The UK Politics Thread [Wot did Jez do now...]

[Lewis]

I'm not the biggest Dave fan but to be fair, I think if any PM since the war had twitter and a load of baying shot-to-nothing opponents following their every move he wouldn't stand up any worse than the others.

I reckon he isn't even trying anymore (if he ever really was). He just looks and sounds like he's phoning it in and letting everyone strive for supremacy.

[Jimmy Floyd]

He had dinner 'as a friend' with Sir Nick 'Cleggers' Clegg on Monday night. Imagine being reduced to that.

[GS]

Dave gave the Scottish lads a referendum and every advantage they could have wanted, and he's also giving the rest of us a referendum on the EU.

That's quite good.

[Lewis]

There was a bollocks council election in Shrewsbury earlier, and this was the result:

LAB - 47.8% (-28.7)
CON - 24.7% (+1.1)
LDEM - 21.0% (+21.0)
GRN - 6.6% (+6.6)

Winning the election by attracting Greens and disenfranchised voters is ON.

[Toby]

The latest Scottish poll has 46% saying they don't know who Kezia Dugdale is. That could just be Cybernats on the wind up, but it's hardly encouraging for them. I think there's a real possibility they're already dead as a party.

[Davgooner]

The Lib Dems have run riot!

[Lewis]

This Indian beano at Wembley is a bit suspicious. You should have gone on our behalf, Floyd.

[Lewis]

666282435852812288

lol

[GS]

I see Jezza has come out against a shoot to kill policy if there was a similar attack here and has been roasted at the latest PLP meeting.

Top, top, TOP work.

[Byron]

Ignoring the fact that Cameron hardly supported it himself, preferring to dodge the question.

But don't let that stop you.

[GS]

I won't.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Red Ken's career going down in self inflicted flames. How utterly glorious.

[Lewis]

I thought his non-apology was quite excellent. We could do with more of those.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's only a council by-election but still, the hilarity:

Aylesford Green (Ashford) result:
CON: 23.5% (-21.5)
UKIP: 23.2% (+23.2)
LAB: 22.6% (-32.4)
AI: 19.6% (+19.6)
LD: 9.0% (+9.0)
GRN: 2.1%

[phonics]

667652935845814272

You can only laugh at this point.

[Jimmy Floyd]

A new poll has the Evil Tories on 42%, whilst Jezza's Army are on 27%, which is their lowest rating in opposition since 1983. Corbyn's personal ratings meanwhile are -28 (Cameron -4). Boris Johnson, on +17, remains the only politician in positive figures.

However once you adjust for Rupert Murdoch forcing people to think those things, the data shows that real socialism has not yet been tried.

[Lewis]

ComRes have got Dave leading Labour by fifteen points (42 to 27), which is lol and the worst numbers Labour have polled in opposition since Michael Foot or whatever. But beyond that they also seem to have a lead in every English region and (loller still) across every social group. What were Labour playing at?

EDIT: Party like it's 2010. Two parties, back together in the national interest...

[Lee]

It really is a disgusting situation they find themselves in. Corbyn is the first Labour leader my dad has actually hated.

[Davgooner]

Sanders should give Jezza a bit of advice. That speech the other day. :cool:

[Lewis]

I've been singing his praises all week. Jeremy Corbyn wouldn't have invaded Iraq, mother, so when you're having a pop at him over terrorism...

[phonics]

Sanders should give Jezza a bit of advice. That speech the other day. :cool:

Can you link it. I've been a bit out of it when it comes to Sanders?

[Davgooner]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQcmzGIKrzg

[Lewis]

Twitter sez that poll would give Dave a majority of 92 under current boundaries, and 154 under the proposed reforms. :harold:

[Jimmy Floyd]

They're wiping left wing politics off the map for a generation, and the best thing is that they can't do anything about it until they sort out 'the membership' who voted them in by a massive margin.

[Lee]

To even get on the ballot requires MP nominations. Corbyn only got enough out of sympathy. You'd imagine Labour MPs would be a bit more serious next time. They need to wait until May now. Watch Labour do horrifically in the local/Scottish/London mayoral elections, then chuck him. Odds are nobody has the bollocks to wield the knife though.

[Toby]

I'll be quite surprised at this point if they don't come third to the Conservatives in the Holyrood elections. That'll be a pretty serious turn for the worse and I'm sure a suitable prompt to shake things up again.

[Lewis]

If they boot James Corben (as my mother calls him) out they look like a shambolic bunch of twats. Not only that, but who replaces him? The other stiffs were decisively rejected, and the Next Generation isn't much use at the moment. 'Chuka' and Dan Jarvis only BOTTLED IT a few months ago, and if we're a country that would make somebody like Stella Creasy Prime Minister then I'm leaving.

Then again, I suppose at this point it's more about damage limitation; but why would Alan Johnson come out of semi-retirement just to phone four years in?

[GS]

Corbyn has embarrassed himself this week - it seems to be getting to a stage where a fair portion of the party are in outright revolt. He's fucking useless.

Corbyn would automatically be on the ballot as current leader apparently, so unless he steps down there's nothing they can do. He must be thinking about it though, as it's clear he has no authority whatsoever over most of the party. Far too many self inflicted wounds.

[Kikó]

It's Burnham's time to shine.

[Yevrah]

667652935845814272

You can only laugh at this point.

At first I thought that was someone on Twitter taking the piss out of him using an iPad, but that's the actual strapline?

Oh my.

[phonics]

Think The Thick Of It writer Simon Blackwell nailed it

667726829923524608

[phonics]

I watched that whole Sanders thing by the way. The man can speak.

[Davgooner]

Quiet Bat People. :cool:

[Reg]

A new poll has the Evil Tories on 42%, whilst Jezza's Army are on 27%, which is their lowest rating in opposition since 1983. Corbyn's personal ratings meanwhile are -28 (Cameron -4). Boris Johnson, on +17, remains the only politician in positive figures.

