it out.

[Bernanke]

If the government falls, and if he can hang on for the Barack Hussein Obama, I think that will mean Bashar al-Assad has out-lasted everyone who originally wanted him to go. lol at that.

Still doesn't hold a candle to Fidel though.

[Lewis]

My cousin was due to fly out to Turkey next Monday. :harold:

[Boydy]

754054321327706112

:D

lll

[Magic]

Fuck and I'm stuck in some council estate shithole whilst it's all KICKING OFF.

[Bernanke]

1:38 PM - 15 Jul 2016 Aron Lund @aronlund
While the Turkish coup seems to be real, reports of gunfire in Bashar al-Assad's office in Damascus are false. Those are champagne corks.


Get Boris over there. He'll sort it out.

http://www.tottenhamjournal.co.uk/polopoly_fs/1.1467382!/image/2809413633.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_630/2809413633.jpg

[Adramelch]

Apparently the General of the Armed forces is being held hostage.

[Lee]

Erdogan has been moved to safety in Marmaris. He's getting a tour of all the seaside resorts tonight.

[Bernanke]

"Worth noting, the Turkish military has a constitutional clause where they are supposed to overthrow the government if the government poses a threat to secularity"

Based Ataturk.

[Lee]

The BBC are having a mare with this. How is this not the main headline tonight?

[GS]

754057900876828672

[Bernanke]

Mert should be banned if he doesn't show up here within the next hour or so.

[Magic]

I love 2016. Its a precursor to absolute and total world war. :drool:

[SvN]

It really has been a fucking shocking 12-18 months. My friend, who has recently become a Jehovah's Witness, said this year is evidence for the fact that the reckoning (or whatever they call it) is upon us.

[Giggles]

Mert should be banned if he doesn't show up here within the next hour or so.

Is Mert not really a yank?

[SvN]

He's Turkish or American, depending on what point he's trying to make.

[Spikey M]

Yeah, lets not make this about Mert, hey?

[Giggles]

So how much of this actually involves our good friend Vladimir?

[Lewis]

Yeah, lets not make this about Mert, hey?

This wouldn't have happened if the government had a military.

[Magic]

Serbia to annex Constantinople?

[Magic]

Lol at my geography. I forgot the Ottoman receded that far.

[GS]

The Russians always wanted it.

[Bernanke]

The US secretary of state John Kerry says he hopes there will be peace, stability and unity within Turkey amid reports that a military coup is underway.

So Nato is a-ok with this since he's not calling it an attack on democracy. Erdogan is toast, and whoever is behind this is apparently legit enough for the US and others to want to work with them.

[Spikey M]

:D Lewis

[Bartholomert]

Not sure where this thread is with updates, I've been on the phone with my parents / family to make sure everybody is okay and secure.

It's Kemalists; they have vowed to restore Separation of Powers, Secularism, democracy and closer ties with their NATO allies while honoring all their existing agreements with other countries. They have taken over the main television station and are broadcasting their manifesto. Unreal.

[Bartholomert]

Erdogan is giving statements on television via video chat.

[Giggles]

Erogan claiming it's not over yet.

[Lee]

Erdogan on Facetime. :D

"We'll do what it takes even if it means fatalities."

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

This is quality TV.

[Bernanke]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cnb53-SWgAAHnso.jpg

What a time to be alive. :D

[Yevrah]

Who is behind this and what the fuck is going on?

The western world is shaping up to be a truly shit place very soon at this rate.

[GS]

A European Union source tells the Reuters news agency: "It looks like a relatively well orchestrated coup by a substantial body of the military, not just a few colonels." "They control several strategic points in Istanbul. Given the scale of the operation, it is difficult to imagine they will stop short of prevailing," the source adds.

[Bernanke]

Who is behind this and what the fuck is going on?

The western world is shaping up to be a truly shit place very soon at this rate.

Secular military opposing Erdogan moves towards a religious dictatorship.

If this goes smoothly it's a great thing Yev.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

Who is behind this and what the fuck is going on?

The western world is shaping up to be a truly shit place very soon at this rate.

Erdogan is hardly good news.

[Kikó]

Who is behind this and what the fuck is going on?

The western world is shaping up to be a truly shit place very soon at this rate.

Just as Foe's finances were sorting themselves out.

[Magic]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cnb53-SWgAAHnso.jpg

What a time to be alive. :D

I love that. It's like something you'd see on Mock the Week.

[Lewis]

lol he's asking for asylum in Germany. He could have had Idi Amin's old flat in Saudi Arabia.

[Yevrah]

Secular military opposing Erdogan moves towards a religious dictatorship.

If this goes smoothly it's a great thing Yev.


Erdogan is hardly good news.

That's as maybe, but via a military coup?

[Kikó]

They should have at least tried hashtags first.

[Giggles]

That's as maybe, but via a military coup?

Well they tried asking nicely first, but he ate the chocolates and said no.

Like, really?

[Lee]

That's as maybe, but via a military coup?

It's Turkey, not France. It's mainly a backward shithole.

The military apparently has a constitutional right to take action to uphold secular government. Which is mental to us, of course.

[Magic]

That's as maybe, but via a military coup?

