Is Britain Anti-Semitic?

[Lee]

I was listening to Radio 5 in the car earlier and some American bird was going on about how there is an anti-Semitic culture in the UK, particularly on the left.

It's certainly true that the left, and Labour in particular, are at best lukewarm in their attitude towards Israel. But surely this isn't the same as being anti-Semitic?

I'm pretty anti-Israel. I don't like the idea that any state should exist for the sake of a particular race or religion and I've found Israel's defence policy appalling ever since I developed a political conscience. But that's a political view and is obviously debatable. I don't want Israel to be eliminated or anything. It's there now, what would be the point? The way this woman was speaking she'd think I was an anti-Semite for not being pro-Israel, which seems a bit unfair. I don't hate, or even dislike Jews. I can't say I spend an awful lot of time thinking about Jews.

You could probably call me anti-Zionist (although that would probably be pushing it - I don't really care that much) but to effectively brand those who think Israel is shit as racist seems a little bit off to me. I've come across plenty of people with similar views to mine and they're held at least a large minority of people, I imagine. But society is hardly rife with Jew jokes and abuse as far as I can see.

Was this woman talking bollocks and conflating a dislike of Israel (which I assume is far less common in the US) with Jew-hating? Or does she have a point and we're all horrible fuckers?

[Magic]

They rule the world now.

[Giggles]

Britain is anti-everyone.

[Raoul Duke]

The only real experience/knowledge of Jewish people I have are the geezers with excellent hats in Golders Green and the various top-quality bakeries around there.

I give about as much of a fuck about Israel as I do Ecuador to be honest, and I wouldn't say it features in the thoughts of most people day-to-day.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

I'd hope it was fairly obvious to people that being critical of Israel isn't anti-Semitic.

[niko_cee]

You sir, are worse than Hitler!

[mugbull]

The Israel lobby is insane in the US, which explains our staggeringly short-sighted foreign policy towards them. Sort of like how the Cuban lobby used to be, except way more significant. Most Americans think that way too.

I think it's more of an American thing than anything. When the UN assembly proposed the resolution for Palestinian statehood last year, the only countries that rejected it were Israel, the US and it allies (Canada/Panama), some Pacific islands, and the Czech Republic (:happycry:)

[Lewis]

There was always a half-arsed 'Jews and their money' style of weak anti-semitism in Britain, and probably still is to some extent (albeit not necessarily with any intent to be offensive); but we've probably been the least anti-semitic country in the world over the past few hundred years (since we let them back in), so that woman is a twat.

The Muslims... Well, all bets are off with them I think.

[Lee]

The only real experience/knowledge of Jewish people I have are the geezers with excellent hats in Golders Green and the various top-quality bakeries around there.

I give about as much of a fuck about Israel as I do Ecuador to be honest, and I wouldn't say it features in the thoughts of most people day-to-day.

Yeah I should say I don't go about thinking of Israel. Just when stuff is kicking off on the news I'll think they're being twats. I haven't got a 'Free Palestine' mug or anything. This woman on the radio was implying that criticism of Israel was an extension of hating Jewish people. I assume that criticism of Israel is less acceptable in the US and so she had a bit of a culture shock when she came over here to study. She was Jewish herself, by the way. So she's probably sensitive to it anyway.

[Sir Andy Mahowry]

The only real experience/knowledge of Jewish people I have are the geezers with excellent hats in Golders Green and the various top-quality bakeries around there.

I give about as much of a fuck about Israel as I do Ecuador to be honest, and I wouldn't say it features in the thoughts of most people day-to-day.
Carmelli Bakery :drool:

The little chocolate pastries they do are fucking stunning.

[mugbull]

Although, the status of Israel and its neighbors is definitely very important, so you're a twat by trying to equate it to Ecuador.

[Raoul Duke]

Why? It has little relevance to me.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Jews are top notch. Don't think any set of people has suffered as many massacres as them over the centuries and lived to tell the tale.

The top boy Israelis are mostly wankers though. Not you, Moshe Dayan.