However once you adjust for Rupert Murdoch forcing people to think those things, the data shows that real socialism has not yet been tried.
Another poll...

http://uk.businessinsider.com/jeremy-corbyn-poll-numbers-v-ed-miliband-2015-11


In the country as a whole, Corbyn is actually doing rather well, according to the most recent Ipsos-MORI poll. When asked who they would vote for if an election was held tomorrow, 35% said Labour and 37% said Conservative:

OK, so Labour are still trailing the Tories. But bear in mind that back at the May general election, former Labour leader Ed Miliband managed to poll only about 30% of the national vote, to PM David Cameron's 37%. Both parties have gained as they continue to take votes from UKIP and the Liberal Democrats, according to the YouGov polling blog. (The Green Party added a point, too.)

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'll be quite surprised at this point if they don't come third to the Conservatives in the Holyrood elections. That'll be a pretty serious turn for the worse and I'm sure a suitable prompt to shake things up again.

Of more concern to the LONDON BIASED MEDIA will be if they lose the mayoralty, which in a post-Boris world they really should be pissing. I'm told however that some Labour activists are planning to secretly work for Zac in order to lose and thus get Corbyn out.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Another poll...

http://uk.businessinsider.com/jeremy-corbyn-poll-numbers-v-ed-miliband-2015-11

I don't know where to start with that article, but the author should probably start with learning what polls are.

[Reg]

What would make that a poll then? Genuine question.

[Jimmy Floyd]

He's taken the raw, unweighted data from a poll and used it as meaningful numbers. It's the same idea as if I went down the high street now, asked 20 people and presented that as a reliable national poll without adjusting it for reality.

[Reg]

Well I'm pretty sure he knows that.


Polls are not elections of course. And the 2020 vote is a long way away

[Lee]

That quote suggests he doesn't. Distance from the election is irrelevant to the point; polls are a science and he is using raw numbers which tell us nothing.

[Byron]

This is where we need Harold. He knows raw data.

[phonics]

Asked if Mr Corbyn would have to make the case for what Mr Miliband called "responsible capitalism" (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ed-miliband-up-for-the-fight-as-labour-171211) if he were to have a chance of gaining credibility with the electorate, he said no.

He added: "I'm not going to be a back seat driver..." - to which Naughtie instantly quipped: "Well, having crashed the car, it's difficult to do that."

Ed laughed off the burn, saying "...thanks."

Woof

[Toby]

He took it very well. It was a bit unnecessary really since he was already being very self-deprecating.

[Boydy]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUfqEKeWsAE0-dG.jpg:large

[Boydy]

Welcome to Austeria – a nation robbing its poor to pay for the next big crash (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/23/austerity-robbing-poor-george-osborne)

Excellent by Aditya Chakrabortty as always.

[phonics]

Autumn Statement time

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-34915218

[phonics]

What the fuck is this, the speaker of the house just called someone 'an exceptionally noisy cheeky chappy'


The House of Commons is weird.

[Lewis]

Gideon reckons he's got twenty-seven billion more to play with than he had a few months ago (he probably hasn't), and the expected surplus is going to be higher in 2020 (it probably won't be). Forecasting.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Giving Alastair Campbell a positive namecheck in the pre budget report is possibly Peak Gideon.

[phonics]

MORE money for Cardiff? Fuck me. No wonder the rest of the country is such a shit hole. After getting more money from the EU than almost any other city they go and take 15 billion. Fuck me.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's an important regional small business economy powerhouse jobs hub. Everyone in Swansea should go and work there, and then the government won't need to spend any money in Swansea between 9 and 5 (or better still, if we adopt Chinese working patterns to win the Global Race, 5 and 9).

[phonics]

Funding for the Arts? Because for every 1 pound spent it makes 4?

You removed the UK Film Council!

[Lewis]

Growth will be higher in 2016 and 2017 than predicted in July, but lower in 2019. Why do they even bother making those claims?

[phonics]

£10.1 billion surplus by 2020



£12 billion of welfare savings



GDP forecasts: 2015 – 2.4%, 2016 – 2.4%, 2017 – 2.5%, 2018 – 2.4%, 2019 – 2.3%



OBR forecasts a £27 billion improvement in UK finances over this parliament



MASSIVE U-TURN: Tax credit cuts scrapped entirely: “the simplest thing to do is not to phase these changes in, but to avoid them altogether”



Government is spending £756 billion this year, rising to £857 billion in 2020/21



Borrowing forecasts: 2015/16 – £73.5 billion, 2016/17 – £49.9 billion, 2017/18 – £24.8 billion, 2018/19 – £4.6 billion, 2019/20 – £10.1 billion surplus



NHS budget to rise by 20% by 2020: £101 billion this year, £120 billion by 2020



Basic state pension up to £119.35 a week



Department of Health to cut 25% from its Whitehall budget



Department for Energy and Climate Change budget cut by 22%



Department for Transport budget cut by 37%



Cabinet Office budget cut by 26%



Treasury budget by 24%



Business, Innovation and Skills cut by 17%



Defra cut by 15%



DCMS cut by 20%



Proceeds of tampon tax to go to women’s charities


From Guido

[Jimmy Floyd]

I love a good U turn.

U-turner: 'We've proved we can listen'
Opponent: 'They're weak and unprincipled'

Non-U-turner: 'We're strong and principled'
Opponent: 'They've proved they don't listen'

[Boydy]

I love a good U turn.

U-turner: 'We've proved we can listen'
Opponent: 'They're weak and unprincipled'

Non-U-turner: 'We're strong and principled'
Opponent: 'They've proved they don't listen'

I don't get why such a fuss is made over them. 'After careful consideration, we've changed our minds.' Surely that's what you'd want from anyone?

Anyway, I'm glad they've stopped the tax credit cuts.

[phonics]

No Police Cuts. Counter-Terrorism up 30%

[phonics]

Jeremy Corbyn looks awfully put off by all the shouting.

[Lewis]

John McDonnell is sort of right here (generally speaking), but he's been wrong-footed by half of this and lol he's a communist.

[phonics]

Imagine getting to be Speaker, best job ever, you just get to call everyone an arsehole and tell people to shut up.

[phonics]

McDonnells gone too hard at the beginning speaking over the shouting, struggling to get through this speech now. Do they not get a glass of water?

[Lewis]

This has rapidly gone to shit.

[Lewis]

Although that was pretty good.

[Jimmy Floyd]

McDonnells gone too hard at the beginning speaking over the shouting, struggling to get through this speech now. Do they not get a glass of water?