Yes. Fuck him he's as Islamist imperialist prick.

[Baz]

I thought coup/coop was a chicken/Turkey pun. :stamford:

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

https://twitter.com/russian_market/status/754067608547229697

:D

[Giggles]

Kicking off big style now in Ankara.

[Bartholomert]

Who is behind this and what the fuck is going on?

The western world is shaping up to be a truly shit place very soon at this rate.

Kemalists. It is a very powerful ideology in the minds of many (mostly secular and White) Turks.

[-james-]

Morris Cabrioli @insidegame 1m1 minute ago Lombardy, Italy
Germany rejects asylum to Erdogan - US government sources

flol

[Bartholomert]

Also for the record, in the Turkish Constitution the 4th branch and ultimate fail safe to uphold the Constitution itself is the military. These are emphatically the good guys and have done this multiple times in the past, each time returning back to their posts after reestablishing rule of law.

[Davgooner]

Was following the flights turning back from Istanbul earlier. Those on the ground have all kept transponders on as well.

[Bartholomert]

Apparently lots of people in Istanbul following Erdogan's call to take to the streets. Could be some conflict there soon.

Civilians are never harmed during coups. There won't be conflict, but the Army might back down.

[Gray Fox]

Shots fired around the Presidential complex now.

[Kikó]

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/754065898470858753

754065898470858753

[Bartholomert]

Shots fired around the Presidential complex now.

Erodagan is in a safe house in Marmaris so he won't be the target, maybe symbolic.

[Lewis]

Driving a tank through a crowded street must give you the biggest lob on.

[Magic]

Driving a tank through a crowded street must give you the biggest lob on.

Is it in to a crowd of mothers and children?

Even bigger hard on if so.

[Bartholomert]

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/754065898470858753

754065898470858753

The broadcast made a particular effort to stress that they would honor all their international commitments and would endeavor to work closer with the West.

Also very odd:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/john-kerry-turkey-coup-225632

"Kerry: I hope there will be ‘stability, peace, continuity' within Turkey"

Very very odd that he did not immediately condemn.

[Boydy]

Driving a tank through a crowded street must give you the biggest lob on.

:D

[Bartholomert]

Fair enough. Do you reckon this coup's got much chance? Or will fizzle out over the next few hours?

Depends entirely on if other parts of the military spontaneously rise up and join the rebels. It could genuinely go either way, it's been many hours now and absolutely no evidence of any counter attack.

[Kikó]

754070826815807488

Mental video. Blokes on tanks.

[Max Power]

My mate in Turkey is shitting her pants. Embassy told them to pack up and be ready to roll ASAP

[Lee]

Don't switch off the gun battle on the bridge you stupid bitch.

[Bartholomert]

Friend is broadcasting FB Live from streets of Istanbul near Taksim; utterly deserted.

[Bartholomert]

There seems to be universal condemnation amongst politicians. Is that usual?

Gunfire ringing out in Istanbul, according to Reuters, and live on Al Jazeera. Very precarious this.

Yes. They have to, otherwise they will get executed for treason.

[Bartholomert]

754070826815807488

Mental video. Blokes on tanks.

This is the nightmare scenario for the Army. They don't want to kill civilians.

[Lee]

Where you watching, Lee?

Sky. Looked like things were getting interesting on a bridge in Istanbul. There was gunfire and people running about a bit. To be fair she probably didn't want to be broadcasting live death. But still.

[Gray Fox]

The tanks are starting to open fire now to sez Twitter.

[Lee]

Sounds like there are proper battles going on.

[Magic]

Military. :drool:

[Bartholomert]

Army firing on civilians at Bosphorus Bridge.

[Lewis]

If shooting a few hundred people gets them over the line, they'll do it.

[Yevrah]

And this is why I reacted in the way I did to the news of a military coup.

What a shambles.

[mikem]

Mert, when we used to train with them in Turkey the army was always portrayed as the most trusted, competent, and least corrupt institution. Is that still the case or have some of the trials and power struggles over the last ten years changed that perception? Or was it never actually true?

Hope your family stays safe.

[SvN]

This woman speaking on Sky News sounds like she could burst into tears at any moment.

[GS]

Erdogan is flying to London, apparently, after the Germans told him to fuck off.

"Mr Erdogan, meet Bori...."

[Dquincy]

This is what the middle/uppwr class should have done in the UK after the Brexit referendum.

A middle class coup if you will.

[niko_cee]

Le Terroir.

[Gray Fox]

BBC footage of one of the bridges clearly showing a couple of people lying unattended. Hard to see properly but at a guess dead/badly injured.

EDIT: They showed some getting gunned down before cutting away. I'm sure of it.

[Bartholomert]

Mert, when we used to train with them in Turkey the army was always portrayed as the most trusted, competent, and least corrupt institution. Is that still the case or have some of the trials and power struggles over the last ten years changed that perception? Or was it never actually true?

Hope your family stays safe.

It used to be. But the government under Erdogan has systematically waged a PR war, painting them as having undemocratic / tryannical tendencies, and degraded its command structure replacing key positions with their own sympathizers. Erdogan supporters in particular no longer view it with the same degree of exulted respect; but still, the Turks are a very militaristic society and a big core of the more nationalist, Kemalist portion of the country are still fanatic supporters.

