Something is going down in Turkey

[Shindig]

Joking aside, we have no idea how bad it could get if the House of Saud collapses. The contagion might be so vast as to warrant throwing a wall around the entire Middle East.

Dear Israel,

Sorry.

[GS]

Dear Israel,

Sorry.

That's a grim one too. The countries surrounding Israel would be quite happy to leave the Palestinians to starve if it gives them a drum to beat domestically when they need it.

[Shindig]

I reckon we and the US could offer some extradition business but something tells me those stubborn sods would stay put and burn with it. Admirable, but that attitude hasn't helped.

[GS]

I've literally no idea what you're on about. :|

[Shindig]

I'm just thinking about a hypothetical mass exodus from Israel. 8 million? Aye, spread that about.

[GS]

Everyone needs to accept that Israel isn't going anywhere, isn't going to allow the right of return and isn't going to give up Jerusalem.

Once everybody accepts that, you might get somewhere on the two state solution.

[Spikey M]

Whilst 2 groups of people think God made them the owners of the same patch of land we are not going to be seeing a long term two state solution.

[John]

I read an interesting thing the other day (I can't remember if it was here or elsewhere) which suggested that Saddam might have been the way he was because of the challenge of holding Iraq together, as opposed to Iraq being the way it was because of Saddam.

Turkey could, and has, functioned as a secular state before. This is a naked power grab, with the failed coup as pretext. You'd hope NATO grow some bollocks and put them out - there's no way we should be responsible for the 'collective defence' of that shit hole.

The challenge might have driven him properly mental, but the way he took full power shows a flair for tyranny that a right minded person just isn't getting close to and he'd only been in charge for a couple of years at that point.

[GS]

Whilst 2 groups of people think God made them the owners of the same patch of land we are not going to be seeing a long term two state solution.

Perhaps, but the Israelis are probably quite indifferent to it all. They just send the troops and warplanes in once every few years to reassert themselves, and get on with building the wall.


The challenge might have driven him properly mental, but the way he took full power shows a flair for tyranny that a right minded person just isn't getting close to and he'd only been in charge for a couple of years at that point.

This is true, but then Tunisia is the only country which has come out of the Arab Spring without falling into chaos so that tells you everything you need to know.

[elth]

Tbh if Erdogan's going to give up supporting ISIS the "West" probably doesn't give two tosses how many academics he beheads, we support far worse in the name of the war on terror. Hi, Saudi Arabia.

The only thing that scares Israel is Hezbollah, the rest of the Arab/Turkic/Persian world can kill each other for eternity for all they care.

[Bartholomert]

I read an interesting thing the other day (I can't remember if it was here or elsewhere) which suggested that Saddam might have been the way he was because of the challenge of holding Iraq together, as opposed to Iraq being the way it was because of Saddam.

Turkey could, and has, functioned as a secular state before. This is a naked power grab, with the failed coup as pretext. You'd hope NATO grow some bollocks and put them out - there's no way we should be responsible for the 'collective defence' of that shit hole.

I don't think the Middle East in its current state can sustainably harbor democracies, the best case scenario is a Westernized secular oligarchy / elite. I don't know if it's because of Islam, something inherent in the people, education, poverty, some combination thereof or another reason, regardless I think the West need to accept this as the Truth. I don't think average and below-average IQ people can ever be moderate Muslims and participate in a democracy, the ideology is too absolutist in its current conventional form.

Also the UK could never successfully invade Turkey. Putting aside military 'hardware', the British people just don't have the resolve; feminism and liberalism has totally neutered the population. In comparison in Turkey, there is mandatory military service and deep mythology that to die for your country is the highest honor imaginable leading to immediate entrance into Paradise, meanwhile British males are busy getting full body waxes and watching Geordie Shore.

[Bartholomert]

https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13776016_1050796165012447_5132089446826812191_n.jp g?oh=f65b19b9862f9d0bbfd150c58a06b779&oe=581C6D72

:worried:

[Magic]

I don't think the Middle East in its current state can sustainably harbor democracies, the best case scenario is a Westernized secular oligarchy / elite. I don't know if it's because of Islam, something inherent in the people, education, poverty, some combination thereof or another reason, regardless I think the West need to accept this as the Truth. I don't think average and below-average IQ people can ever be moderate Muslims and participate in a democracy, the ideology is too absolutist in its current conventional form.