[Lewis]

I was struggling to see the OUTRAGE with the original Naz Shah stuff that kicked the week off (since hijacked by Ken Livingstone). Disagree with it and call her a thicko by all means, but the idea that you can't suggest moving Israel, and that you can't use words like 'transportation' in relation to Jews, because the Jews were transported and... What do people think the fledgling Israeli state did to people it didn't want in their newly-independent territories if not transport them the fuck out of there (if not just kill them)? Similarly, the fact that 'praising' (for lack of a better word) the likes of Hamas in the context of supporting the notion of Palestinian resistance is somehow deviant strikes me as a sinister attempt to control the narrative, seeing as when Britain was running the gaff as 'oppressors' Jewish paramilitaries used to kill our soldiers and blow hotels up with car bombs.

[Shindig]

They make one part of Gateshead habitable.

[Lee]

I was struggling to see the OUTRAGE with the original Naz Shah stuff that kicked the week off (since hijacked by Ken Livingstone). Disagree with it and call her a thicko by all means, but the idea that you can't suggest moving Israel, and that you can't use words like 'transportation' in relation to Jews, because the Jews were transported and... What do people think the fledgling Israeli state did to people it didn't want in their newly-independent territories if not transport them the fuck out of there (if not just kill them)? Similarly, the fact that 'praising' (for lack of a better word) the likes of Hamas in the context of supporting the notion of Palestinian resistance is somehow deviant strikes me as a sinister attempt to control the narrative, seeing as when Britain was running the gaff as 'oppressors' Jewish paramilitaries used to kill our soldiers and blow hotels up with car bombs.

The Livingstone stuff seems overblown to me as well. He might well hate jews (he has a bit of history, doesn't he?) but all he did on the radio was come across as a bit thick. He is a bit thick so its shouldn't really have come as a surprise. They've only suspended him so they can say they've suspended him and they take anti-semitism very seriously.

[GS]

I think one of the major issues here is that many people who get particularly 'heated' about the issue make no serious attempt to understand the historical context.

The Holocaust is, far and away, the most traumatic event in Judaism since the destruction of the temple in AD70. Jewish literature of the first century BC and the first and second centuries AD can be quite clearly split between the pre and post temple period, the event itself being considered so cataclysmic for Judaism as to signal the coming of the end times. The experience of the Jews in the intervening centuries makes pretty grim reading, given they were routinely persecuted in pretty much every country in which there were substantial numbers (the evictions from England and Spain being two of the more prominent examples).

The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth is one of the few genuine examples where they were actually integrated into society, Napoleon too, but one compares that to the Jewish ghetto in Rome, maintained by the fucking papacy no less, until the temporal power of the papacy itself was overthrown by Italian unification and it ceased to exist. The Jewish ghetto existed until 1870, and then the Nazis brought them back within 70 years. Nicholas II turned a blind eye to pogroms against Jews in his territories at the beginning of the last century. These are not events consigned to 'ancient' history and the Assyrian or Babylonian conquests of the Old Testament period.

You have to consider the major historical agents at play here. There's always been an unfortunate current of anti-semitism, although a contributory non-religious factor likely arises because Judaism doesn't outlaw usury and the Christians didn't like being chased for money they owed. I know you're going back a bit, but even in major literature (Shylock, who is a vengeful villain until he converts to Christianity, Marlowe's 'the Jew of Malta', Dickens constantly referring to Fagin as "the Jew"), it was common for a character's Jewishness to be synonymous with his villainy. You have myths of the 'Wandering Jew', condemned to walk the earth because he mocked Christ on the cross, the centuries-long blaming of all Jews for the crucifixion by the church and the Roman Catholic church praying for the conversion of the Jews. Benedict XVI brought in amended language a few years ago, but it still calls for their conversion.

So whatever your views on Israel and Israeli government policy, they have to be thought about and the views articulated in the context of long-standing anti-semitic thought and action across centuries. Jews probably felt fairly safe in the Kaiserreich and the Weimar Republic at the time, and two generations later they had been virtually wiped out from the European mainland. That was Germany, the most enlightened state in mainland Europe, not some shit hole in the Balkans. Israel is always going to be the one place where it is okay to be Jewish. You only have to look at pictures or TV coverage of the IDF after they storm East Jerusalem in 1967 and capture the Temple Mount to see what it meant to them to 'reclaim' it - it was the first time they'd held sovereignty over the Western Wall since the sack of Jerusalem in AD70. The Mosaic Law and the Temple were the two great 'unifying' factors of Judaism historically, so it was a hugely significant moment.