It's tough to really describe how deeply moved Turks are by ideologies, many many are genuinely ready to give their lives to uphold Kemalism out of a sense of patriotic duty.

[GS]

I'm only basing this off Twitter, but it seems there are some fairly significant protests against the coup. The police have called the populace out, and mosques are repeatedly calling for people to go out and protest it. Some protestors tried to cross one of the bridges and were fired on by the army.

It looks like the army might have to go balls deep if they want to see it through.

[Kikó]

754085455289786368

More with military and the public.

[Bartholomert]

I'm only basing this off Twitter, but it seems there are some fairly significant protests against the coup. The police have called the populace out, and mosques are repeatedly calling for people to go out and protest it. Some protestors tried to cross one of the bridges and were fired on by the army.

It looks like the army might have to go balls deep if they want to see it through.

It's tough to tell for sure, I would take any news with a grain of salt.

[SvN]

Booing :D

[Bartholomert]

754085455289786368

More with military and the public.

They are chanting, "Our soldiers are the best soldiers."

Not sure if due to them standing down or just pro-soldier protesters.

[GS]

754084839406575616

754087195653337089

[Kikó]

754087073578098688

Wonder if insurance will cover that.

[Pleb]

Am I right in saying that the Turkish president wanted asylum in Germany and they rejected that motion?

That's a bit :D if true.

[Gray Fox]

BBC source says a fighter jet has shot down a military helicopter.

[Dquincy]

754087073578098688

Wonder if insurance will cover that.
Hitting a tank with a stick. Nobheads.

[Dquincy]

BBC source says a fighter jet has shot down a military helicopter.
Who owns the fighter jet?

[Bartholomert]

Erdogan is flying to London, apparently, after the Germans told him to fuck off.

"Mr Erdogan, meet Bori...."

Link?

[Gray Fox]

Who owns the fighter jet?

State supporting jet, shooting coup helicopter I believe.

[Kikó]

https://twitter.com/skyblue66/status/754090176608137216

Helicopter opening fire on the punters.

[Lewis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nifdpFOY1FQ

[Bartholomert]

Will Erdogan come out of this with stronger backing or are the divisions so ingrained that things will remain relatively unchanged?

My gut would say largely unchanged. The people who don't support Erdogan are also the sort who view Coups as legitimate and necessary to uphold the Constitution.

[Bartholomert]

This is the nightmare scenario for the Army. They don't want to kill civilians.

Yep. Seems like there does seem to be large masses protesting the Army. I don't see this ending with anything other than Erdogan triumphing.

[Spikey M]

Off the back of my holidays to Turkey I am most impressed that someone (anyone) got Facetime to work.

[Gray Fox]

Helicopter shot at a police HQ, killing 17. Jet responds by shooting down copter.

Jets out to 'neutralize' all helicopters now apparently. Looks like merely a case of whether they will come quietly or go down fighting.

[Magic]

This is awesome.

For TTH activity levels.

[Spikey M]

London needs to riot again if we're really going to peak

[Spikey M]

A bomb has him Parliament now.

[Gray Fox]

Police have started to arrest some coup military. Just depends now if the rest come quietly.

[Gray Fox]

Looks like it's over. There have been civilian casualties though unfortunately.

[Bartholomert]

Yeah it's over. Erdogan apparently to land in Istanbul shortly.

[Lewis]

Well that was shit.

[John]

What a crap country. Even when they threaten to be vaguely interesting for a while it's done in a few hours. Twats.

[Gray Fox]

The parliament building is still being bombed. Ankara is still unsafe.

[Bartholomert]

Yeah and the army has taken over two different TV broadcasting stations now and apparently tanks are rolling to the airport Erdogan was rumored to be landing at. Congress is currently being bombed. Pretty surreal the channels are giving a live feed as their building is being cleared and the soldiers make their way up to the studio.

I don't see how this can lead to anything, but they're still kicking.

[Gray Fox]

Coup soldiers or government soldiers?

[Bartholomert]

Coup soldiers or government soldiers?

Coup.

It's ridiculous, CNN Turk is literally broadcasting an empty studio as the producer is slowly shepherding everyone out. They requested a technician off-screen to cut off the feed.

[Bartholomert]

This is insane. People yelling off-camera, "We came here to die" "You ruined this country with propaganda" Gunshots ringing out "Don't do it, Please God don't do it"

[Lewis]

I wonder if they've come to the conclusion that if this one doesn't work then it might be the end of the fine tradition.

[Bartholomert]

Every single major news channel is now off-line for me. Apparently people were killed on live TV on one of the channels.

[Bartholomert]

I think they shut all the television channels down and now they're going to go impose martial law and kill a bunch of civilians. That's my hunch.

[Bernanke]

Where is this video of some dude getting run over by a tank?

[Giggles]

It was all over as soon as people started asking mert serious questions as if he isn't a dickhead.

[Dquincy]

It was all over as soon as people started asking mert serious questions as if he isn't a dickhead.

I'm pretty sure this was the reason the coup failed. Well done everybody.

