The UK Politics Thread [Wot did Jez do now...]

[Disco]

Unlike the massive army they already have aimed at Seoul, oh no wait a minute...

[Magic]

They're cowardly shitbags though.

[Disco]

So what's the problem then? They aren't suddenly going to invite complete immolation by nuking the South, like pretty much everything else this is purely for posturing.

[Henry]

Kim Jong Un would be an awesome Civilisation player.

[Lewis]

If they ever develop a missile capable of delivering their truck-sized warheads into the middle of Seoul, they would be lucky to take out a hundred-thousand people. That isn't really all that much in the grand scheme of things, seeing as South Korea would invade and annihilate them in response. The shitness of their technology basically deters them from using it, which must be a first.

[Lee]

I'm skeptical that they've managed a H-bomb, given that their previous devices were supposedly a bit crude.

On the reshuffle, I imagine Dave would also sack people who forcibly disagreed with him in public.

He would

[Magic]

So what's the problem then? They aren't suddenly going to invite complete immolation by nuking the South, like pretty much everything else this is purely for posturing.

Of course they're not, their leaders are well minded, reasonable people. It's not like they'd force their entire male population to emulate the leader's haircut or anyt...oh.

[Disco]

Of course they're not, their leaders are well minded, reasonable people. It's not like they'd force their entire male population to emulate the leader's haircut or anyt...oh.

No-one will dispute how crazy the regime is but it's a bit of leap from haircuts to thermonuclear war. A major offensive against Seoul would get them creamed out of existence whatever they did it with so having new weapons doesn't really make any difference.

Same with Iran, whatever else they are they aren't suicidal.

[Magic]

Fission, not fusion mate.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Even if you gave them the benefit of the doubt on all counts, and assumed they wouldn't get smashed in response, what would be the fucking point of nuking Seoul?

I guess it would cheer me up for a few hours, but that aside.

[Magic]

I don't know, but rest assured such devastating weaponry is not a good thing at all at the hands of such an unstable, erratic and ill-minded autocracy.

[Lewis]

You could see the logic of some sort of 'Doomsday Device' rigged to blow up North Korea (and possibly more) if anybody invaded; but for that to be a worthwhile deterrent you would need the sort of heavy-duty megaton weapons that they don't have a hope of developing or manufacturing in the numbers required without some serious outside help from either Russia or China.

[John Arne]

I think Kim is just bored.

[Yevrah]

What a gent.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35243133

[Yevrah]

Apparently this was the 'disloyalty' wot did for Pat McFadden:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CX_oxNzWMAAyBrb.jpg:large

Seumas Milne's utterly bizarre fingerprints all over it.

Was that it? Fucking hell.

There'll be about 10 people left in the Labour party eligible for the front bench by the time he's finished.

[Lee]

This is amazing to watch.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Long may it continue. The look on their faces when Labour gets whittled down to about 85 seats at the next election.

'But at least we stood up for our principles.'

[Jimmy Floyd]

Jeremy's approval among Labour voters is down to 45% (from 64% the week before Christmas).

Pat McFadden produced the quote above, sacked for disloyalty.

John McDonnell praised the IRA, gets made Shadow Chancellor.

As if Dave got grief for calling these morons 'terrorist sympathisers'. For those of us who have been lolling at Seumas Milne articles for years it's like that shite made flesh. Amazing really. And Ken Livingstone is now in charge of reviewing their position on Britain's NATO membership! Oh, my sides.

[Boydy]

This (http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2016/01/whats-the-point-of-labours-right.html) is very good on the Labour right.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I thought it embraced capitalism but looked to redistribute the spoils more equitably, a thought which basically won St Tony three elections. There's lots of ground being given by the Tories on that front too, but Tony's post premiership appallingness has basically undermined any good he may have done in office and meant anyone sensible in the party is now 'Blairite scum'.

Even the author there falls victim to meaningless words like 'empowerment' and 'openness'. They need to be talking less about that stuff and more about hospital car parks.

[Boydy]

I thought this bit was good on why there's such a lack of talent:


The problem isn’t that they are technocrats: it’s that they are bad technocrats. They use the word “electable” not as a way of describing how to be actually elected, but as the whine of over-entitled narcissists upset that Corbyintes have taken away their toys.

The problem, here, however, is an old one: Gordon Brown spent years plotting to be prime minister, only for us to discover that he didn’t know what to do when he got there. And given that so many Labour MPs’ path to the Cabinet consisted in impressing a mentor rather than in developing outside support or independent thought, it’s small wonder that they should have lost contact with those outside the Westminster Bubble, or even with the ability to think for themselves.

The three who opposed Corbyn in the leadership election didn't really seem to send out much of a message about embracing capitalism but redistributing the spoils more effectively. Miliband kind of did that (although his message was always a bit confused and a bit crap).

[Boydy]

Also, there's been fuck all coverage of the housing bill that the Tories are pushing through. It's a disgrace.

[Henry]

"Housing" is a bit boring, so I have trouble reading the articles about it. What are they doing?

[Boydy]

These few paragraphs of this article (http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jan/04/end-of-council-housing-bill-secure-tenancies-pay-to-stay) sum it up pretty well.


Among the bill’s scores of proposals are a few that cut straight to the heart of what council housing has traditionally been all about. For a start, the government wants to end the system of permanent council tenancies – which was cemented while Margaret Thatcher was in power – and replace it with arrangements that will be reviewed every two to five years, meaning that for new tenants, council housing will no longer represent anything secure or dependable, let alone be passed between generations.

There are also plans to introduce a policy for council tenants known as pay to stay, whereby households that collectively earn more than £30,000 a year (£40,000 in London) could be presented with a choice: either move out, or be charged rents “at market or near market levels” (or, weirdly enough, work less). At the same time – and this is where it all gets almost comically complicated – so as to subsidise housing associations that will now have to sell houses and flats under a newly extended right-to-buy scheme, councils are to be forced to sell their highest-value homes as soon as they become vacant.

No one is sure how any of this will work, and the government seems to making things up as it goes along: on Monday, for example, David Cameron announced that for every high-value council house sold in London, two supposedly “affordable” homes would be built – but there was no suggestion of any kind of like-for-like replacement. The essential story, then, seems pretty clear: a drastic attack on council housing, which will become not just less secure, but restricted to an ever smaller share of the population, just when Britain’s housing crisis has never been more acute.

[Lewis]

It's rare that any technocrat isn't a bad one. Somebody like Lord Kitchener could run the Sudan single-handedly by working sixteen hours days and repressing his gayness, but pretty much everybody else is doomed to failure, so that isn't it. They're just insubstantial people generally, and the intellectuals/committed (whether to a cause or an asylum) get pushed to the sidelines.

[Disco]

I you're earning 30k and can't afford to pay normal rent then you're doing something drastically wrong.

[Yevrah]

The tin hats are well and truly out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35269160

It's a shame Corbyn's got no clue what he's doing as I fancy his principles and beliefs would have gone down reasonably well with the electorate.

[Lewis]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYTajFNWYAIjda5.png

Is he ill? Either way: Grace Petrie is BACK. :drool:

[GS]

https://orderorder.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/yougov.png?w=900

This was before the reshuffle too. Still. MANDATE.

[Jimmy Floyd]

This week has been a real smorgasbord of comedy gold, and yet they're definitely going do outdo it at least four or five times before the elections in May. The BBC/Kuenssberg thing has outed Seumas Milne as one of the most incompetent men ever to work in top line politics.