Also the UK could never successfully invade Turkey. Putting aside military 'hardware', the British people just don't have the resolve; feminism and liberalism has totally neutered the population. In comparison in Turkey, there is mandatory military service and deep mythology that to die for your country is the highest honor imaginable leading to immediate entrance into Paradise, meanwhile British males are busy getting full body waxes and watching Geordie Shore.

Yes but they are fucking shit.

The problem is Islam, everyone else is an infidel and they are the chosen people, they are as bad as the Zionists and it's drilled in to them from such a young age.

[Disco]

Does Islam have an equivalent to the CofE? I feel like it needs one, a place where coffee mornings and some light baking are about as exciting as it gets and nobody mentions god unless they really have to.

[Lewis]

The logic of blaming Islam always strikes me as a bit shonky, because it only seems to work one way. It's very easy to say that people do all these things because of the Islam, and you can't touch us mate we're allowed to say it because Islam isn't a race mate; but then why are these places still so beholden to religion? People seem reluctant to entertain the more straight-forward notion that Saudi Arabia would be a primitive toilet regardless on account of the fact that it is a fundamentally medieval society. They have no history of agricultural, industrial, or scientific development, and so for all the air conditioning and Rolls Royces that a century of Western involvement has given them, every other aspect of the national life is stuck where it was a thousand years ago. Why wouldn't they all be religious maniacs?

[Magic]

Everything is to do with Allah. Everything. From a drought, to a good season, to a fucking crane destroying Mecca. Allah, Allah, Allah. These cunts know nothing else. Islam isn't a consequence of something else.

[Pepe]

I'll side with the expertise of Magic on this one.

[Bartholomert]

The logic of blaming Islam always strikes me as a bit shonky, because it only seems to work one way. It's very easy to say that people do all these things because of the Islam, and you can't touch us mate we're allowed to say it because Islam isn't a race mate; but then why are these places still so beholden to religion? People seem reluctant to entertain the more straight-forward notion that Saudi Arabia would be a primitive toilet regardless on account of the fact that it is a fundamentally medieval society. They have no history of agricultural, industrial, or scientific development, and so for all the air conditioning and Rolls Royces that a century of Western involvement has given them, every other aspect of the national life is stuck where it was a thousand years ago. Why wouldn't they all be religious maniacs?

I saw how it transformed the country in front of my eyes. It's hard to quantify, but I can point to innumerable anecdotal examples of how the increasing influence of Islam led to objectively worse outcomes, almost always at odds with Western (classically) liberal values. Both within my family and in the larger society. A woman has objectively far far less respect, opportunity and security today in Turkey than at any time when my mother was growing up in the 70s and 80s. I can point to, similarly anecdotal, parallels between Christians from the Middle East and Muslims from the Middle East and their relative ability to integrate and adopt Western cultural values in the US / at Duke.

I remember interacting with girls, at Duke, who were involved with MSA who would refuse to shake my hand, who rejected the existence of homosexuality or thought it should be criminalized, who advocated for genocide against Israelis, who thought Men had a right to four wives, etc. The vast majority never went out, never drank, never integrated within the mainstream campus social scene, they all hated the West, they thought its people were degenerates, that God would punish all of them, etc. They are almost all unfathomably bitter and guilty about their true desires and the wider (partially self-imposed) rejection they feel from society. They only exist to suck up the resources provided by the West, while working consciously or unconsciously to undermine the entire social fabric that provides the precious privileges they take for granted. I could tell you many many stories about individuals you would not believe gained acceptance to one of the most elite academic institutions in the United States...

This is coming from someone who was at one point an executive board member; the above were some of the reason why I started to distance myself from the group by Junior year...the developments involving Erdogan are just the final straw.

[Magic]

I've read about it, mate. It's a different way of life we will never understand. Nothing else matters but the will of God. There is no enlightenment to be had.

[Bartholomert]

Although I don't think it's something inherent in Islam, the Talmud is just as bad if not worse in some respects, but in the currently prevailing interpretation among its adherents...

[Magic]

Although I don't think it's something inherent in Islam, the Talmud is just as bad if not worse in some respects, but in the currently prevailing interpretation among its adherents...

I agree. What is it with this chosen people shit. Fucking lunatics. Weren't Jews always inherently clever though for some reason? Positive stereotyping there.

[Lewis]

I saw how it transformed the country in front of my eyes. It's hard to quantify, but I can point to innumerable anecdotal examples of how the increasing influence of Islam led to objectively worse outcomes, almost always at odds with Western (classically) liberal values. Both within my family and in the larger society. A woman has objectively far far less respect, opportunity and security today in Turkey than at any time when my mother was growing up in the 70s and 80s. I can point to, similarly anecdotal, parallels between Christians from the Middle East and Muslims from the Middle East and their relative ability to integrate and adopt Western cultural values in the US / at Duke.