[Clunge]

All they did to the media was get them to read out a shonky statement. They were off air for about an hour, during which time, the worst coup of all time fell apart. Bonza.

[Dquincy]

Yeah, but they held those bridges like a boss.

I think it was just missing a Souness inspired ramming a flag into the ground somewhere. Then the Turks would have known this was serious.

[Lee]

I've woken up and they've fucked it all up? Useless cunts.

[elth]

I kinda thought I was living in a post-coup world in the modern(ish) world, but apparently not.

Erdogan will have fun blaming it on whoever he sees as the biggest internet threat and purging them, even if they had nothing to do with it.

[Lee]

Mert's fucked if he's going after the biggest internet threat.

[elth]

The only thing Mert's a threat to is a lady 4 beers down who says "no".

Internal.

[GS]

754097584692690944

It looks like this could well be the last hurrah of a secular Turkey.

[Magic]

When they join the EU. :drool:

[GS]

We'll probably find out they've been summarily executed.


More than 100 'coup plotters' killed
Posted at
09:24
Acting army chief General Umit Dundar says some 104 "coup plotters" have been killed.

Earlier, we reported that 90 people had been killed in the clashes, and it is now confirmed that this number refers only to police and civilians.

The general says 41 police and 47 civilians "fell martyrs".

This brings the estimated total number of dead as a result of the coup attempt to nearly 200.

[Foe]

http://i65.tinypic.com/2yxprhf.png

What's Diego Costa doing in Turkey?
#transfergossip

[Magic]

Lol at using the term martyr.

[Magic]

Christ they are looking to execute all the soldiers involved.

[Bartholomert]

Turkey as a secular civilized nation is finished. Thank God I have an American passport. Ataturk was right all along; Western values and Islam are irreconcilable.

[Bartholomert]

Lol at using the term martyr.

It's a mistranslation but there's no other word to describe it in the English language.

[GS]

Turkey as a secular civilized nation is finished. Thank God I have an American passport. Ataturk was right all along; Western values and Islam are irreconcilable.

It would be good if you could expand on the latter point. My knowledge of it is a bit sketchy.

[Bartholomert]

It would be good if you could expand on the latter point. My knowledge of it is a bit sketchy.

Not sure if you're being serious?

This was the last chance to save the country and reclaim Kemalist values. No homo but my family / friends have been crying a lot at the outcome because there's this feeling that we're just going to become another Iran; a slightly more wealthy shit hole of an Islamist nation. Our family was always more conservative and didn't believe in the suppression of Islam and thought it to be an important part of the nations heritage; Western values of tolerance required openness. We always spoke out against the fascist Islamaphobes who warned that Islam was a virus that destroyed every institution it touched, I lost many friends arguing in favor of Erdogan and the democratic process.

Unfortunately I see now that they may have been right. Maybe demographically this was an inevitable result, White Secular Turks were always a minority and it was only the greatness of Ataturk that bought us a few generations...sad, just very sad.

[Lewis]

The bloke was a colossus, but wasn't Kemalism always a rich liberal ('progressive') concern, making it vulnerable to democracy and properly-mobilised whatever? Which makes you wonder whether its ideals could have been better integrated into society over the years, and whether having the military in the background made people complacent about that.

[Bartholomert]

The bloke was a colossus, but wasn't Kemalism always a rich liberal ('progressive') concern, making it vulnerable to democracy and properly-mobilised whatever? Which makes you wonder whether its ideals could have been better integrated into society over the years, and whether having the military in the background made people complacent about that.

It was an upper and middle class concern...but it was heavily indoctrinated into all school children. Ataturk is on all of our money, his picture is in every single school classroom, his statute in front of every school, and up until 20 years ago, in nearly every persons home (including our own). Think about this; my dad, who is from a provincial city in Turkey far from Istanbul, does not know how to pray because when he was younger it was considered uncivilized to go to the Mosque. That's unfathomable today. The Kemalists had won and integrated their vision.

In my opinion the reason the Kemalist status quo collapsed is because the West, which was always the beacon of guidance for the ruling class in Turkey, got soft after WWII and started to doubt and challenge the supremacy of its own value systems. The Turkish elites intellectually followed suit (not to mention they got beta af); you saw the first open criticisms of any of Ataturk's policies. As a result, you saw the emergence of distinctly Islamic brands of politics, which came in ever more powerful cycles of repression and resurgence. More and more people who would have formerly resisted this phenomenon started shrugging and saying, 'well all opinions / value systems are valid and have a place in democracy, who are we to claim that secularism is some sacred tenant.' A few elections and a decade of (somewhat) fortuitous economic prosperity later, you've got a largely unopposed Islamist tyrant running the country.

There's also something in there about how the Islamists embraced capitalism and open markets while the Kemalists didn't, that in itself might have been there undoing.

[Bartholomert]

"The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

- Thomas Jefferson

[Shindig]

You could've just asked nicely, mate. America would've been in American hands in the 50s.

[Lewis]

Three thousand judges have been sacked, eleven Supreme court Judges arrested, arrest warrants out for over a hundred Constitutional Court judges... You wonder how it failed with all this support. Would it be possible to stage a Reichstag fire in this day and age?