Only the Chancellor is allowed to drink in the house during the budget speech.

Did he really whip out a Little Red Book?

[Boydy]

Only the Chancellor is allowed to drink in the house during the budget speech.

Did he really whip out a Little Red Book?

I thought he got to drink alcohol. Can the others not have water?

[phonics]

He did later find a glass of water, it looked like crystal.

[phonics]

Did he really whip out a Little Red Book?

Yep


In perhaps the most bizarre moment of the Labour response to the Autumn Statement, John McDonnell brought out his copy of the “little red book” - the quotes of Chinese communist leader Chairman Mao - as he needled Osborne over the UK’s rail network.He read a quote from the book to George Osborne, before tossing it across the chamber towards the Chancellor.
Here’s the quote:

We must learn to do economic work from all who know how, no matter who they are. We must esteem them as teachers, learning from them respectfully and conscientiously. But we must not pretend to know what we do not know.

Video: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/live-spending-review-autumn-statement-6895601

[Jimmy Floyd]

I wish I had footage of the meeting in which he and Seumas Milne decided that was a good idea.

[phonics]

It comes across as quite funny in the video, I must admit.

[John Arne]

Has VAT always been charged in Tampons? That's pretty fucking terrible.

[phonics]

It's an EU law apparently.

[John Arne]

It's a shit one. Surely on the old needs v wants scale, not walking around with blood soaked trousers is towards the former end of the scale.

[Toby]

It's an EU law apparently.

"Sanitary products" - I'm not sure if tampons themselves existed at the time - were taxed before we joined the EU. It's just EU law that we can't now remove the tax. The Irish don't have a tax because they never did, for example.

[Toby]

Almost £30bn in "additional" tax revenue is actually just down to changing the way they measure things.

669522811208269824

On the whole things look very positive but it'll be interesting to see it analysed over the next couple of weeks. I'd be very surprised if those who were likely to be affected by tax credit cuts aren't still going to be shafted another way, for example.

[phonics]

The tax credit cuts are still coming, they're just being phased differently according to the BBC Spending Review.

[phonics]

One for Tobes

669547800129048576

[Toby]

I'm well aware, but a) The OBR are equally bad at forecasting oil revenues and b) the Scottish economy seems to be growing anyway (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-31730120).

[John Arne]

I miss Seb.

[John Arne]

I'm well aware, but a) The OBR are equally bad at forecasting oil revenues and b) the Scottish economy seems to be growing anyway (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-31730120).

Bad? £8bn compared to £130m is fucking horrific. What were other folk forecasting for the period?

[phonics]

TBF, that debate was before Saudi decided that US Shale had to be destroyed much to the chagrin of their fellow OPEC cartel members.

[Lewis]

Which proves how stupid it was to make bold plans on the back of oil prices.

[Toby]

Bad? £8bn compared to £130m is fucking horrific. What were other folk forecasting for the period?

At the time of the referendum the OBR were forecasting a bit under half what the SNP were (which was £6.8bn - £7.9bn). Closer in this case, but having never come anywhere close with any forecast they've ever published on the matter. The figures used by the SNP were obviously way out but nobody was forecasting a crash on anything like the level we've seen.

[John Arne]

At the time of the referendum the OBR were forecasting a bit under half what the SNP were (which was £6.8bn - £7.9bn). Closer in this case, but having never come anywhere close with any forecast they've ever published on the matter. The figures used by the SNP were obviously way out but nobody was forecasting a crash on anything like the level we've seen.

:) Well, as long as nobody else was forecasting such a crash. GS will love this.

[Henry]

Growth will be higher in 2016 and 2017 than predicted in July, but lower in 2019. Why do they even bother making those claims?

Presumably because it allows them to pretend that their policies don't slow growth down.

[Toby]

:) Well, as long as nobody else was forecasting such a crash. GS will love this.

He's already used about ten percent of his ever decreasing posts to gloat about it, which is very strange to me since it is now the UK's asset that is devaluing and that government didn't foresee it either.

[Boydy]

Let's just be thankful they're decreasing.

[Toby]

Scotland's second biggest party is now "MPs suspended by the SNP". Natalie McGarry of Glasgow East is now the second due to discrepancies in the accounts of the campaign group she was involved with in the run up to the independence referendum.

[phonics]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CU0wQcXWsAAlihD.png:large

[Henry]

When it comes to the arms industry, successive Tory prime-ministers are devoted Keynesian's.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Apparently Super Jez faces a 25-5 defeat by his own shadow cabinet on the subject of bombing Syria, so in an attempt to 'undercut' this he has emailed all Labour members with a snap poll calling for them to back him.

I mean, just, I dunno.

[Yevrah]

Why the fuck did he appoint a shadow cabinet full of people that don't remotely agree with him?

Were it just this issue I could fathom it, but it's not, is it?

[GS]

They need to stop referencing "his mandate". For fuck sake, can they not see that they're making the party a laughing stock?

Boydy must be thrilled at basically handing the Tories a complete free pass. "Real opposition" indeed.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Why the fuck did he appoint a shadow cabinet full of people that don't remotely agree with him?

Were it just this issue I could fathom it, but it's not, is it?

Because there literally aren't enough Labour MPs who agree with him.

[Henry]

Never mind that Corbyn's stance is essentially correct.

What would you have him do - abandon it for party political gain?

[Yevrah]

Oh I'd agree he's right, solely bombing won't achieve much, but that he can't persuade his cabinet of that is surely a bit of a worry.

Out of interest, what does he actually want to do?

I thought Livingstone pretty much nailed it on QT last night in that regard.

[John Arne]

I don't see a problem with Corbyn not agreeing with some of his front bench - it's kind of refreshing that people stick by their principles, and encourage further debate. The idea that all conservatives have to think this, whilst all labour have to think that, is just bizarre.

It obviously ultimately means that he probably won't be leader tor too long, but it's still good to see.

[phonics]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CU5YftLWwAQNsFE.jpg:large

That haircut :sick:

[Shindig]

Sweet Jesus.

[phonics]

The bullying suicide case has done it for Grant Schapps. He's 'resigned'

[Jimmy Floyd]

I don't see a problem with Corbyn not agreeing with some of his front bench - it's kind of refreshing that people stick by their principles, and encourage further debate. The idea that all conservatives have to think this, whilst all labour have to think that, is just bizarre.