I remember interacting with girls, at Duke, who were involved with MSA who would refuse to shake my hand, who rejected the existence of homosexuality or thought it should be criminalized, who advocated for genocide against Israelis, who thought Men had a right to four wives, etc. The vast majority never went out, never drank, never integrated within the mainstream campus social scene, they all hated the West, they thought its people were degenerates, that God would punish all of them, etc. They are almost all unfathomably bitter and guilty about their true desires and the wider (partially self-imposed) rejection they feel from society. They only exist to suck up the resources provided by the West, while working consciously or unconsciously to undermine the entire social fabric that provides the precious privileges they take for granted. I could tell you many many stories about individuals you would not believe gained acceptance to one of the most elite academic institutions in the United States...

This is coming form someone who was at one point an executive board member; the above were some of the reason why I started to distance myself from the group by Junior year...the developments involving Erdogan are just the final straw.

Think where Turkey was in 1900. It was part of a decrepit, absolutist empire that had barely bothered to outlaw slavery, and it had been economically and culturally frozen for about three centuries. It was by no means a Western nation. The moves towards Westernisation, whether it was the Young Turks, Ataturk, the military... It is artificial, and therefore superficial, and has historically been driven by what a lot of Turks (if not most Turks) would describe as a 'liberal elite'. Consequently, like seemingly everywhere else in the world at the moment, the superficial nature of this elite project has been exposed as that elite have seen their institutional and electoral power challenged. The best comparison is Russia, which was similarly shite before their own 'liberal elite' sought to transform society (albeit in a rather more murderous manner), and which has regressed back to authoritarianism and Orthodox piety in the wake of that lot being swept out and replaced by somebody who unashamedly mobilises support of the more 'traditional' voter. It's the same story with the likes of Iran and Afghanistan, except the contrast is greater because the transformation was attempted in a shorter timeframe and with even less economic development to validate said transformation.

As for the dickheads in the West, communism used to be the main magnet for losers and disaffected smug cunts in wealthy societies, because they could look to the Soviet Union, delude themselves into thinking that they could thrive under their system, and subsequently come to believe that communism had all the answers. It's the same with Islamism these days, except Islamism is worse because 1) there is a larger pool of losers to draw upon; and 2) it was easier to beat communism than wait four-hundred years for the Middle East to undergo the same economic and cultural transformation[s] that Western nations had to experience before chucking their religion-based backwardness.

[Magic]

So there approx 1.7 billion losers in the world. You're looking at extremist Islam at a very high level.

[Boydy]

Think where Turkey was in 1900. It was part of a decrepit, absolutist empire that had barely bothered to outlaw slavery, and it had been economically and culturally frozen for about three centuries. It was by no means a Western nation. The moves towards Westernisation, whether it was the Young Turks, Ataturk, the military... It is artificial, and therefore superficial, and has historically been driven by what a lot of Turks (if not most Turks) would describe as a 'liberal elite'. Consequently, like seemingly everywhere else in the world at the moment, the superficial nature of this elite project has been exposed as that elite have seen their institutional and electoral power challenged. The best comparison is Russia, which was similarly shite before their own 'liberal elite' sought to transform society (albeit in a rather more murderous manner), and which has regressed back to authoritarianism and Orthodox piety in the wake of that lot being swept out and replaced by somebody who unashamedly mobilises support of the more 'traditional' voter. It's the same story with the likes of Iran and Afghanistan, except the contrast is greater because the transformation was attempted in a shorter timeframe and with even less economic development to validate said transformation.

As for the dickheads in the West, communism used to be the main magnet for losers and disaffected smug cunts in wealthy societies, because they could look to the Soviet Union, delude themselves into thinking that they could thrive under their system, and subsequently come to believe that communism had all the answers. It's the same with Islamism these days, except Islamism is worse because 1) there is a larger pool of losers to draw upon; and 2) it was easier to beat communism than wait four-hundred years for the Middle East to undergo the same economic and cultural transformation[s] that Western nations had to experience before chucking their religion-based backwardness.

So the answer is bring back communism. :nodd:

Also, the Iranians elected Mossadegh. Let's not forget who went and fucked that up.

[Lewis]

They didn't. He was a elected by the parliament (the make-up of which was determined by elections in which only prominent men could vote), and appointed by the same Shah who the Muslamics later punted out of office. The aggro between those two was more Blair vs Brown than East vs West.