I'm surprised Gideon is actually able to stop himself from lolling in public.

[Reg]

I saw Grace Petrie supporting Billy Bragg. Not a big fan.

Surprised on those Corbyn numbers. I thought Labour folk thought he'd done well at the PMQs, at least.

[Lee]

The return of Red Wedge. :D

Reg, Labour members probably think he has done ok. But his job isn't to appeal to them, it's to be seen as a prospective PM by the wider electorate. LOL.

[Lewis]

I think the real question is whether they all ride together between venues on that tour.

[Lee]

They're probably living together in a fucking commune.

[Lewis]

Bopping up the M1 to 'We all dream of a bench of Jez Corbyns...', with John McDonnell banging the roof and shouting 'A WHAT?!' in between each line.

[Jimmy Floyd]

That wouldn't work. You can't split on a tour bus.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Was just reading up on Red Wedge after Lee's post.


After the 1987 election produced a third consecutive Conservative victory, many of the musical collective drifted away.

I bloody love Wikipedia sentences like that.

[GS]

The Mirror have got stuck into Corbyn today.

That said, Cameron's walking into trouble over Europe as expected. Apparently as many as two-thirds of their MPs favour 'Brexit'.

[Giggles]

That's the first time I've seen that Brexit word but a Google tells me it's an actual thing. Who the fuck came up with that? Are politicians actually using it when they're talking about it?

[Magic]

Grexit was a thing so why not?

[Giggles]

Grexit was a thing so why not?

It was? I can understand idiot journalists but do politicians actually use it?

[GS]

https://medium.com/@Alison_McGovern/in-sorrow-and-in-my-own-words-this-is-what-happened-this-week-92f2cb1943dd#.bs48p74da

A "hard right" organisation. What are they hoping to achieve with this and having a go at the BBC? "Real opposition" indeed.

[Yevrah]

The Mirror have got stuck into Corbyn today.

That said, Cameron's walking into trouble over Europe as expected. Apparently as many as two-thirds of their MPs favour 'Brexit'.

What did the Mirror say?

As for Europe, Cameron's clearly going to muff it.

[Jimmy Floyd]

They seem to be trying to exterminate most of their own party. I'm baffled.

[GS]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-must-clear-out-7150140


So not only do his MPs have to learn to live with him, Mr Corbyn also has to learn how a modern party head should act.

Nothing better illustrates his lack of readiness than the shambolic manner in which he conducted his reshuffle...

Today the Sunday Mirror reveals the inside story of the damp-squib reshuffle.

It does not make pleasant reading for anyone who wants a strong, effective Labour party that can expose and fight this disgraceful Tory government...

Mr Corbyn has a big mandate to lead but he needs to sort out a modern, professional, organised leader’s office – not the ragbag of aides he has surrounded himself with, who not only share his opinions but also his lack of experience and ability for running things.

[Lee]

What did the Mirror say?

As for Europe, Cameron's clearly going to muff it.

Cameron knows what he's doing. Remain will win comfortably and the Tory Eurosceptics then have to shut up.

[Yevrah]

Cameron knows what he's doing. Remain will win comfortably and the Tory Eurosceptics then have to shut up.

Can't see it myself, but we'll see.

[GS]

They seem to be trying to exterminate most of their own party. I'm baffled.

One assumes they see it as a genuine "once in a generation" opportunity to impose their ideology on the wider party. The hard left had drifted into irrelevance prior to "Corbynmania", and this unexpected platform for their views is one they're not prepared to let slip. They're presumably trying to intimidate the so-called moderates MPs into siding with them (or at least not disagreeing with them and thus legitimising the current leadership) for fear of being dubbed a Blairite or a Tory. Ken Livingstone has been particularly good at this, by suggesting deselections, that Corbyn sack Hilary Benn or that the defence review will encompass a review of NATO membership. It's quite difficult for Labour MPs to do anything about his statements, or those of the wider pro-Corbyn elements, because then they have McDonnell et al attacking them for being "hard right", Blairites or Tories with the ever-lingering fear of deselection.

The concern for Labour MPs, I think, is that there's only so much longer this can go on before the Labour position is irrecoverable. Corbyn is performing significantly worse than Miliband was at the equivalent point in time, and the gaps on the economy and security are only going to increase given the ease with which the Conservatives can attack Labour, both on past performance and on stated-views from the current leadership "clique". One assumes they need a poor electoral performance e.g. the local elections, but Sadiq Khan will probably win the Mayoral race and that gives Corbyn more time. He needs to resign as well, because the mechanics of the leadership mean that Labour MPs need him not to automatically stand for re-election so they can control the ballot. One assumes they'll need to effectively cull the current membership to protect themselves from this sort of "insurgency" in future, although maybe they'll have more common sense than to "lend" their vote to anyone again.

[Lee]

Can't see it myself, but we'll see.

I'd be amazed if people vote to leave. People don't care that much about Europe as an issue which leaves us with the personalities. The electorate trust Cameron and Osborne who are opposed by the laughable Farage. The only thing I could see making it close is Johnson going for leave but I reckon he'll play nice in return for a big job when he relinquishes the mayoralty.

The whole thing is a sham, really. There will be no renegotiation but Cameron will get enough that he can claim some sort of victory and people will believe him anyway.

[GS]

I'd be amazed if people vote to leave. People don't care that much about Europe as an issue which leaves us with the personalities. The electorate trust Cameron and Osborne who are opposed by the laughable Farage. The only thing I could see making it close is Johnson going for leave but I reckon he'll play nice in return for a big job when he relinquishes the mayoralty.

The whole thing is a sham, really. There will be no renegotiation but Cameron will get enough that he can claim some sort of victory and people will believe him anyway.

Further stories around immigration / lack of control of the EU's borders similar to last summer may push it close if they happen at the "right" time, but ultimately I suspect you're right. People will get nervous when they hear "loss of jobs" or "massive adverse impact on the economy" etc. and will most likely vote for the status quo. It would need a significantly game changing event for Leave to win, I would think.

[Yevrah]

I'll look forward to my e-victory.

[Boydy]

Progress are a bunch of jebends.

[Boydy]

One assumes they see it as a genuine "once in a generation" opportunity to impose their ideology on the wider party. The hard left had drifted into irrelevance prior to "Corbynmania", and this unexpected platform for their views is one they're not prepared to let slip. They're presumably trying to intimidate the so-called moderates MPs into siding with them (or at least not disagreeing with them and thus legitimising the current leadership) for fear of being dubbed a Blairite or a Tory.

No one is scared of that. The 'moderates' spend all their fucking time attacking Corbyn in the press. Thy don't even bother attacking the Tories.

[Jimmy Floyd]

As long as they're aware of the scale of electoral defeat that awaits them. Every Labour government ever has been 'moderate'.

[GS]

No one is scared of that. The 'moderates' spend all their fucking time attacking Corbyn in the press. Thy don't even bother attacking the Tories.

I think the issue is more that Corbyn et al (henceforward the "hard left") actually see the soft left or the centre within Labour as a bigger enemy than the Tories. The soft left or the centre have somehow betrayed the cause and corrupted the message of the hard left, therefore they can't move on to attacking the Tories until such time as they have purified the "non-right".

I don't see any other explanation for attacking moderates - centre or centre left by any normal definition of the terms - as "hard right" or "red Tories". That we are several months into the Corbyn leadership and it continues is evidence that it's a fight the hard left are determined to win.