[Bartholomert]

Three thousand judges have been sacked, eleven Supreme court Judges arrested, arrest warrants out for over a hundred Constitutional Court judges... You wonder how it failed with all this support. Would it be possible to stage a Reichstag fire in this day and age?

My dad is saying that they got far far closer than the media ever portrayed, and that this extended far beyond simply Ankara and Istanbul. There was coordination across every branch of the military forces, at one point they controlled the Police HQ, the Army HQ, the main TV broadcasting station, all major avenues of transportation in the cities, had the 4 most high ranking generals in custody in addition to just about every high ranking official who isn't in Erdogan's immediate circle. They bombed his hotel and knew exactly where he was staying. Etc.

This was very deep, the general consensus is that it was succeeding up until the point that Erdogan was able to mobilize his supporters to go out into the streets. Big culprit was the fucking media coming out in favor of Erdogan because they 'believe in upholding democracy'; idiots, there won't be any democracy to uphold because of you...

[Lewis]

That's interesting, and would explain the extent of the arrests; but then why didn't more forces make it out onto the streets?

[Bartholomert]

That's interesting, and would explain the extent of the arrests; but then why didn't more forces make it out onto the streets?

Because of the tradition that during Coup D'Etats citizens must remain unharmed. They were unwilling to impose martial law by force.

For example all the broadcasting stations, the airport, the bridges, etc; where taken back not by Government forces, but by masses of people who swarmed the military (sometimes with their own guns) and took them under custody. There are pictures of soldiers being beheaded / lynched by mobs of people. Historically, when this sort of thing happened, the people would respect the martial law and stay at home. They honestly played it pretty well by the book, they just underestimated the power of the media / the people* to rise up.

* The people here represent maybe 5% of the population of the hardcore Erdogan supporters, but that's still millions and very capable of overwhelming an army force of a few thousand who is largely unwilling to retaliate.

There are also strong suggestions that this was done with the tacit support of at least the United States, hence Erdogan saying things like "anybody who helps Gulen is an enemy of Turkey"

[GS]

Apparently they want to reinstate the death penalty for the plotters, and he's also moving against the media.

I suspect we'll all come to regret that this coup didn't succeed.

[Lewis]

Because of the tradition that during Coup D'Etats citizens must remain unharmed. They were unwilling to impose martial law by force.

For example all the broadcasting stations, the airport, the bridges, etc; where taken back not by Government forces, but by masses of people who swarmed the military (sometimes with their own guns) and took them under custody. There are pictures of soldiers being beheaded / lynched by mobs of people. Historically, when this sort of thing happened, the people would respect the martial law and stay at home. They honestly played it pretty well by the book, they just underestimated the power of the media / the people* to rise up.

* The people here represent maybe 5% of the population of the hardcore Erdogan supporters, but that's still millions and very capable of overwhelming an army force of a few thousand who is largely unwilling to retaliate.

There are also strong suggestions that this was done with the tacit support of at least the United States, hence Erdogan saying things like "anybody who helps Gulen is an enemy of Turkey"

Tradition is great, but if you're up against that then you have to waste a few people. Look at the Egyptians.

[GS]

Quite. You suspect that if they'd managed to get Erdogan into custody and been willing to shoot a few people, they'd have won.

[Pepe]

I do have to give credit to people that hear 'coup' and go out to the streets to protest. The TTH collective would all be at home shitting our pants.

[Magic]

Apparently they want to reinstate the death penalty for the plotters, and he's also moving against the media.

I suspect we'll all come to regret that this coup didn't succeed.

Who is 'we'?

[Pepe]

Somehow about Liverpool.

[GS]

Who is 'we'?

The west.

[Lee]

Fuck's sake mert, you should post like this all the time. :thbup:

[Shindig]

If I had a significant part of my military a little peeved, I'd look to see what I can offer them, rather than purge.

[Magic]

The west.

Why?

[GS]

Why?

Erdogan has been steadily clamping down on dissent in the opposition and in the media. A failed coup gives him the opportunity to clamp down further, and move towards the far less secular country he wants Turkey to be. He's trying to change the constitutional settlement to concentrate more powers in the presidency, which he'll probably get away with once he's purged people he doesn't like from the army, judiciary, media etc.

Give Turkey's strategical importance in the Middle East at the minute (on the migrant crisis and against ISIS), this uncertainty is a big problem. The coup appears to have been by a military attempting to maintain Turkey's secular tradition in the manner of similar efforts in the past, so if Erdogan succeeds in establishing the Islamist-driven, strong executive presidency he's after he could present considerable difficulty for the west in the region.

To that end, a coup to reaffirm Turkey's secular nature and the election of someone less hardline and less desirous of a dictator's power would probably have been a good thing. For the west, at least.

Then again, this assumes that Erdogan's supporters wouldn't have caused huge trouble at their lad getting booted out.

[Giggles]

Fuck's sake mert, you should post like this all the time. :thbup:

Jaysus don't encourage the can of piss.

[Magic]

If Turkey falls Mert might just win best poster.

[John]

Jaysus don't encourage the can of piss.

Fuck off. Mert has been excellent on this.