[Boydy]

Huh, I assumed they had since I'd only ever read about him being 'democratically elected'.

Britain and the US still made a fucking hash of it.

[Raoul Duke]

I thought this was pretty good: http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2016/07/19/4503354.htm - on 'Islamic exceptionalism'

Communism also didn't have a magic book telling you it was ok to fly planes into buildings or whatever

[Lewis]

They had several, depending on where you were or who you preferred.

[mugbull]

At the end of the day Islam isn't a religion, it's a method of organizing society. Even the most progressive Muslims agree that this is what Islam is; it's inextricably tied to everything and everybody because the ummah is so much more a unifying concept than any corollary in other religions. Judaism is similar - orthodox Judaism, anyway - but it hasn't developed the same way as Islam because Jews have always been a very significant minority and thus could never mould society to conform to Jewish precepts. Islam could.

[mugbull]

I was also thinking - when was the last time a somewhat prominent world leader was assassinated? I can't think of a recent one off the top of my head. Seems to have gone out of fashion. Maybe we're due for another one of those as well, the Turks have ahistory of it

[elth]

Serbia's PM was killed in 2003 and Congo's President was assassinated in 2001. Can't think of anything more recent than that, unless you count Gaddafi.

[mugbull]

Pim Fortuyn was probably the last one in a 'Western' country, and he was a fringe candidate anyway.

[phonics]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvXtPk8gjYE

This Turkish reporter has uncovered codes from the coup plotters.

"There are some interesting notes found in the garbage which are thrown by Gulenists. The writings in this notebook look like codes for the coup. There are some codes like: health and weapon, health and armor, weather, heli, motorcycle etc. which are things that can be used in a coup."

Turns out they're cheats for GTA IV :D

[ItalAussie]

I was also thinking - when was the last time a somewhat prominent world leader was assassinated? I can't think of a recent one off the top of my head. Seems to have gone out of fashion. Maybe we're due for another one of those as well, the Turks have ahistory of it

Does Benazir Bhutto count? That was 2007.

[phonics]

She wasn't leader at the time was she? Speaking of attempted assassinations, I saw the Raegan guy gets out next week. Imagine if you shot at a President today, you'd be doing life 10 times over.

[Magic]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38369962

[Magic]

He's died from his wounds. Uh oh.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

https://twitter.com/KyleWOrton/status/810897986855182336

The guy looks like he could be some sort of security at a glance.

[Magic]

This is an incredible picture:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0DeFAZVEAEI0FL.jpg

Pulitzer Prize shit right there.

[Magic]

Holy shit he was a cop.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

Twitter's saying it's a Turkish police officer called Mevlüt Mert Altıntaş.

[Byron]

Mert you say?

[Disco]

Mert wishes he was that trim.

[Spoonsky]

Will this strengthen the Russia-Turkey axis of evil or weaken it?

[Lewis]

I hope the anti-Russia people consider what they have unleashed, just as Nigel Farage had to reflect on the political murders he caused.

[Boydy]

Looks more like Taz than Mert.

[Magic]

Looks more like Henry than Taz.

[Spikey M]

No human has fingers that long

[Jimmy Floyd]

Nothing will happen. It doesn't suit either Vlad or Erdo to fall out with each other, because both head up countries that are fundamentally useless.

[Baz]

I'm surprised there isn't better footage.

[Shindig]

I'm surprised they shot him dead. And that the security was so non-plussed.

[Disco]

I'm surprised they shot him dead. And that the security was so non-plussed.

It seems to have been his police guard who shot him.

[Shindig]

Aye but a gallery would have security of it's own, surely?

[Yevrah]

Why the fuck are pictures of this monstrous tool all over the news?

For fuck's sake.

[Giggles]

Why the fuck are pictures of this monstrous tool all over the news?

For fuck's sake.

Pictures of who?

[Dquincy]

The tool!!!!!

[Baz]

The dead assassin, I assume.

[Boydy]

810918127139745793

:d

[Yevrah]

Pictures of who?

The assassin.

He wanted to get his message out there through killing someone and the media are fucking facilitating that.

[Magic]

810918127139745793

:d

:D

[Shindig]

The media always do that. It's an especially shit thing as it makes the shooter then story rather than the event.

[Yevrah]

The media always do that. It's an especially shit thing as it makes the shooter then story rather than the event.

Yep. This time seems particularly bad though given the footage.

[mugbull]

They'll try to pass it off as a defining photograph even though the event won't have any lasting significance. Epic picture though