[Boydy]

What? You've got it completely arse about tit. Corbyn and his supporters do attack the Tories. The 'moderates' i.e. Chuka Umunna and twats like him are the ones who spend all their fucking time slagging off Corbyn in the press. If they put their energy into attacking the Tories instead maybe they'd have a better chance of winning.

Look at Simon Danczuk, the fucking prick. Had his little column in the Mail on Sunday slagging off his own party instead of attacking the real enemy. Nice to see the rightwing media have turned on him now though.

Dan Jarvis is getting in on the act now too.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Nobody's doing any winning with these cretins in charge though. People don't vote for left wing agendas. Ever.

[GS]

What? You've got it completely arse about tit. Corbyn and his supporters do attack the Tories. The 'moderates' i.e. Chuka Umunna and twats like him are the ones who spend all their fucking time slagging off Corbyn in the press. If they put their energy into attacking the Tories instead maybe they'd have a better chance of winning.

Look at Simon Danczuk, the fucking prick. Had his little column in the Mail on Sunday slagging off his own party instead of attacking the real enemy. Nice to see the rightwing media have turned on him now though.

Dan Jarvis is getting in on the act now too.

McDonnell has attacked Progress as "hard right", Livingstone has suggested sacking members of the Shadow Cabinet, Seamus Milne and his team have been briefing about revenge sackings, Diane Abbott has been doing whatever Diane Abbott does. The Corbyn clique have attacked moderate elements within Labour, and have done so repeatedly by citing Corbyn's mandate and the views of the membership as cover.

This is entirely legitimate for the leadership, but Corbyn's views are not aligned with either current Labour party policy (e.g. Trident, NATO) or with the views of many of the PLP. They are entirely within their rights also to attack Corbyn's direction - from the backbenches - particularly if they believe his views are likely to lead to electoral annihilation.

Recent polling (an example of which is posted above) indicates huge gaps on the economy and security. The internationalist issues which Corbyn and the hard left care about barely register with the electorate. They are incapable of winning, which is surely self-evident to you at this point.

[Lewis]

There is no 'status quo' in Europe. If you vote to stay in, you're voting for further integration (and giving them a blank cheque to take the piss).

[GS]

There is no 'status quo' in Europe. If you vote to stay in, you're voting for further integration (and giving them a blank cheque to take the piss).

I don't disagree. I'm still voting to leave.

[Lee]

There is no 'status quo' in Europe. If you vote to stay in, you're voting for further integration (and giving them a blank cheque to take the piss).

That isn't what people will be voting for though. They'll be voting for Cameron's reformed EU in which we get to keep the good bits and dump the bits people don't like. Never mind that it won't be real.

[Yevrah]

That isn't what people will be voting for though. They'll be voting for Cameron's reformed EU in which we get to keep the good bits and dump the bits people don't like. Never mind that it won't be real.

This is the key - I don't think people will be stupid enough to fall for that.

[Lee]

Perhaps, but the real question is do they care enough to reject it. I doubt it very much. I just don't see any evidence that the EU is some huge net negative. Now that's my view and I'd be voting remain regardless but but I haven't yet seen an argument (in years of hearing anti-EU rhetoric) which has made me think "that's going to turn people against membership". If I were on the opposite side of the fence that would worry me.

[Yevrah]

Open borders is surely a massive one, for a kick off.

[Lee]

We aren't part of Schengen though and once on the continent we benefit from that in the same way anybody does. People will be more concerned about the EU's external borders being properly managed since that was the real fuck up.

That will (have to) be sorted now and, anyway, imternal borders probably aren't going to be open in the way that they were for some time now. Which in my view is a massive shame as I think open borders within the EU are a great thing, but you can't win 'em all.

[Yevrah]

I meant free movement of trade within that as well, which whatever you think of it is clearly a massive issue for many.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The only way that LEAVE can win is if there's a massive and prolonged media storm which promotes the idea of immigration and the EU being one and the same.

At the moment people know they don't like immigration, but they have absolutely no idea that that has anything to do with the EU. Indeed I'd question how many know what the EU is.

[Yevrah]

At the moment people know they don't like immigration, but they have absolutely no idea that that has anything to do with the EU.

Seriously, what makes you think that?

[Lee]

Yeah I get that. I just don't think it will be big enough. It has been something with high profile opposition forever (even during the period when polls were being accurate) and yet the polls have consistently had most saying they want us to stay in. As you say, we'll see.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Seriously, what makes you think that?

Every time people get asked in polls for unprompted 'most important issues' they all name immigration (I think it's number one at the moment, ahead of even the economy) but the EU isn't even in the top 15.

People aren't stupid but they are ignorant.

[Lee]

Seriously, what makes you think that?

A look at polling responses tells you. Immigration is consistently toward the top of the issues people care about most. Europe is at the bottom, often with less than 5% of respondents citing it as at all important. If people connected the two there wouldn't be that difference.

There's also that there is clearly a racial element to anti-immigration feeling (and that's not me saying it's racist to not like immigration, just that it's a factor for some who don't). European immigrants are white and contribute to the economy. Non-European immigrants often aren't white (and so are more visible for one) and contribute less economically.

[phonics]

Someones had at the Jeremy Corbyn Twitter. Genuinely looks like there's been a wrestling of the keyboard.

"“@jeremycorbyn (https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn): fucktrident\]"

“@jeremycorbyn (https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn): david cameron is a pie

[GS]

The European Union would work fine (well, relatively speaking) if it was western European nations with comparable standards of living only - you'd gain as many as you lose. When it was opened up to less advanced economies from the former Soviet bloc, the movement of people was only ever going to go one way and cause longer-term problems. It's one of the reasons you can't have Turkey in. That and they can't control their own borders with the likes of fucking Syria as it is.

[Raoul Duke]

People will chimp out if you start telling them if they leave it'll be a massive ballache every time they want to go to Ibiza or whatever.

Not enough people want to leave than will be concerned to vote to stay. I believe we should stay.

[phonics]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYY4NUuWkAAYX2H.jpg

[Jimmy Floyd]

'davey cameron' will be the work of a nat.

[Yevrah]

Can he manage anything to any sort of required standard?

[Lee]

I'd like to think that is Corbyn, pissed off his face.

[Raoul Duke]

I love that someone got ahold of the account and then just purely used it for juvenile pranks and swearing :D

[Kikó]

What are we supposed to be looking at in those Corbyn tweets?

[Lewis]

There was a great debate/interview between Daniel Hannan and Natalie Bennett the other week on the European Union. Bennett basically said everything about the European Union is shithouse, but her solution was to elect Green governments who could 'make it work for ordinary people'. It's almost a culture really. People simply can't imagine not being in it (as they can't imagine not being a nuclear power).

[phonics]

688301062093172736

[Boydy]

He is such a cunt.

[Shindig]

Simon is Simon driven. What kind of wank is that?

[QE Harold Flair]

I'm just going to place this here, as a reminder.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tc6Cb3wHu8

[GS]

I think even the most enthusiastic of Corbyn supporters would have to acknowledge that she shouldn't really be representing Labour. She's an MP, for fuck sake.

[QE Harold Flair]

I'm amazed she refused to answer that last question he asked about whether she just wanted to clarify that white and Asian mothers can be just as good as West Indian mothers. I don't think I've ever seen such an obvious racist in mainstream politics or such a hyprocrite.