[Giggles]

Fuck off. Mert has been excellent on this.

Fuck off and stop having such a short memory. And since when does his usual shit like 'no homo' constitute excellent? He's a fucking piece of excrement.

[Yevrah]

Yep. +1 for mert here, he's been properly good.

[John]

You can look past that 'no homo' shit when there's something of substance to the post, and on this occasion he's bringing plenty to the table in terms of knowledge of the situation and a viewpoint we wouldn't be hearing otherwise.

That said, he's better than you in general anyway.

[Giggles]

You can look past that 'no homo' shit when there's something of substance to the post, and on this occasion he's bringing plenty to the table in terms of knowledge of the situation and a viewpoint we wouldn't be hearing otherwise.

That said, he's better than you in general anyway.

Like I give a fuck about that, it's merely a passing joke these days anyway so why bother?
He's mildly better, far from excellent, and you're as much of an actual Turk as that silver spoon yank fucker is.

[igor_balis]

Mert :cool:

[niko_cee]

Chris Bryant's take on this is, erm, interesting.

[Dquincy]

Mert, I'll give you a 3/10. Well done.

[GS]

There's some interesting research here given the debate about a secular versus Islamic-influenced Turkey: http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/04/27/the-divide-over-islam-and-national-laws-in-the-muslim-world/?utm_content=buffer719da&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Key data:

http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2016/04/How-much-should-the-Quran-influence-our-countrys-laws.png

[Lee]

Is there any chance this was set up by Erdogan, or at least carried out with his knowledge? Or is that just conspiracy theory bollocks?

He obviously likes a bit of power grabbing and we've gone quickly from a bloke calling for resistance via FaceTime to a massive purge of people he doesn't like and who probably had fuck all to do with the coup anyway.

[phonics]

The idea that the Quran doesn't influence Indonesian politics is an absolute joke. It's one of the worst countries for it.

Pakistan as a country is something that's going to completely bite us in the ass if it hasn't already (Bin Laden etc.)

[GS]

Is there any chance this was set up by Erdogan, or at least carried out with his knowledge? Or is that just conspiracy theory bollocks?

He obviously likes a bit of power grabbing and we've gone quickly from a bloke calling for resistance via FaceTime to a massive purge of people he doesn't like and who probably had fuck all to do with the coup anyway.

I doubt it. You'd imagine it weakened his authority somewhat, irrespective of the fact he's now back to summarily hanging people he doesn't like.

I'd say the conspiracy theories about the Americans etc. being sanguine about the coup are probably fair, mind you. They were referring to it as the "Turkish uprising" and they only stated their support for the "democratic government" once it became clear he was going to survive.

[phonics]

Is there any chance this was set up by Erdogan, or at least carried out with his knowledge? Or is that just conspiracy theory bollocks?

He obviously likes a bit of power grabbing and we've gone quickly from a bloke calling for resistance via FaceTime to a massive purge of people he doesn't like and who probably had fuck all to do with the coup anyway.

While I understand this line of thinking, I just can't think that of someone growing up in a modern society, would be down to murder a few hundred people to keep power. Maybe I'm naive and don't realise what a ruthless asshole he is. (and he's definitely a gigantic asshole)

[GS]

The idea that the Quran doesn't influence Indonesian politics is an absolute joke. It's one of the worst countries for it.

Pakistan as a country is something that's going to completely bite us in the ass if it hasn't already (Bin Laden etc.)

Pakistan's nuclear weapons are a concern. We'd be better tacitly supporting the Indians and letting them bulldoze over the border at some point.

[Magic]

Is there any chance this was set up by Erdogan, or at least carried out with his knowledge? Or is that just conspiracy theory bollocks?

He obviously likes a bit of power grabbing and we've gone quickly from a bloke calling for resistance via FaceTime to a massive purge of people he doesn't like and who probably had fuck all to do with the coup anyway.

He's managed to remove loads of people not on his side from government the courts the army etc by just blaming them for the coup. I'd say it's been pretty successful.

[ItalAussie]

The idea that the Quran doesn't influence Indonesian politics is an absolute joke. It's one of the worst countries for it.

I've been there, and it is heavily dependent on where you are.

The only places which are really hard-line are Aceh, and some of the more contested areas around there. Jakarta (and the rest of Java) is more moderate, although still clearly influenced by Islam. There's plenty of people around not wearing traditional dress, or anything like that. Then you get places like Bali, which are essentially secular/Buddhist, and there's next-to-no Muslim influence at all.

[Lewis]

The Acehnese are mental.

[John]

Been walking the dog a bit too much?

[Bartholomert]

I went out tonight with a friend of mine (blue eyed, French educated, Duke fraternity 'bro') in Paris, he is a White Turk of the 'old guard', his father was offered a position in the AKP government, he was telling me this wasn't necessarily orchestrated by the government, but that they were completely aware of its existence, had their 'spys' encourage and play on the nationalist / Kemalist sympathies of that remaining group in the army, and it was a card played by Erdogan to distract from current economic shortcomings / failures of the current government. He said this was very well known in certain circles, and while there was temporary misunderestimation of the depth the rebellion had spread, it was largely always under control.