It obviously ultimately means that he probably won't be leader tor too long, but it's still good to see.

This is national level politics, not a school debating society.

[Boydy]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CU1OYKuWsAASnc0.jpg:large

Heh.

[John Arne]

This is national level politics, not a school debating society.

So what? Should he just ignore his principles and go along with what his mates think?

[Jimmy Floyd]

He could let them have a free vote with their conscience if he wants, but instead he appears to be attempting to compel them to follow his lead despite the fact that he's in a massive minority at shadow cabinet level. It works both ways, he isn't the principled one by default.

[Henry]

No, it does in fact look like he's going to allow a free vote at the moment.

[Yevrah]

Vote on Monday, no?

[John Arne]

Did the Tories have a vote?

[GS]

No, it does in fact look like he's going to allow a free vote at the moment.

Because he has no choice if the party isn't to dissolve in his hands within the week.

This is unsustainable levels of shit from Corbyn and his mates. He'll be lucky to last until the summer.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Did the Tories have a vote?

The Tories have been pro intervention on this forever. In the last Parliament they were defeated by the Lib Dems and Labour in a vote.

Not that this shit should really be down to the tits in Parliament anyway.

[phonics]

Who should it be up to?

[GS]

This is a somewhat laboured (no pun intended) example, but imagine Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister in the summer of 1939.

You can't have a pacifist as Prime Minister - it's effectively a disqualification from serious office.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The people who know all the facts, i.e. the government and top of the military.

[phonics]

This is a somewhat laboured (no pun intended) example, but imagine Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister in the summer of 1939.

You can't have a pacifist as Prime Minister - it's effectively a disqualification from serious office.

:D

The ultimate rule of the internet, when you're absolutely desperate to make a point that doesn't hold bring up the Nazis.

[phonics]

The people who know all the facts, i.e. the government and top of the military.

What's The Government? The Civil Service and Dave?

[Kikó]

The government would never mislead parliament With the facts either. Even if they weren't really facts in the end.

[GS]

:D

The ultimate rule of the internet, when you're absolutely desperate to make a point that doesn't hold bring up the Nazis.

It's the most recent example we have, in this country anyway, of a material and wholesale threat to national security. It is, therefore, a legitimate point in the sense that maintaining the security of your country at all costs is the government's foremost goal.

If you have someone leading that government who is simply not prepared, under any circumstances, to take the sort of drastic action that may be required to do this then he is not fit for the office. And if he is not fit for the office, then he cannot be the leader of a party with pretensions of being the government.

It is quite a simple equation.

[phonics]

The government would never mislead parliament With the facts either. Even if they weren't really facts in the end.

Iraq was a great success mate, Obama came in and fucked it up.

[Jimmy Floyd]

What's The Government? The Civil Service and Dave?

More or less.

Why does the opinion of the MP for Wankington West count for more than them? Because he is 'elected'? lol.

[Boydy]

The Tories have been pro intervention on this forever. In the last Parliament they were defeated by the Lib Dems and Labour in a vote.

Not that this shit should really be down to the tits in Parliament anyway.

Don't pretend that was the same issue.

[phonics]

It's the most recent example we have, in this country anyway, of a material and wholesale threat to national security. It is, therefore, a legitimate point in the sense that maintaining the security of your country at all costs is the government's foremost goal.

If you have someone leading that government who is simply not prepared, under any circumstances, to take the sort of drastic action that may be required to do this then he is not fit for the office. And if he is not fit for the office, then he cannot be the leader of a party with pretensions of being the government.

It is quite a simple equation.

'I think dropping bombs is pointless and won't do anything but make the situation worse for us' = 'He wouldn't fight the nazis!'

https://media.giphy.com/media/a3zqvrH40Cdhu/giphy.gif

[phonics]

More or less.

Why does the opinion of the MP for Wankington West count for more than them? Because he is 'elected'? lol.

Must admit, I never took you for a republican.

[GS]

'I think dropping bombs is pointless and won't do anything but make the situation worse for us' = 'He wouldn't fight the nazis!'

https://media.giphy.com/media/a3zqvrH40Cdhu/giphy.gif

He's a lifelong pacifist. It's not the same point being argued. Having the discussion is quite difficult as you tend to lack understanding of the issues, but we struggle on.

[phonics]

Just by the by, if Dave hadn't lost that vote we'd be fighting alongside and helping ISIS. Bet that would have worked out.

[Boydy]

Just by the by, if Dave hadn't lost that vote we'd be fighting alongside and helping ISIS. Bet that would have worked out.

It's really ridiculous that more isn't made of that in the media. But no, some people in the Labour party saying maybe we shouldn't rush into another mess in the Middle East is the big story.

I suppose it doesn't matter who you bomb in Syria as long as your arms manufacturing mates make a profit.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I bet we wouldn't.

[phonics]

I bet we wouldn't.

Have you seen Libya recently?

[Henry]

Because he has no choice if the party isn't to dissolve in his hands within the week.

This is unsustainable levels of shit from Corbyn and his mates. He'll be lucky to last until the summer.

So again, rather than sniping, perhaps you can tell us what he should do in the situation.

[GS]

So again, rather than sniping, perhaps you can tell us what he should do in the situation.

He has two options:

1) He allows a free vote and makes this clear from the outset, recognising that it's inconceivable he can have a whipped vote against bombing. He should also not suggest that he wants to reach an agreed position with his shadow cabinet and then release a letter to his MPs which undermines the shadow cabinet before they have had a chance to even attempt to reach this position. It's piss-poor management, whatever side you're on.

2) He demands a whipped vote and has half his shadow cabinet resign on him.

To be honest, the last couple of weeks from Labour have been dire. If these guys actually gave a shit about the party - or the overwhelming goal of "stopping the Tories" - then Corbyn needs to seriously consider resigning because he's doing more harm than good. Principles are fine, but party leaders need to be flexible or they're fucked. Blind idealism is fantastic in theory, but he's a joke.

[Henry]

I didn't ask what options he had (followed by the same rant yet again), I asked what you think he should do in the scenario.

[GS]

He allows a free vote. He can then muddle through to the next potential breach with the shadow cabinet.