[GS]

A series of interesting polls released this evening:

Westminster voting intention:
CON: 40% (-)
LAB: 29% (-)
UKIP: 16% (-)
LDEM: 7% (-)
GRN: 3% (-)
(via ComRes / 13 - 15 Jan)

"Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party is united":
Agree: 8%
Disagree: 73%
(via ComRes)

"David Cameron's Conservative Party is united":
Agree: 36%
Disagree: 42%
(via ComRes)

"Jeremy Corbyn would make a good Prime Minister":
Agree: 22%
Disagree: 56%
(via ComRes)

"David Cameron is a good Prime Minister":
Agree: 42%
Disagree: 40%
(via ComRes)

"I expect most people to vote for the UK to..."
Leave the EU: 40%
Remain a member of the EU: 38%
(via ComRes)

"David Cameron should stop accepting refugees coming into the UK from Syria":
Agree: 61%
Disagree: 23%
(via ComRes)

On the junior doctors' strike:
Support: 51%
Oppose: 31%
(via ComRes)

On sending parents to parenting classes:
Support: 46%
Oppose: 30%
(via ComRes)

On increasing focus on rehabilitation rather than sending criminals to prison:
Support: 35%
Oppose: 41%
(via ComRes)

On requiring EU nationals who come to the UK to pay taxes for 4 years before claiming welfare:
Support: 84%
Oppose: 8%
(via ComRes)

On scrapping the automatic financial link between trade union membership and the Labour Party:
Support: 54%
Oppose: 11%
(via ComRes)

On citizens of EU countries being free to work in other EU countries:
Support: 49%
Oppose: 29%
(via ComRes)

On renewing our Trident nuclear weapons programme "as long as other countries have nuclear weapons":
Support: 54%
Oppose: 22%
(via ComRes)

On the UK "leading the way in nuclear disarmament by not renewing its Trident nuclear weapons programme":
Support: 31%
Oppose: 35%
(ComRes)

On "the UK having a nuclear weapon":
Support: 49%
Oppose: 28%
(via ComRes)

On "the UK getting rid of its nuclear weapons":
Support: 25%
Oppose: 48%
(via ComRes)

[phonics]

Simon is Simon driven. What kind of wank is that?

It's pretty self explanatory no?

[Reg]

Andrew Neil can hardly accuse her of racism in that video, when he implies that West Indian parents aren't any good.

[phonics]

Think Dan Hannan was very good here

688031306136064002

[Lewis]

Hannan is the best Eurosceptic in the business, and if there are any televised debates he is the obvious choice.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I was thinking he should probably lead it. What's stopping them? Everyone else is running a mile from LEAVE and the UKIP lot are all either idiots, or knobhead idiots. He distances them from the 1990s awkward squad, could also have the Cleggmania novelty factor come the actual campaign.

They're probably like Chelsea and want a proven, MASSIVE name.

[Lewis]

He's given Our NHS shit in the past, so it wouldn't surprise me if he was wary of that becoming an issue.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Probably up there with Carswell's defection in the strategic brilliance stakes.

Oh well. Enoch Powell can lead it from beyond the grave.

[Lewis]

King Arthur is meant to come back when we're really in the shit, so maybe Enoch will rise in the final weeks if the polls start wavering.

[QE Harold Flair]

Andrew Neil can hardly accuse her of racism in that video, when he implies that West Indian parents aren't any good.

If Neil was racist (he wasn't) that wouldn't stop her being so.

[QE Harold Flair]

I was thinking he should probably lead it. What's stopping them? Everyone else is running a mile from LEAVE and the UKIP lot are all either idiots, or knobhead idiots. He distances them from the 1990s awkward squad, could also have the Cleggmania novelty factor come the actual campaign.

They're probably like Chelsea and want a proven, MASSIVE name.

Nonsense. Farage is a natianal treasure and only offense taking professionals dislike him. Admittedly, that's a lot of people.

[Jimmy Floyd]

He's quite funny but he has the intellectual reach of a fruit salad, which probably explains why you like him so much.

[QE Harold Flair]

You don't need to be an intellectual to be a good communicator. Some of the most intellectual people would be the worst 'frontmen'. Not that you're right, anyway.

[GS]

The issue with Farage is that for everyone who thinks he's great, there are two who think he's a twat. If his hubris leads him to position himself as the "leader" of the out campaign, it'll hurt more than it will help.

[Disco]

If want to nail on a win for the Stay campaign then just put that smug idiot in charge of the Leave camp.

[Reg]

If Neil was racist (he wasn't) that wouldn't stop her being so.
Well yes, I was accusing him of being a hypocrite, given that his comments were as bad as hers (worse probably, but still not outrageous or something that I'm going to argue about).

[GS]

No, they weren't.

[Lewis]

I recognise that if there is going to be a change in the Trident programme, the first priority has to be to protect those jobs and re-direct investment into those yards, factories and companies that would be making that material and systems to go with Trident so their jobs are protected. That is the first priority.

Why not just bring back a massive surface fleet and end unemployment in coastal towns if jobs are the first priority? Pinko disarmers don't do themselves any favours with this sort of fuzzy thinking and 'Ooh we can just have one of them' half-measures. Either say it's a waste of time and stick to binning the lot or don't bother.

[QE Harold Flair]

The issue with Farage is that for everyone who thinks he's great, there are two who think he's a twat. If his hubris leads him to position himself as the "leader" of the out campaign, it'll hurt more than it will help.

I agree and he should not be the leader, because too many people are fucking idiots who will think he's racist when he isn't. Hannen is the logical choice.

[GS]

It's not the main priority, as much as they might wish to portray it as such to mollify the concerns of the unions regarding effective support for job losses if they opposethe renewal of Trident. Corbyn and his fellow unilateralists are in a once in a generation position to overhaul long-standing party policy in an area of prime importance to them. They also have the membership of the party behind them, giving them 'cover' for a move which is clearly unpopular with the wider PLP (who all want to be re-elected and don't really want to be campaigning with a manifesto that can be - legitimately - argued as weak on security).

The issue, really, is that Corbyn and the leadership are prepared to tear the party apart on this issue for no political gain. It's a stance not supported by the wider public, and the vote will pass the Commons anyway. He's wasting what little political capital he has on this issue, largely because he'd never forgive himself if he passed the opportunity of imposing unilateralism on the party.

[GS]

I agree and he should not be the leader, because too many people are fucking idiots who will think he's racist when he isn't. Hannen is the logical choice.

I would agree on this. He's not racist, but he has said some 'provocative' things in the past to appeal to the base. That's understandable in the context of the elections he was running in at the time, but he needs to make sure he adopts a back seat role and doesn't start sounding off about "paying for foreigners with HIV".

Keep it to legitimate concerns around jobs, the economy, security and hammer those points home. Once you start talking abstract shite about "the bureaucracy in Brussels" etc., people start to lose interest. Make it real, appeal to "real life" concerns and you should start to get traction on the idea that the EU doesn't work for ordinary people and we'd be better off out of it.

PROJECT FEAR for 2016.

[Lewis]

The fact that the government want Leave.eu (the Nigel Farage ego vehicle) to be the 'official' out campaign rather than Vote Leave (where all the money and legitimate people are) tells you all you need to know about his involvement.

[Jimmy Floyd]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CY9Qkx2WUAIR8R5.jpg:large

Gawd bless the Sun. I'm particularly fond of 'The madcap leader'.