Also, since Israeli independence was declared in 1948, they've been attacked thrice by their neighbours - 1948, 1967 and 1973. They're eight million surrounded by tens of millions, the vast majority of whom don't want them there and where elected heads of state have openly called for them to be wiped off the map (alright, Iran).

I suspect much of the anti-semitism on the left stems from a dislike of Israeli policy which is then equated, deliberately or otherwise, with its status as a Jewish state. They're looking to throw insults about, so they refer to 'the Jews' or 'Zionists' instead and they've become synonymous terms. I'm far from a scholar, and I'm sure there are plenty of other pertinent points that could be made on either side, but you simply cannot be wading into a debate like this without attempting to understand the historical events and contexts, and why some of the statements that are made are highly evocative or provocative. I don't agree with every Israeli policy decision, but there's a reason that every Israeli citizen is a reservist - it's because there would seem to be a genuine belief that if Israel falls, there could be another Holocaust and they're simply not prepared to let that happen. If that means bombing Gaza, occupying the Golan or building the wall - then that's a price they're prepared to pay.

You don't have to agree with it, but one could at least try and understand why they have the policies they do.

[Lewis]

Simon Teabag Montefiore's BBC4 programme about Jerusalem has been good. I had never heard of that ancient water tunnel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siloam_tunnel) before, but it's a ridiculous piece of engineering.

EDIT: Turns out it was made years ago, and they have just repeated it. Typical Jews.

[Spikey M]

Protestants > Jews > Catholics > Muslims > Boydy sat in his pants humming.

Beyond that I couldn't give a fuck.

[Boydy]

The middle east seems like such a hopeless shitstorm that I don't why the left continually insist on tearing themselves apart over it.

[Lewis]

It is a right waste of time. The Israelis aren't going anywhere, so suck it up and make peace. Ooh, it's Palestinian la... Yeah great, lads; but whilst they can keep this shit up forever, you daft cunts haven't even got a Pizza Hut.

[ItalAussie]

I wasn't afraid to be critical of elements of British culture of which I wasn't a fan. But I have to say that I never encountered anti-Semitism on any kind of scale that would suggest it was an endemic problem while I was in the UK.

[John Arne]

It's absolute bollocks - Lewis' post up there (#14) sums my feelings up.

If someone criticises Saudi Arabia they aren't branded anti-Islamic, if someone criticises China they aren't branded anti-Buddhist. Yet - criticise Israel and you are an anti-semite.

[Mr. Malik]

If you're critical of banking/the finance industry you leave yourself exposed to getting labelled as an anti-Semite, too. Which is some twisted logic, it's not the critic who makes the association between the stereotypical morally unscrupulous Goldman Sachs banker and Jews, it's those who consider any criticism of bankers as anti-Semitic who are reinforcing the stereotype.

[Shindig]

I've never met a shit Mormon.

[John Arne]

Wasn't that Mitt Romneys campaign slogan?

[Kikó]

We should all just be Buddhists.

[GS]

It is a right waste of time. The Israelis aren't going anywhere, so suck it up and make peace. Ooh, it's Palestinian la... Yeah great, lads; but whilst they can keep this shit up forever, you daft cunts haven't even got a Pizza Hut.

This is it. The left are too busy harking back to Israel's creation, as if that's a relevant fact in the modern day attempts to do something. There's also the problem that the surrounding Arab states are probably happy to see a continued impasse as it gives them something to rally about. The Israelis aren't going anywhere, they're not going to hand back Jerusalem and they're far better equipped than any of their rivals. The Palestinians need a sovereign state, but the realities of the situation need to be recognised by everyone. As you say, the Israelis would probably be quite happy to crack on with this for years.

[Lewis]

It's just another border dispute, and it's at the back of the queue (arf) behind Prussian restoration and working out who really owns Trieste.