I also have a very close friend whose father is in the higher echelons of the Gulen hierarchy, and he is adament that their group had nothing to do with it.

Take from that anectodal 'evidence' what you will.

[Bartholomert]

In case you don't know what a White Turk is:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Turks_and_Black_Turks

I'm a weird half breed because of my mother...but that's a far more complex dynamic to explain...

[ItalAussie]

Erdogan seems like one of the scarier world leaders. I honestly don't know much about what goes down in Turkey, but he seems like he's turned the country upside down.

[Magic]

Maybe he has from our perspective, but look at the support he's got from the people.

[Bartholomert]

Maybe he has from our perspective, but look at the support he's got from the people.

Erdogan was the best Prime Minister / leader Turkey has had in its history aside from Ataturk up until maybe 5-6 years ago. My family voted for him; however, in the last few years for whatever reason he lost touch with reality and has started to dismantle the core democratic institutions / secularism in the country (as the Kemalists had been predicting for years). Regardless for many, they either are not sophisticated enough to understand the significance of this shift (and see only the remarkable and genuine improvement in quality of life), are simply not exposed to the counter narrative that is available to us in the West (or think it's a Kemalist conspiracy / propaganda from the Westernized cosmopolitan Islamaphobic opposition) , or just don't care. AKP as a party are far and away the most competent, least corrupt and most sympathetic / relatable to the masses on a local level, the public improvements they've made in Istanbul in particular are maybe unparalleled in scope, speed and cost efficiency in human history (seriously; they built an entire metro system in like 10 years).

If Erdogan could have been a little more chill none of this would have happened. He was beloved by the Turkish people, he didn't need to undermine the Constitution and crack down on dissidents. But once things began to stagnate just a little bit he did and here we are. At this stage many of the core moderate well educated competent capitalists (kind of like reasonable Kasich type Republicans) that originally made up the party have been replaced by less educated more religious and less competent sycophants (which probably explains why the Party / country has been less successful / prosperous more recently).

[Shindig]

Seems to me that the violence spilling over from Syria's made him switch tact.

[Bartholomert]

Here is based Erdogan cucking Westerners in 2009, people in Turkey love this shit because it plays into the collective inferiority complex of the country:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oHywy_ScjrI

[GS]

This is seriously interesting, Mert. How do you see it playing out from here? Do you get to a point where they're gerrymandering or outright fiddling elections if he loses support, will he establish a dictatorship in all but name or will he be chucked out soon?

[Lewis]

I reckon there will be another coup before long, and that they won't piss about.

[GS]

I can't see it myself. They've arrested thousands of soldiers, and it would appear not to have broad public support.

[Magic]

I reckon there will be another coup before long, and that they won't piss about.

No chance.

[Bartholomert]

This is seriously interesting, Mert. How do you see it playing out from here? Do you get to a point where they're gerrymandering or outright fiddling elections if he loses support, will he establish a dictatorship in all but name or will he be chucked out soon?

IMO it's done for 10-15 years at least or until Erdogan dies. He's going to purge all the remaining substantive institutional opposition and rule as an effective dictator outside the boundaries of rule of law and I don't see any way to stop him now or in the near future. Maybe after his death AKP will splinter into a more moderate and more overtly Islamist faction but otherwise there's nobody left, that's why there's such a sense of dispair...

[Bartholomert]

Seems to me that the violence spilling over from Syria's made him switch tact.

That's definetly part of more recent escalations (there is a lot of controversy about Syrian refugees and Erdogan giving them citizenship- same arguments really that you find in Europe except Turkey took 2 million and people aren't bothered with political correctness) but Erdogan's increasingly unmasked tyrranical overreach preceedes the Syrian conflict (see Gezi Park for the first mass protests; see also 2010 Ergenekon Coup attempt for the same reasons). Somewhat ironic self-fulfilling prophecy by his detractors...

In Erdogan's 'defense' to a large extent the justifications hes given to rooting out dissidents via government overreach / dismantling of certain institutions are legitimate; there have been serious conspiracies to remove him illegally and forcibly from power.

Fun fact: Erdogan is a former professional soccer player; to the average Türk he is an alpha strong man and their representative in every sense. The people love this shit:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/10994010/Turkeys-PM-scores-hat-trick-in-exhibition-football-match.html

[GS]

How was the deal with the EU on refugees received in Turkey? I assume there's not a huge desire to join the EU if his moves towards a more Islamic-type society are favoured. Is there an expectation that their foreign policy henceforward would seek to align them / build alliances with the more 'hardline' regimes in the Middle East and Russia? I've read that he's quite anti-Israel, and has been for several years.

Do you reckon there would be much, if any, impact on the relationship with NATO if he continues down this road? The last thing they'd want would be a country which is actively belligerent in a volatile region activating Article 5.

These are genuine questions by the way - it's great to get some proper insight into some of this.

[Lee]

Erdogan doesn't give a fuck about the EU, does he? I thought he was more concerned with being the pre-eminent power in the Middle East.

[GS]

Well, exactly. I would have assumed that the more western looking populace would have looked towards Europe, but Erdogan is probably looking towards the Middle East and being a key regional player there. They're not going to get to do both after all.