[QE Harold Flair]

The fact that the government want Leave.eu (the Nigel Farage ego vehicle) to be the 'official' out campaign rather than Vote Leave (where all the money and legitimate people are) tells you all you need to know about his involvement.

Farage, himself, wants them to work together. He's the one doing all thr groundwork and actually going out and talking to people. You're right, though. Idiots consider not wanting mass immigration to be racist.

Jimmy, that spoiler reveals nothing.

[Lewis]

Vote Leave has basically everybody of note except Nigel Farage and Arron Banks (another egotist), and they appeared to be doing plenty of 'groundwork' this weekend if their Twitter feed was anything to go by. Farage wants them to work together because he doesn't like being frozen out.

I'm not sure what idiots and mass immigration has to do with anything I've said.

[John]

The Sun just openly and obviously lolling at Liverpool on the bottom left there is the best thing about that front page.

[QE Harold Flair]

Vote Leave has basically everybody of note except Nigel Farage and Arron Banks (another egotist), and they appeared to be doing plenty of 'groundwork' this weekend if their Twitter feed was anything to go by. Farage wants them to work together because he doesn't like being frozen out.

I'm not sure what idiots and mass immigration has to do with anything I've said.

By 'people of note' you mean mostly established political figures, right? There's a good chance it won't be the established political figures that sway this.

[Henry]

The Sun should be prosecuted under the trade descriptions act for registering itself as a "news" paper.

[Lewis]

I mean everybody relevant except Nigel Farage, who if you haven't noticed is 1) very much an established political figure himself these days and; 2) not likely to sway anybody who hasn't already swayed.

[QE Harold Flair]

He's an establisheed political figure but not part of the 'establishment'. And on the Sunday Politics yesterday they were talking about disgruntled, white working class Labour switching to UKIP. They also have seen a 25% rise in their approval lately. So you might well be wrong there.

[Jimmy Floyd]

They probably need Boris in the camp to have any chance. Well, that or Spain collapsing into a barter economy between now and the referendum.

[QE Harold Flair]

I think Boris needs to be on the out side, himself. Him cosying up with 'the establishment' isn't going to do him any favours.

I reckon a thousand sexual assaults in one night by friendly refugees over here might do it, too.

[Lewis]

He's an establisheed political figure but not part of the 'establishment'. And on the Sunday Politics yesterday they were talking about disgruntled, white working class Labour switching to UKIP. They also have seen a 25% rise in their approval lately. So you might well be wrong there.

He also puts off as many people as he attracts, so until UKIP hit 50.1% in the polls their numbers are irrelevant.

[QE Harold Flair]

Cameron has 29%, doesn't he?

[Lewis]

Which is why nobody is seeking to build the IN campaign around him, or calling people who don't like him 'idiots'.

[QE Harold Flair]

Which is why nobody is seeking to build the IN campaign around him, or calling people who don't like him 'idiots'.

I called those who think Farage is racist 'idiots' as you well know. Mr Dishonest again, tut tut.

And I think you'll find Farage, himself, doesn't want the whole campaign built around him. But let's not let what he actually says cloud a good whinge. If Mr Farage were to lead the 'out' camp he would be as much or as less a figurehead as Mr Cameron is for the 'in' camp. Since nobody will have 51% approval, does that mean nobody will lead? I don't think you thought that through.

[John]

I called those who think Farage is racist 'idiots' as you well know. Mr Dishonest again, tut tut.

And I think you'll find Farage, himself, doesn't want the whole campaign built around him. But let's not let what he actually says cloud a good whinge. If Mr Farage were to lead the 'out' camp he would be as much or as less a figurehead as Mr Cameron is for the 'in' camp. Since nobody will have 51% approval, does that mean nobody will lead? I don't think you thought that through.

The original point with which you argued had nothing to do with what Farage says, it was about the government seeking to make Leave.eu the figureheads to divert attention away from the competent people with all the resources.

'What was actually said' is never your strong point.

[QE Harold Flair]

Great, but Lewis was confronting me about what I said regadring the idiots who hate Farage because they think he's racist, not the 'original point'. And after that, the conversation moved on. I don't think you followed the conversation.

[John]

Then who are you arguing against here?


And I think you'll find Farage, himself, doesn't want the whole campaign built around him. But let's not let what he actually says cloud a good whinge. If Mr Farage were to lead the 'out' camp he would be as much or as less a figurehead as Mr Cameron is for the 'in' camp. Since nobody will have 51% approval, does that mean nobody will lead? I don't think you thought that through.

[QE Harold Flair]

Lewis. Bot not against what he said in his original post - I'm arguing against what he said in the very fucking post I quoted, which was a completely different point to the one originally made.

[John]

But was related to the original point right up until you bizarrely made the suggestion that Lewis had been somehow implying that Farage wanted to be and was trying to position himself as the centre of the campaign.

You really must get better at context and how your posts relate to it.

[QE Harold Flair]

Related to, yes. So what? I deal with what he says in that post - that's how conversations move on.


Which is why nobody is seeking to build the IN campaign around him, or calling people who don't like him 'idiots'.

Any idea what the inference is there? Hmmmm.

[Lewis]

He quite clearly wants to lead the campaign. He hasn't said as much (lest he repeat his resignation mistakes), but why did he start his own campaign when he already had the UKIP platform? Why has that campaign made all the running about a merger? Why does his little mate Raheem Kassam periodically write articles about how Nigel Farage should lead the OUT campaign? It seems odd to take him at his word when all of his actions are those of a man attempting to secure a leadership role in the campaign.

[QE Harold Flair]

I think he wants to do the debate, and he is the best at it. But too many idiots are put oiff by him for reasons stated. Read yesterday that Hannen may be in favour of a 2 referendum scenario, so not sure about him now. All sound very 'vote as we want or else' to me.

I suspect he doesn't want UKIP only to be associated with leaving Europe now he's grown the party so much.

[Lewis]

So he doesn't want to lead it, he just wants to be the most prominent spokesman with the most media exposure. Right.

[QE Harold Flair]

He hasn't said that he wants to do the debate either - that's just my take on it.

[phonics]

People have actually bothered to turn up to debate Donald Trump being allowed into the country

:facepalm:

edit: Turned on BBC Parliament to watch the shambles. The House of Commons is in use by Ed Miliband who is currently debating the Energy Bill. There are about 11 people there total.

I repeat

:facepalm:

[GS]

There are a few great "modern" parliamentarians. Hilary Benn's speech on Syria was remarkable not just for its quality but also for the striking lack of comparable 'quality' interventions in recent years. When you read some of the old Gladstone or Churchill speeches, even on more mundane topics, you realise just how little comparison one can make.

[QE Harold Flair]

I think it's been a bit over-praised, really.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I watched it live and after about 30 seconds was thinking 'This is going to be the best speech I've ever seen'. It was brilliant.

[GS]

It wasn't Churchill in 1940, no - but what would be? It was still very, very good, however. On a par with Howe in 1990, although clearly the consequences of the latter were somewhat more profound to political life.

If you want someone whose oratory has been over-praised, we don't need to look further than Barack Obama.

[QE Harold Flair]

Farage dont it like that every time the European parliament convenes.

It's terrible for us all that he wasn't elected to our parliament.

[GS]

Farage dont it like that every time the European parliament convenes.

Farage speaks very well, but he's shouting around the fringes on debates which no-one cares about. Brussels isn't the same as the Commons.