[niko_cee]

I would have thought an issue such as whether you go to war or not should always be a free vote. Although I don't really get the whole voting business, has that always been a thing? Seems more of an executive decision really.

[Lewis]

Jezza on Andrew Marr IN A SUIT telling his MPs to get fucked. :cool:

[phonics]

Lewis swinging to Labour :cool:

You'll be at a Stop The War event by March.

[Lewis]

I've got a 'CorbIN' blazer and a Lenin hat for the next NHS march.

[phonics]

I know it's The Metro but this is just odd

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVGEITFWsAQ0UOa.jpg:large

[Boydy]

Yeah, Corbyn's the one taking us to war, not the fucking prime minister.

I was saying to my dad earlier that you'd think Labour were the ones in power the amount of media coverage and scrutiny they're getting and you'd also think that Cameron hadn't wanted to bomb the other side just a few years ago. Turned out my dad thought Assad and ISIS were on the same side. He didn't know they were fighting each other.

[GS]

If Corbyn had attempted to whip his MPs he might have made Cameron think twice as he wouldn't have been sure about securing the sort of majority he wants / needs. He'd have seen some of the shadow cabinet resign, but that would have been the price.

Instead he's handed them a free vote because he thinks he's lost the fight with the party. A man who puts principle before personal ambition indeed.

[Henry]

Why is there so much shit being talked about the Labour rebellion when there's also going to be a massive one on the government benches?


Instead he's handed them a free vote because he thinks he's lost the fight with the party. A man who puts principle before personal ambition indeed.

This is the opposite of what you were saying upthread. You'll attack him whatever he does.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Why wouldn't a train crash in slow motion get plenty of coverage?

The Tories are also getting hammered (largely by the evil Sun newspaper) for their bullying scandal.

[phonics]

If Corbyn had attempted to whip his MPs he might have made Cameron think twice as he wouldn't have been sure about securing the sort of majority he wants / needs. He'd have seen some of the shadow cabinet resign, but that would have been the price.

Instead he's handed them a free vote because he thinks he's lost the fight with the party. A man who puts principle before personal ambition indeed.

That's literally the exact opposite of what you said he should do. You're a partisan nutcase on some issues, it's weird. You lose all ability to talk normally on a subject.

[GS]

Why is there so much shit being talked about the Labour rebellion when there's also going to be a massive one on the government benches?



This is the opposite of what you were saying upthread. You'll attack him whatever he does.

There will be potentially a single digit rebellion by the Tories. This is going to barely register.

Corbyn had no choice but to allow a free vote if he wanted to stay in charge. It doesn't mean it's a principled position to take for the lifelong pacifist who it seems is more interested in staying in charge than STOPPING THE WAR.

It was, however, essential to avoid division within the party and making this a potential resignation matter for him.

[Henry]

He's doing what you said he should do. You'll want to get your criticisms straight if you want them to be taken seriously.

[phonics]

Can someone explain to me what Ken Livingstone said that was so wrong? I just heard some thicko Scottish MP calling for him to resign for 'attacking Western values' :cab:

[niko_cee]

Anyone who can be bullied by Grant Shapps or that other creature I've seen pictured as part of this scandal probably deserve it.

[GS]

He's doing what you said he should do. You'll want to get your criticisms straight if you want them to be taken seriously.

It's politically 'correct' in the sense it's not ripping his party apart. This doesn't mean it's a principled position for Jezza to take.

[niko_cee]

Presumably he's still going to vote against air strikes. I'm not sure 'forcing people to follow your point of view' can ever really be deemed 'principled'.

[Jimmy Floyd]

He's taken his only realistic option in the most dishonest possible manner. Everything he does is a fucking disaster. It's only a matter of time before mass resignations and a split.

[Henry]

It's politically 'correct' in the sense it's not ripping his party apart. This doesn't mean it's a principled position for Jezza to take.

Then you'll have a go either way, won't you?

[Reg]

There was presumably a hidden option available to Corbyn that GS would have approved of.

How has he been dishonest, Jim?

[Byron]

By not being a Tory.

[Yevrah]

I don't think Corbyn's done too much wrong here.

He's obviously not one for fighting under pretty much any circumstances, which possibly puts him in the "right, but for the wrong reasons" camp, but I'd rather that than the idiotic course of action that looks on the cards now.

[Lee]

I don't think Corbyn's done too much wrong here.

He's obviously not one for fighting under pretty much any circumstances, which possibly puts him in the "right, but for the wrong reasons" camp, but I'd rather that than the idiotic course of action that looks on the cards now.

Fucking feint-heart, we've got an army of 70,000 Muslims poised to batter IS as soon as the vote goes through you know.

[Henry]

He's obviously not one for fighting under pretty much any circumstances

I don't think he's ever expressed that view at all.

I'm sure his views on when violence should be used are more restricted than Cameron et al. but that's a bit different.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The problem with Jezza isn't whether you agree with him or not, it's that he has failed to convince his own Shadow Cabinet (or many of his own MPs) that as their leader they should be backing his position (or adjusting/moderating his position into an effective unified opposition one that they can back). Instead of being frank about it and taking the John Major 'back me or sack me' route - or even the much easier 'back me or fuck off' route - he has attempted with incredible incompetence to shore up his own position by appealing to the people that do agree with him, 'the members'. The way he has done this is by sending an email to 'the members' (and how many old people etc does this method exclude? Confirmation bias? Completely unscientific, might as well ask people in the high street) and asking them whether they agree with him or not. He has then claimed to have received thousands of emails and by checking 100 of these emails has declared that '80% of the members back me' (although he has since revised this down to 'around 75%').

In such a way he has in effect accused his own MPs and Shadow Cabinet members of being traitors to the party, and to him, simply because they don't agree with him. That's not how leadership of a serious democratic party works unfortunately. The only way out of this position was to call a free vote, which undermines his own position massively.

As a result any hope of his position, or any other position being effectively communicated in opposition to the Government's policy has been lost, and it's all because he is a fucking shambles.

[GS]

Then you'll have a go either way, won't you?