[Magic]

Imagine looking to be a power in that shithole. :harold:

[Vim]

https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13781829_1244943782206570_5922565355157931630_n.jp g?oh=9a5aaa20262bdc1f79abc2229d35ede9&oe=57EF6B4E

[GS]

Imagine looking to be a power in that shithole. :harold:

There's much to be said for it, given the key regional players should be able to act as some sort of powerbroker once Syria eventually reaches the end game. He also wants to keep the Kurds down to stop them agitating on his flanks domestically, and he's in a much stronger place to do that. It's presumably one of the reasons he's moving away from a secular Turkey, since that would inevitably lead towards a more European focus from the populace and the government.

You half-suspect he'd quite like to reestablish some semblance of the Ottoman Empire, mind you.

[Bartholomert]

It's really really bad right now:

http://hotair.com/archives/2016/07/18/the-beginning-of-the-purge-in-turkey-didnt-take-long-at-all/

[Lewis]

Coups are an all-or-nothing game because of this sort of thing, which is why they shouldn't have BOTTLED IT.

[GS]

As I said, we'll all regret this coup didn't succeed.

[Disco]

That's a pretty chilling photo, it passes the 'if it was black and white could it be Belsen' test quite easily. This all seems to have happened rather quickly too which suggests either that he knew it was coming or (more likely) he's just taking the opportunity to have a good old purge. Uncle Joe would be proud.

[elth]

Erdogan's not the type to let a good crisis go to waste. The speed with which he knobbled those judges probably indicates they were on a list of purge victims well before the coup went down.

Apparently the special forces sent to his hotel missed him by 20 minutes.

[Magic]

Hearing the govt has suspended basically all teaching staff or something?

[elth]

Hundreds of staff being fired from each ministry, thousands arrested, thousands of police fired. Literally anyone who doesn't completely support him is gone.

Pretty horrific stuff. See you in 100 years, modern Turkey :lewis:

[Bartholomert]

If he manages to bring back the death penalty it's actually over. I don't think we will ever go back at that point.

[GS]

It's a grim state of affairs, really. It's shit to see.

[Lee]

Could we take Turkey in a war? We've not had a war for a bit.

[Raoul Duke]

Could we take Turkey in a war? We've not had a war for a bit.

I'm sure Great Britain and our allies in the European Uni...oh

Err....lads?

[GS]

Could we take Turkey in a war? We've not had a war for a bit.

It depends. We could revive Churchill's Dardanelles campaign, just for a laugh.

[Magic]

Turkey have loads more than us personnel and equipment wise except when it comes to their Navy. Plus our defence spending massively eclipses theirs so you'd reckon they're a bunch of poorly trained clowns with shit equipment.

[GS]

If you were really interested, you'd finance the Kurds through back channels to agitate on the borders. Assuming you had Russian acquiescence, you could sweep up the Dardanelles, destroy the two bridges over the Bosphorus, push through to the Black Sea to blockade all of their ports and send the RAF in from Cyprus to take out their airports and other key infrastructure.

You'd never win a ground war on your own, but you could piss them off rightly and it's not like they could effectively strike back. You'd need the Kurds to get involved in the ground war on your side, and then hope that some of the non-Islamist Turks RISE UP. The problem, of course, is that a lot of wars / rebellions rely on the little people RISING AGAINST THE OPPRESSOR. Then when it does kick off - and the instigators are looking hopefully for the masses trooping happily into battle - everyone's surprised that they've decided to watch it all on CNN instead of getting stuck in.

NATO might want to have a word with us, though.

[Lewis]

Or we could do them in ten minutes with Trident.

[Shindig]

I really just hope this is a wanky show of force that doesn't result in half a million going to prison or being offed.

[GS]

Or we could do them in ten minutes with Trident.

Istanbul has historical interest, we shouldn't attack it. Ankara seems like a shit hole though.

[Magic]

I think the further East you go the browner it gets. Should probably start there.

[Spikey M]

Or we could do them in ten minutes with Trident.

We should really use the old ones before we splash out on a load of new ones. I'd rather do Saudi Arabia though. Bunch of cunts.

[GS]

Joking aside, we have no idea how bad it could get if the House of Saud collapses. The contagion might be so vast as to warrant throwing a wall around the entire Middle East.

[Magic]

It might let them drum up some sort of easily annihilated caliphate. Hopefully it happens and they declare war and we can cleanse the world of Islam.

[Spikey M]

Atleast Trump would make them pay for the wall.

[John]

There's a whiff of Saddam consolidating power here.

[GS]

I read an interesting thing the other day (I can't remember if it was here or elsewhere) which suggested that Saddam might have been the way he was because of the challenge of holding Iraq together, as opposed to Iraq being the way it was because of Saddam.

Turkey could, and has, functioned as a secular state before. This is a naked power grab, with the failed coup as pretext. You'd hope NATO grow some bollocks and put them out - there's no way we should be responsible for the 'collective defence' of that shit hole.

[Spikey M]

It does smell a bit like when Saddam took power and had half his party assassinate the other half just to prove they were loyal/to get them in too deep. Is there a name for that event? I feel like there is.