[QE Harold Flair]

I know, which is why he'd be even better in parliament.

[GS]

I know, which is why he'd be even better in parliament.

I think he'd struggle - not because he's not talented, but because he's in the minority and his interventions, whilst they may be oratorically sound, aren't going to make a tangible impact.

That's not to say he's not an impressive public speaker, obviously.

[Lewis]

Hilary Benn's speech was balls.

[GS]

Hilary Benn's speech was balls.

It really wasn't.

[Reg]

I thought it was rather overrated.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It probably helped if you watched the 10-15 dreary loads of pompous shite leading up to it, which I did.

[Lewis]

It really wasn't.

He delivered it nicely, but it was shallow and full of crap history. It got over because of the Jezza is a cretin NARRATIVE.

[QE Harold Flair]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez-88_hIrLY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwbEMVsGFJg

Real world victories are even better than the 'E' ones. :evictory:

[Boydy]

Hilary is a girl's name.

[Toby]

I FARAGE didn't FARAGE think FARAGE Hillary FARAGE Benn's FARAGE speech FARAGE lived FARAGE up FARAGE to FARAGE the FARAGE ridiculous FARAGE hype.

[Kikó]

Benn's speech was great for bluster but was devoid of a strong argument. But I guess talking with a bit of passion is proper good.

[QE Harold Flair]

Looks like poor Tobes is on the brink again.

[Henry]

He delivered it nicely, but it was shallow and full of crap history. It got over because of the Jezza is a cretin NARRATIVE.

Wow. Objectivity.

[GS]

Benn's speech was great for bluster but was devoid of a strong argument. But I guess talking with a bit of passion is proper good.

I don't think it was devoid of strong argument at all. That said, part of the 'drama' was that he was imploring his own party to defy the leader. It may have carried less weight if he had been doing it with the full force of the Labour parliamentary machine and a three line whip behind him.

[niko_cee]

And it was made in the context of an entirely pointless debate.

[GS]

I did find some of the rhetoric emanating from the no camp a bit much.

[ItalAussie]

If you want someone whose oratory has been over-praised, we don't need to look further than Barack Obama.
I presume you've seen his 2004 Democratic National Convention speech? It's one of the great pieces of political oratory, and catapulted him from nobody to Presidential candidate.

Guy can talk.

[QE Harold Flair]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuikG1p7kiM

Try to ignore the motormouth who thinks her voice sounds nice.

Twitter unverified Milo because he's not the correct type of gay, and he's not happy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPGXGwPK9Tc


Oh and Lewis, he says he prints his phone number and anyone can call him.

[Disco]

Perhaps they don't think he's notable enough anymore. It's essentially meaningless anyway, he should just get over it.

[Boydy]

We’ve been conned by the rich predators of Davos

http://gu.com/p/4gv78?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Aditya Chakrabortty is so good.

[Jimmy Floyd]

*rubbish.

That article is a rambling whinge with no fact checking or application of historical perspective whatsoever.

[Henry]

*rubbish.

That article is a rambling whinge with no fact checking or application of historical perspective whatsoever.

Please point out what facts were in error and what perspective should apply.

[niko_cee]

I'm not really sure what is so wrong with 'inherited wealth' in a non-Saudi prince context.

[Jimmy Floyd]

There are countless emotive straw men proposed with no evidence supplied that they are based in reality.

'The 80s were the decade of trickle-down economics, with Thatcher and Reagan cutting taxes for the richest and promising that everyone else – from Easington to Port Talbot, Pittsburgh to Milwaukee – would soon feel the benefits.'

Was it?

'They get to ensure that tax havens are treated with due leniency, all the better to hide their trillions in them.'

Do they?

'One doesn’t need to be a Bolshevik to see that many of the world’s super-rich are recipients of dumb luck, born into the right family at the right time.'

Who claims that this is not the case, and when has it ever been different?

He's like a left wing version of Richard Littlejohn, good for putting fire in the belly of the converted I suppose.

[Henry]

Those things are very well documented. I don't think you can reasonably argue with them. It's an opinion piece, not an academic paper.

[QE Harold Flair]

It's an opinion piece, not an academic paper. I'll remember that.

[Lewis]

Oh and Lewis, he says he prints his phone number and anyone can call him.

Fight your own battles, mate.

[QE Harold Flair]

Fight your own battles, mate.

I will. You were the one criticising him, and you did ask me to set it up. Changed your mind?

[Lewis]

Feel free to approach him on my behalf, but I'm not sure why this is special. I criticise a lot of people whose contact details are readily available.

[Henry]

It's an opinion piece, not an academic paper. I'll remember that.

Why will you? Do you think it means that you can make racially bigoted statements or the like without having to back them up?

[Disco]

Is the Oxfam report he references the silly one based on net worth which hugely skews one end of the graph?

[phonics]

So I was watching this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyh1RNIThm8

And it made me think, why is the Pound still so bloody strong? America has spent the last 2 decades devalueing it's own currency, we can't compete with the rest of the world as the exchange rate is terrible and yet it's barely gone down in my time abroad. Yeah it's gone from 2.5 to 1.5 here but that's more to do with a strong Swiss Franc than an economically strong UK.

My economics is eh- at the best of times but the Forex has confused me for even longer.

[Lewis]

Because it's got the Queen on.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Probably because, shockingly, we have not actually gone to hell in a handcart, rack, or, indeed, ruin.

[phonics]

Probably because, shockingly, we have not actually gone to hell in a handcart, rack, or, indeed, ruin.

Nor has the US or China? The US has been doing it since 9/11.

[Pepe]

The dollar is strong as fuck right now mate, almost on par with the Euro.

Eighteen pesos for a dollar. :moop:

[Toby]

So I was watching this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyh1RNIThm8

And it made me think, why is the Pound still so bloody strong? America has spent the last 2 decades devalueing it's own currency, we can't compete with the rest of the world as the exchange rate is terrible and yet it's barely gone down in my time abroad. Yeah it's gone from 2.5 to 1.5 here but that's more to do with a strong Swiss Franc than an economically strong UK.

My economics is eh- at the best of times but the Forex has confused me for even longer.

The strength of the UK's financial sector is fairly dependent on the pound being strong and stable, which probably trumps any benefit from letting it devalue.

[Jimmy Floyd]

China is handcart-bound right now. Yuan heading cliffwards and gathering speed.

[Pepe]

And just wait until Trump imposes those tariffs on their goods!

[phonics]

The strength of the UK's financial sector is fairly dependent on the pound being strong and stable, which probably trumps any benefit from letting it devalue.

Why? These are genuine questions by the way. Hence why Jimmy's simplistic view of 'cuz they're shit lol' isn't quite cutting it.

[Magic]

Its thanks to the Tory austerity program.

Dave. :cool:

[Toby]

Why? These are genuine questions by the way. Hence why Jimmy's simplistic view of 'cuz they're shit lol' isn't quite cutting it.

Because the risk of a devaluing currency is a disincentive to anybody wishing to purchase anything in that currency. The pound is demonstrably very stable, hence it makes sense to make transactions in sterling because whatever you buy shouldn't quickly lose value.

[QE Harold Flair]

Why will you? Do you think it means that you can make racially bigoted statements or the like without having to back them up?

What racially bigoted statements are you referring to?

[QE Harold Flair]

Probably because, shockingly, we have not actually gone to hell in a handcart, rack, or, indeed, ruin.