He has managed this appalling, as Jim has outlined. Corbyn and his allies continue to cite "his mandate". This is not sustainable. You cannot treat your shadow cabinet like they don't matter, and then turn a blind eye whilst your own personal pressure group mobilise to try and pressure MPs into agreeing with your view. If he can't persuade his shadow cabinet, or the party, to adopt a unified position then he's a leader in name only. You absolutely cannot try and shore up your supposed support by a sample of the members on an issue of war and peace.

It's fucking useless. You need an effective opposition - the SNP are doing a much better job, even though I think they're a collection of wet blankets.

[niko_cee]

5 years down the line, having somehow clung onto the leadership, and with Britain mired in another costly/pointless/unpopular war in the Middle East, this is going to look like a masterstroke. God help us (you).

[Spammer]

Saying they're not an effective opposition is a bit of a weird thing to say, considering the impact they had on the Tories backtracking on police funding and tax credits within the last couple of weeks alone.

[Yevrah]

They had no impact on tax credits, it was the House of Lords that saw sense with that.

[Lewis]

It's not that the MPs don't agree with him, it's that they don't agree with all the people that voted for him. You can lol at his 'mandate' all you like, but until half a million centrists sign up and tip the balance of membership support then you're stuck with it ('it' not necessarily defined as Jeremy Corbyn, since some other pinko would win a repeat vote). If all these twats can't accept the Labour Party as a union-funded, left-wing party then what is actually stopping them from leaving?

The 'moderates' don't own the party. The members and the donors do. If you can't convert them then your profile, which is wholly-dependent on your affiliation with the Labour Party brand, as a 'Big Name' is irrelevant. You're in the wrong party. If Michael Gove (who worships Tony Blair more than any Labour politician) crossed the floor and joined the Labour Party, and then set about telling them what to do, he would promptly be told to go fuck himself. How is 'Chuka' any different?

[Spammer]

They had no impact on tax credits, it was the House of Lords that saw sense with that.

Yeah but they don't work in a vacuum, and the way he stoked the fire (the 6 questions about it in PMQs spring to mind) will have done a fair bit to hammer home to your average Barry Shitpeas how much they'd have fucked people over and I imagine will given Labour a load more supporters with people on the street as a result.

I mean, if I go into my local shop on the estate and start asking people who voted Tory why they voted for them, I doubt they're gonna harp on about trickle down and supply side economics. I think Corbyn did a great job of showing them up as not really being all that bothered about the impact it had on working families - or at least not being able to explain the impact it would have honestly, which basically seems like the same thing. He did so in a way that will have been obvious to people watching it too.

[Toby]

Labour voted down the only Commons motion that would have stopped tax credits, so them claiming to be responsible for the U-turn got a good lol from me last week. That anybody is buying it gets another I guess.

[Byron]

So good to see that Cameron has decided that because Jeremy is calling for calm, he's a terrorist sympathiser. I can't imagine what's wrong with asking what our plan is, if there is even a plan given how well Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya worked out for us. But lets face it, Cameron just wants to wave his dick on the global stage and has decided anyone not with him is a member of The Enemy.

[niko_cee]

It is a bit unseemly.

Cameron is definitely coming across a lot worse these days. Presumably this is his actual personality showing through more due to not having to face another election.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Always heard that on a personal level, Cameron is a twat and Osborne is a gent.

You're all giving Corbyn far, far too much credit. Especially you, Lewis. If the party defines itself only in terms of its members and donors, then very soon those will be the only people voting for it. Broadening its appeal beyond the end of its own nose is exactly why the Conservatives have been successful over the years. If they did a Labour style rule change for Bill Cash and a load of 75 year old racists to take over it would quickly tank.

[Davgooner]

Fallon is doing my head in as well, the scaremongering little shit. Almost wishing on a terrorist attack over here.

[Henry]

He has managed this appalling, as Jim has outlined. Corbyn and his allies continue to cite "his mandate". This is not sustainable. You cannot treat your shadow cabinet like they don't matter, and then turn a blind eye whilst your own personal pressure group mobilise to try and pressure MPs into agreeing with your view. If he can't persuade his shadow cabinet, or the party, to adopt a unified position then he's a leader in name only. You absolutely cannot try and shore up your supposed support by a sample of the members on an issue of war and peace.

It's fucking useless. You need an effective opposition - the SNP are doing a much better job, even though I think they're a collection of wet blankets.

This is the same post you've made about 10 times now. It might be better if you addressed the point being made to you.

[Davgooner]

He's putting his principles above everything else and it's breaking people's minds. Long may it continue; fuck the power-chasing, career politicians.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Like fuck is he doing anything of the sort. He's not even Tony Benn. He's just an idiot rabbit caught in the headlights.

Also, much as it may be politically inept for Dave to say so, he IS a terrorist sympathiser.

[Davgooner]

Always looks quite calm to me. It's probably that that riles you up so much.

[Jimmy Floyd]

He doesn't rile me up. I hope he stays for years. He's practically ensuring that I'll be old and grey before I see another left wing government.

[Davgooner]

I doubt he wants to do this for more than a couple of years.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I doubt he wants to do it at all. He looks racked with pain every time I see him, although 66 years of not having a sense of humour will do that to you too. You all want him to be something he's not. The issue is more that the party is now constitutionally controlled by a load of crusty students and Trotskyists, and will therefore never be able to do anything sensible ever again.

[Spammer]

He didn't look like a rabbit caught in the headlights on any level whatsoever on Andrew Marr yesterday. He looked as calm as a Hindu cow and explain his point of view very clearly and without emotion.

How've you decided he's got no sense of humour?

[Jimmy Floyd]

How do I know anything about anyone?

[Spammer]

I don't know. Do you just guess?

[Jimmy Floyd]

Yup. Right now I'm going to guess that you go to fetish clubs and support Sheffield United. My guess is based on well documented information, just like it's well documented that Jezza Corbz is drier than three cream crackers in the Atacama.

[Lewis]

Always heard that on a personal level, Cameron is a twat and Osborne is a gent.

You're all giving Corbyn far, far too much credit. Especially you, Lewis. If the party defines itself only in terms of its members and donors, then very soon those will be the only people voting for it. Broadening its appeal beyond the end of its own nose is exactly why the Conservatives have been successful over the years. If they did a Labour style rule change for Bill Cash and a load of 75 year old racists to take over it would quickly tank.