[GS]

It's become predominantly a border dispute, but the initial invasions by surrounding Arab states were designed to 'wipe Israel off the map'. No-one sensible expects that any more. The other major stumbling block is 'right of return' of refugees. The problem is that the Israelis are simply not going to accept hundreds of thousands / millions of Palestinians coming back to live in what is now Israel. It's a Jewish state requiring a strong Jewish demographic majority, otherwise they could end up in a situation where there's a Jewish minority and they either a) have a Jewish minority rule, which would be a disaster (alright, South Africa and Rhodesia) or b) an Arab majority where the Knesset could literally vote itself out of existence.

The Israelis aren't going to let it happen, so it's going to require the surrounding Arab states to actually take refugees in permanently and not just leave them in temporary-now-permanent refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan.

[Lewis]

I think the two state solution is unworkable, so the Israelis should just hoover up what bits of Canaan they don't own and transport(!) everyone out of it. It wouldn't be very nice, but it would be stable and ultimately peaceful, like German-free Central and Eastern Europe.

[GS]

Assuming you're not being wholly facetious, the Palestinians in the territories would have absolutely nowhere to go if they did that. There are 1.5m in refugee camps as it is, and you'd be looking at 4.4m moving out of Gaza and the West Bank. Granted you could learn from the mistakes of Germany post-WWII or India/Pakistan from a logistical perspective (for fuck sake), but the surrounding region is just a basket case. Syria's falling to pieces, Lebanon is held together with constitutional sticky tape, the Saudis are too busy playing Russian roulette with oil and spreading Wahhabism, and Turkey won't be taking any more once Syria has emptied itself of civilians. Jordan is stable enough, but there's not a chance they're agreeing to it.

A two state solution is the only workable solution that exists, but you have to work out what to do about Gaza, given it's completely disconnected from the West Bank. A two state solution also has to recognise the starting point which is Israel isn't going to make concessions on the right of return or Jerusalem. Perpetuating the misery for the Palestinians on the basis of solutions / 'revenge' for historical wrongs which can't be achieved is a waste of everybody's time.

[GS]

This is a fairly damning assessment: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2016/apr/30/labour-antisemitism-ken-livingstone-george-galloway

[Henry]

I think one of the major issues here is that many people who get particularly 'heated' about the issue make no serious attempt to understand the historical context.

The Holocaust is, far and away, the most traumatic event in Judaism since the destruction of the temple in AD70.

The aftermath of the Bar Kokhba revolt was actually far more catastrophic for them.

[Spikey M]

Judging by the Twitter response to Spurs not winning the league - Britain is pretty Anti-semitic. Gas chamber refferences, 'dirty yids', etc. Not pretty.

[phonics]

Is 'Britain' anti-semitic? Nah.

Is there a new generation of people mad as fuck about Israels behavior towards Palestine then getting into arguments with the 'Israel can do no wrong' crowd and everyone involved ends up looking terrible? Yeah.

We still look like Moses compared to the rest of Europe here. You can't go a day without hearing somebody referencing themselves or someone else as a 'juif'. Got a bargain at the Co-Op? 'Quelle Juif' (What a Jew!) or if you won't pay for something, "Pour quoi pas? T'es Juif?" ('Why? You a Jew?') or sometimes you're just called it as an insult not even relating to money.

This is what you're competing against:
http://i.imgur.com/2adToCx.png

[Lewis]

The French love it. Even before the Muslims took over, they were second only to runaway leaders Russia in the European Jew-baiting table (ironically, Germany was probably bottom for a long time).

[Henry]

When you read 19th century literature, there is a hell of a lot of casual anti-Semitism - be it the Russian English or French stuff. Everyone was at it.

[Magic]

Like Islam, I really think the world could do without the Jewish faith and the shit that brings to the table.

[GS]

The aftermath of the Bar Kokhba revolt was actually far more catastrophic for them.

This isn't an unfair point. I'm not very up to speed on the second rebellion, but my limited understanding would suggest that it was catastrophic from a 'temporal' perspective. The destruction of the Temple was both a 'temporal' and 'spiritual' catastrophe, which continues to resonate in the modern day faith (see the reaction to the recapture of Temple Mount in 1967).

[elth]

My impression is that Britain as a whole is not especially anti-Semitic, but there is a vocal and rabid anti-Semitic rump in British culture, and one of the ways that rump has stayed alive is through covering itself in the solidarity movement of the leftier side of politics.