Not economically.

[phonics]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZF1IIvUYAAJZ3p.png

[Lewis]

The fall-out from the bollocks polls is interesting, not least because Labour might have been trailing all along (save for an eighteen month period when the economy went shite). Would Labour have chucked the leader had they known that?

[Jimmy Floyd]

No, because it's Labour. They didn't even chuck McMental.

Some pollsters fear they are still overstating Labour now.

:harold:

[Lewis]

Margaret Beckett's report on their election defeat is good as well. It turns out that Labour were actually right about everything, but, because the media were more interested in the coalition/having a go at Ed Miliband, we never got chance to realise.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The leader ratings were right about Miliband all along (as they always are about everything), which should serve as notice for Jezza and his -43 rating or whatever it is now.

[Henry]

LOL at people who think the media don't have a big impact on people's views.

[Lewis]

There was a report being publicised yesterday that showed poor people (the ones normally held by left-wing twats to be most susceptible to being told who to vote for by Rupert Murdoch) actually trust the government, business, and the media less than the so-called 'Informed Publics', who seemingly take everything the Guardian tells them to be true.

[Boydy]

That's probably more with stuff like health warnings and shit. It's ridiculous the amount of times I've heard stuff along the lines of 'If you believed everything you read, you wouldn't eat anything' when the media reports stuff like processed meat causing cancer.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I love those 'who do you trust' charts. Here's one from November which was trying to point out how useless Jez Hunt is/was being.

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/pic4.png

I'm not sure why people trust teachers more than scientists, who are just cleverer teachers, but hey ho. Poor old Lee is less trustworthy than The Man in the Street.

[Lee]

I find it bizarre that we are even given as an option. Our only (public) role is to be called shit by whichever government is in office.

[Henry]

There was a report being publicised yesterday that showed poor people (the ones normally held by left-wing twats to be most susceptible to being told who to vote for by Rupert Murdoch) actually trust the government, business, and the media less than the so-called 'Informed Publics', who seemingly take everything the Guardian tells them to be true.

I'm not sure what you think this proves.

[GS]

LOL at people who think the media don't have a big impact on people's views.

It was ever thus. It's why the likes of Blair et al coveted the support of the likes of Murdoch. You can adopt an attitude of contempt - or one of outright belligerency - if you want, but it's going to get you nowhere. The farcical "war" which Corbyn's circle are having with the BBC right now is going to do nothing but damage them, largely because the disengaged, non-voting public they need to turn up in their hundreds of thousands / millions to a) start voting and b) voting for Labour are the sort of people who are likely going to be swayed by the media.

[Lewis]

I'm not sure what you think this proves.

Because the normal claim is that it's only the nasty right-wing papers (http://www.thedugout.tv/community/showpost.php?p=4377717&postcount=3264) who manipulate the plebs into voting against their better interests (or at least that they are more likely to be swayed), so how is that happening when they are less trusting of newspapers?

[Henry]

It was ever thus. It's why the likes of Blair et al coveted the support of the likes of Murdoch. You can adopt an attitude of contempt - or one of outright belligerency - if you want, but it's going to get you nowhere. The farcical "war" which Corbyn's circle are having with the BBC right now is going to do nothing but damage them, largely because the disengaged, non-voting public they need to turn up in their hundreds of thousands / millions to a) start voting and b) voting for Labour are the sort of people who are likely going to be swayed by the media.

So, the answer is for Corbyn to get the press onside, presumably in your view by adopting right-wing policies? :rolleyes:

[Henry]

Because the normal claim is that it's only the nasty right-wing papers (http://www.thedugout.tv/community/showpost.php?p=4377717&postcount=3264) who manipulate the plebs into voting against their better interests (or at least that they are more likely to be swayed), so how is that happening when they are less trusting of newspapers?

The word "only" in that claim is something that you've introduced all by yourself.
And of course, you're also overstating how lefty the Guardian is. It's liberal-left, within the spectrum that the establishment finds acceptable.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The press is just a catch all excuse for the left's constant failure, not only in elections but also on issues. You didn't hear the Tories blaming it when a Blair-friendly press swept them to victory in '97.

[GS]

So, the answer is for Corbyn to get the press onside, presumably in your view by adopting right-wing policies? :rolleyes:

No, he doesn't need to adopt right-wing policies.

[Henry]

No, he doesn't need to adopt right-wing policies.

Okay, so how does he get the media on his side?

[Lewis]

The word "only" in that claim is something that you've introduced all by yourself.
And of course, you're also overstating how lefty the Guardian is. It's liberal-left, within the spectrum that the establishment finds acceptable.

I honestly can't remember ever seeing the Mirror/Guardian being criticised on similar grounds. Just think of all those middle class conservatives being negatively-influenced by the Guardian (Boydy, Boydy, and probably Boydy as well).

[GS]

Okay, so how does he get the media on his side?

He probably can't. Jeremy Corbyn (and his inner circle, including John McDonnell) simply have too many dodgy statements behind them or positions which are incredibly difficult to defend with the average voter.

That said, he's not helping himself with his management of the party. His recent reshuffle is a prime example. He allowed his team to brief for days / weeks in advance that there would be a reshuffle in the new year, and that he'd move Hilary Benn from the foreign office brief. When the time came, it dragged on for three days with everyone questioning whether Benn or Maria Eagle would be moved. It made Labour the story for days, and it was all through complete mismanagement of media message. They should never have briefed in advance, and they certainly shouldn't have been leaking what they wanted to do before realising he didn't have the clout to follow through.

[Boydy]

What's this about me?

[niko_cee]

A panel of experts has concluded this [The failure of pollsters to forecast the outcome of the general election] was due to Tory voters being under-represented in phone and online polls.

I seriously couldn't believe this when I saw it as a headline earlier today. Have they been working on this for 6 months or whatever it has been?

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's not quite been reported accurately. It was basically an over-representation of students and 'engaged' young timewasters. They also fucked up the oldies by lumping everyone over 60/65 into one sampling group.

[QE Harold Flair]

LOL at people who think the media don't have a big impact on people's views.

Not as much as they used to. In this internet age a lot of people get their news from alternative and less politically correct sources.

[ItalAussie]

There's definitely a strong indication that partisan voters seek out news sources that correspond to their political stance. However, that's not who politicians are trying to win; their voting patterns are locked-in already. The "mainstream" media can still exert strong influence on swing voters, who aren't spending their time hunting down partisan sources and arguing their stance on the internet.

[Toby]

Because the normal claim is that it's only the nasty right-wing papers (http://www.thedugout.tv/community/showpost.php?p=4377717&postcount=3264) who manipulate the plebs into voting against their better interests (or at least that they are more likely to be swayed), so how is that happening when they are less trusting of newspapers?

There is always the angle that a lot of people who claim to be free thinking trailblazers who don't trust or need anybody to form their views are actually the most prone of all to regurgitating other people's opinions.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Don't tell him, Pike.

[Lewis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXkKbFQRHcs

Peter Oborne. :cool:

[QE Harold Flair]

I like Oborne but he's off the mark regarding Muslims. Yes, devout Muslims are bad (for us) Muslims.

[QE Harold Flair]

More excellence from Milo. My favourite part at the end 'Islamophobia is racism!'. A completely wrong statement and also absolutely nothing to do with what was being discussed. It's almost like the leftoid Marxists have a string you pull and a standard set of whinges are voiced.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guIvoYSuStE!