The Thirteen Year Unpleasantness aside, Labour has always defined itself only in terms of its members and donors (where as Conservatism is inherently reactive). It may simply be that in 2015 there is no longer any need for a union-funded, left-wing party, in which case why not just leave the die-hards to figure that out for themselves? If you can join a party you can leave a party.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Are you suggesting a split? That sounds an excellent idea. Or they could join the Lib Dems.

Corbyn started his PRINCIPLED debate on Syria by demanding that Dave apologise for calling him a terrorist sympathiser, which Dave is heroically not doing so far. Remember, Labour, it's always about the outrage.

[Spammer]

Yup. Right now I'm going to guess that you go to fetish clubs and support Sheffield United. My guess is based on well documented information, just like it's well documented that Jezza Corbz is drier than three cream crackers in the Atacama.

It's not though, is it. You said yourself that you'd only heard that Cameron is a twat and Osbourne is lovely in real life, as opposed to how it is in politics. Just hearsay though, because obviously you don't actually know them. Not sure how it's different with Corbyn.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Based on that logic I am unable to make any personality judgement about any public figure, either current or historical, under any circumstances.

I've read all over the place that he doesn't have a sense of humour, so until I see better evidence to the contrary I'm running with him not having a sense of humour.

[Kikó]

Agreed.

[Spammer]

Based on that logic I am unable to make any personality judgement about any public figure, either current or historical, under any circumstances.

I've read all over the place that he doesn't have a sense of humour, so until I see better evidence to the contrary I'm running with him not having a sense of humour.

I just found it weird that you're happy to reserve judgement or for Osbourne and Cameron, or at least acknowledge that you don't really know either way, whereas for Corbyn it's different.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

I forgot how much childish bickering there actually was at these debates.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The Dave/Osborne comment was indicating that I do know either way.

My whole bag here is that you all seem desperate for Corbyn to have some sort of moral high ground that he really doesn't have.

[John Arne]

Corbyn started his PRINCIPLED debate on Syria by demanding that Dave apologise for calling him a terrorist sympathiser, which Dave is heroically not doing so far. Remember, Labour, it's always about the outrage.

Of course he should be asked to apologise - It's not about being OUTRAGED, it's about Cameron having to apologise for making very distasteful comments.

You're becoming a littler Sebo here, Jimmy.

[Jimmy Floyd]

So you'd rather MPs debated insults that they have been slinging at each other than the rights and wrongs of possible air strikes on Syria? You must be just as principled as Jez.

[John Arne]

So now you want them to debate???

They asked for an apology then moved on, it took a matter of minutes.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

So now you want them to debate???

They asked for an apology then moved on, it took a matter of minutes.

To be fair it's well into double figures now the number of times an apology has been mentioned.

[Jimmy Floyd]

90 minutes in the SNP are still screaming for one, says twitter.

[John Arne]

We are now calling them Daesh, I hear.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

We are now calling them Daesh, I hear.

More bollocks being spouted right now about it.

[John Arne]

My girlfriend just asked me what I was watching. After I explained, she asked "but who is debating". I explained about Labour and Conservatives, to which she bemusedly replied "Is there anyone from Syria there debating?"....

[John Arne]

More bollocks being spouted right now about it.

Aye, Jimmy will be fuming that the debate is being side-tracked. A conservative chump just spent 10 minutes congratulating himself.

[Jimmy Floyd]

'Daesh' is absolute twaddle. It's the same thing as Isis but using Arabic letters. Anyone bringing it up in this debate should be sent to the Tower.

[John Arne]

It's quite a nice sounding name. Rolls off the tongue.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

'Daesh' is absolute twaddle. It's the same thing as Isis but using Arabic letters. Anyone bringing it up in this debate should be sent to the Tower.

http://s30.postimg.org/5gyg9t7gx/maaj_2.jpg (http://postimage.org/)


http://s2.postimg.org/vx07jl66h/maaj_3.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

[John Arne]

Why is the Conservative side of the house half empty? Shouldn't everybody not be there?

[Henry]

They don't care about being called Daesh. They even use it themselves.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Not necessarily. They might not have a contribution to the debate and might be doing constituency work instead. They'll all rock up to vote.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

Agree with Julian Lewis here-

We have a choice between very nasty authoritarians and Islamist totalitarians. There is no third way.

[Davgooner]

Yvette Cooper looks like she's spent the last two months working her way through a pallet of Jaffa Cakes.

[John Arne]

Politicians love a good "I was in xxx country just last week" story... Maybe they feel that it gives their opinion some weight.

"I was in Syria for 20 minutes last week... I know what's going on, on the ground, trust me, I was there"

[Lewis]

How is 'Daesh' pronounced? I heard John Kerry and his rubber face saying 'Dash', but it reads like 'Daish' (based on Scottish 'words' with 'ae' in them).

[phonics]

Daysh

[Boydy]

Who cares? Just call them Isis. The only people I've seen using 'Daesh' are try-hard wankers. They don't give a shit what you call them.

[Toby]

I've always read it as dah-esh since it sometimes has the apostrophe in it.

As others have said before, if we're going to call them things because we think they won't like it, we should just call them goat-shagging cuntbags.

[Lewis]

This (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/12028072/In-Syria-Britain-is-about-to-make-the-same-mistakes-all-over-again.html) is very good from a terrorist-sympathising Conservative MP. The opening line is a belter as well.

[phonics]

"Gisela Stuart, Labour (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/labour) MP for Birmingham Edgbaston, said she was pleased that her inbox has been full of messages from people telling her not to vote in favour of airstrikes. “I would be deeply troubled if my email inbox was full of people gung-ho saying ‘go and get them,” she said, but she will vote in favour of airstrikes."

Representative of the people!

[John Arne]

ISIS clearly don't represent the 'normal' views of Islam... however, is it entirely accurate to suggest that they have nothing to do with Islam?
Aren't Wahhabism and Salafism pretty much accepted Islamic doctrines, albeit, extremely fundamentalist and militant sections of Islam?

[John Arne]

"Gisela Stuart, Labour (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/labour) MP for Birmingham Edgbaston, said she was pleased that her inbox has been full of messages from people telling her not to vote in favour of airstrikes. “I would be deeply troubled if my email inbox was full of people gung-ho saying ‘go and get them,” she said, but she will vote in favour of airstrikes."