[Jimmy Floyd]

Corbz has now said there should be a dialogue with Argentina about Falklands sovereignty 'with no preconditions'.

What is he doing?

[Lewis]

It's obviously shit politics, but I don't understand the position generally. I would happily give up our Antarctic territories because what is the point, but there are actual people on the Falklands who want to be British. If anti-colonialism isn't based on a belief in self-determination then what actually is it?

[Boydy]

He's fucking about wasting political capital on shit that isn't important is what he's doing.

I don't give a shit about the Falklands (and he's going the wrong way on it as Lewis said) or Trident. Fucking focus on inequality and the redistribution of wealth. It's the main point of Labour.

[Boydy]

Wait, was it because of this, Jim?

Argentina's president: 'I will try to start a new kind of relationship' with the UK

http://gu.com/p/4gx2v?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Seems more reasonable then. Still a waste of time though.

[Disco]

That seems like the kind of thing you'd do if you didn't want to be President of Argentina any longer.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Nah, Corbo started the debate himself on Sunday and has now clarified his position.

[phonics]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXkKbFQRHcs

Peter Oborne. :cool:

Peter Oborne donning it as per usual

Last two people I've praised in this thread have been Dan Hannan and Peter Oborne. Look at me, smashing the narrative.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'd love to agree with him but as for so many on the left too, Corbyn isn't what he thinks he is. He's looking for an actual left dissident with new ideas (like Owen Jones himself, if we're being generous). Corbyn is just a grey, mediocre twat.

[Boydy]

I've not watched it yet, guys. I will do so later and give you my hot take then. Hold tight.

[Lewis]

This party political broadcast is good. It's just Jezza talking about things like you've met him at a funeral.

[phonics]

I think I might be less pro-Jez than Lewis at this point in time.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Best Labour PPB for, ooh, 22 years?

Lots of time for that shot of him in a hard hat in an unfinished house saying 'This looks great!'

[GS]

He's fucking about wasting political capital on shit that isn't important is what he's doing.

I don't give a shit about the Falklands (and he's going the wrong way on it as Lewis said) or Trident. Fucking focus on inequality and the redistribution of wealth. It's the main point of Labour.

There's a reason why no-one is bothering to hold the Tories to account, and this is it. Corbyn hasn't a notion how to run a party, and those he's surrounding himself with don't either.

[Lewis]

I think I might be less pro-Jez than Lewis at this point in time.

The fact it's Jezza and not 'Jezza' tells you all you need to know.

[Lewis]

Labour's new members are rich communists (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/20/labours-new-members-mostly-wealthy-city-dwellers-leaked-report), but I'm more interested in the picture they've chosen. Busted, Randrew.

[Boydy]

I saw that.

Surely membership of political parties is probably just higher among the middle classes in general?

[Davgooner]

Some picture, that.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I doubt it, depending on where you draw the class boundaries. The people who go down the Conservative club down here are proper pond life.

[Boydy]

Don't Conservative clubs have cheap bars though?

[Lewis]

The Newsnight bit on the SDP was good. Shirley Williams blaming the Falklands War for them not winning the election, Roy Hattersley blaming the SDP for Labour not winning it... Thirty years, lads. You just got donned. Let it go.

[Jimmy Floyd]

This happened in Parliament today:


With specific regard to the anal sex question, it was Mr Vaz who highlighted that, ‘The government recognises that representations have been made to the effect that poppers have a beneficial health effect in enabling anal sex in men who have sex with men.”

[Lewis]

And with that, Keith Vaz has officially opined on literally everything.

[phonics]

I was reading an interesting thing from the gay 'scene' talking about how most gays will just start doing Crystal Meth instead because if they're going to go illegal to do it, may as well go all the way. Seems a bit much. Can't say I ever saw the big deal but my gay friends were well into em.

[Boydy]

Are crystal meth and poppers even similar?

Isn't 'chem sex' a big thing in the gay 'scene'? At least I think I saw some Guardian article about it but I didn't bother to read it to find out.

[phonics]

Are crystal meth and poppers even similar?

No but the initial rush off both of them distract you from the pain of getting a cock up your arse apparently.

[Jimmy Floyd]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/21/jeremy-corbyns-head-of-policy-and-rebuttal-switches-to-new-role

This piece is amazing. It reads like a press release the Kremlin would have sent out in the mid 1930s. Milne is clearly a psychopath.

[phonics]

690123946776223744

Bloody forriners. Coming over here, being better at our own language than us.

[QE Harold Flair]

If there's one thing I fucking hate, it's my fellow countrymen and my fucking race.

I note that's in London, where the 'forriners' achieving good grades are more likely to be rich and the British more likely to be the inner city braindeads. The sensible British people have been leaving London in droves, so they might be able to live in recognisably British areas.

[GS]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/21/jeremy-corbyns-head-of-policy-and-rebuttal-switches-to-new-role

This piece is amazing. It reads like a press release the Kremlin would have sent out in the mid 1930s. Milne is clearly a psychopath.

This merely reinforces the view that the current leadership are more determined to win the fight within the party than they are to win the fight against the Tories.

[Raoul Duke]

If there's one thing I fucking hate, it's my fellow countrymen and my fucking race.

I note that's in London, where the 'forriners' achieving good grades are more likely to be rich and the British more likely to be the inner city braindeads. The sensible British people have been leaving London in droves, so they might be able to live in recognisably British areas.

Tower Hamlets (where I live) is one of the poorest boroughs, and has a large Bengali community - pretty well integrated but lots of parents don't speak great English. Those kids achieving those grades are absolutely kicking arse.

It's got fuck all to do with rich foreigners. There is a bit more of a mix coming through now, but middle class parents who moved here won't be old enough to have kids taking their GCSEs.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The ethnic breakdown of exam results in London is pretty interesting. I can't remember who does the very worst (think it's Bangladeshis) but whites are low down the list, as are black Caribbeans. Black Africans however lol everyone off the charts, even the Chinese I think.

The one thing you have to remember with 'English as a first language' though is that there are A LOT of Frenchmen in London. Half a milion or something ridiculous.

[Raoul Duke]

London is something like the 6th biggest 'French' city. They send politicians over here to campaign :D

[phonics]

Yeah the Bangladeshi's smash all of the stats

690125724632621056
690126055781355521

I can't say I've ever been a massive fan of the Asian style of parenting but it gets results. The nutters.

edit:@Raoul Duke

Tower Hamlets specifically

690124184547147776

[Lewis]

I remember reading a while back that you can even divide the Nigerians' performance by ethnic group, presumably because some batter their kids more than others.

[QE Harold Flair]

Tower Hamlets (where I live) is one of the poorest boroughs, and has a large Bengali community - pretty well integrated but lots of parents don't speak great English. Those kids achieving those grades are absolutely kicking arse.

It's got fuck all to do with rich foreigners. There is a bit more of a mix coming through now, but middle class parents who moved here won't be old enough to have kids taking their GCSEs.

Lol at 'well integrated' in Tower Hamlets. The white Brits would have to be the ones integrating.

Another thing to take into consideration is that those who can speak multiple languages are just more likely to be more intelligent.

As for the Phonics stats on Tower Hamlets, the whites who can afford to leave are probably doing so, leaving the dimwits behind.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J80AGEvRQOg

:evictory:

[Kikó]

Tell us more about your first hand London experiences Kevin? Which borough is Hatfield in again?