Representative of the people!

Yeah, I heard that. Very bizarre statement.

[Henry]

ISIS clearly don't represent the 'normal' views of Islam... however, is it entirely accurate to suggest that they have nothing to do with Islam?
Aren't Wahhabism and Salafism pretty much accepted Islamic doctrines, albeit, extremely fundamentalist and militant sections of Islam?

Well, yes. It's not representative of most Muslims but to say that it has nothing to do with Islam is PC bullshit.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

Well, yes. It's not representative of most Muslims but to say that it has nothing to do with Islam is PC bullshit.

I like to think fewer and fewer people are letting the statement wash any more.

[Magic]

It's interesting to see the vast view swings since 08-09 on the old board. What was largely regarded as a distasteful view back then is seen as wholly acceptable now.

[Magic]

Jesus Christ, did I just log into Stormfront by mistake?


Griffin was largely shown up, the other panellists showed up to attack him, but refused to do it blindly, instead responding with calm, informed rebuttals. The only place Griffin gained any traction was the immigration section, not through any eloquence on his part, but because the panellists (and even the bloody audience) spent most of the time trying to outdo each other on how harsh their immigration controls were, legitimising his position, rather than attacking it from the left.


Incidentally, it's clear to anyone who was paying even the slightest bit of attention to the programme why Bonnie Greer was there, to rebut the BNP's historical fictions, something she really should have had more time to do.


Finally, praising his answer on Islam? Really? I'd expect this shit from Harold and Dav, but Yev? You should be fucking ashamed of yourself.

:harold:

[Henry]

I don't remember what Nick Griffin said at the time, but people have not in fact come round to BNP policies, Tragic.

[Magic]

There were a few posts by Yevrah that were arguably seer-like and he likened it to Stormfront. What a turd of a human being Dr. Barry was. Nauseating cunt.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Representative of the people, not of their rent-an-opinion shopping lists. Gisela Stuart is excellent.

[Henry]

Representative of the people

What does that mean in your view?

[Jimmy Floyd]

It means that she is the representative (n) of her constituents. It does not mean that she is necessarily representative (adj) of her constituents. If they are unhappy with her work, they can elect another.

[Yevrah]

Who cares? Just call them Isis. The only people I've seen using 'Daesh' are try-hard wankers. They don't give a shit what you call them.

Indeed. You can see the conversation now.

"So after the daring raids in Paris by our people, we need to decide what to do next"
"I'm afraid there are more pressing matters than that..."
"Go on.."
"You see, some of the infidels, some of them are..."
Yes..?
Some of them are...
"I'm waiting"
"Some of them are calling us Daesh"
"..... :serious: "
"Yes, and it's catching on. By this time next week there could be at least 12 people using the term"
"Well, that's it then, we've failed. We've failed Allah"
"I thought you might say that - I've asked the men to release the latest raft of hostages and told that Western journalist we have a really odd relationship with to go home. ISIS will be no more by the morning."
"Pint?"

[Yevrah]

ISIS clearly don't represent the 'normal' views of Islam... however, is it entirely accurate to suggest that they have nothing to do with Islam?

No it's not, in fact, it's a complete bastardisation of reality.

[Yevrah]

I don't remember what Nick Griffin said at the time, but people have not in fact come round to BNP policies, Tragic.

Doctor Barry was representative of that section of lefty shitbags who dismiss absolutely everything someone says, because they hold other abhorrent views.

I can't remember what Griffin said at the time (I'd be interested to see again if anyone can find it) but would happily agree with him (on that one point alone) if it's still how I feel.

[Henry]

Patrick Cockburn is the best journalist writing on the middle east in recent years. This (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/air-strikes-in-syria-david-cameron-strategy-can-only-repeat-our-mistakes-in-iraq-and-afghanistan-a6750601.html) should be read.

Also this (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/david-cameron-there-arent-70000-moderate-fighters-in-syria-and-whoever-heard-of-a-moderate-with-a-a6753576.html).

[Yevrah]

5,432 Air Strikes. For fuck's sake...

When I said politicians will want to be seen to be doing something in the wake of Paris, this is it.

What a pointless waste of time, money and life.

[Byron]

Exactly. Either go balls deep with a ground offensive and exit plan or don't fucking bother.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Having a close family member in the army nowadays, I have to say my views have shifted distinctly towards the cowardly isolationist ones when it comes to ground troops and exit strategies.

But the truth is that none of us fucking know and all the outcomes are probably bad.

[Pepe]

The French have been calling them Daesh all throughout.

EDIT: Maybe that's why they got bombed.

[Jimmy Floyd]

If all these SNP people are so keen on negotiating with ISIS, why don't we send all 56 of them in a big tartan bus to do it themselves?

That DUP bloke won the debate by standing up and basically saying blow the fuckers to smithereens.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Fucking hell, Hilary Benn's speech just then was the best I have ever seen in Parliament, possibly in politics full stop. Everyone has to watch it.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

Don't think there's any doubts about the outcome judging by the reaction to Hilary Benn's speech.

[Magic]

Linkage?

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

You can find links to a woman's super nova'd anus but you can't find this? U wat

[Henry]

If all these SNP people are so keen on negotiating with ISIS,

They aren't, and you're better than that.

EDIT: Decent speech by Benn from what I see, but not "best ever", and he's still wrong.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

Question Time tomorrow-

Nicky Morgan, Diane Abbott, Caroline Lucas, Maajid Nawaz and Jill Kirkby.

[Byron]

That's a cracking speech. You could see the fire there, hell almost got me on board.

[Jimmy Floyd]

There's audio up on the speccie, but it's best viewed I think, which will no doubt be up soon. A front bench opposition MP actually showing some leadership and passionately reminding the self-serving twats in the room, on all sides, of the realities of what's at stake. I don't even know if he's right, and nor do you, but the oratory was of a standard you just don't see anymore.

Isabel Hardman says he showed up not just Corbyn but also Cameron, I agree with that.

[Byron]

Question Time tomorrow-

Nicky Morgan, Diane Abbott, Caroline Lucas, Maajid Nawaz and Jill Kirkby.

Just because Harold isn't here;

'LEFT WING BIAS! LEFT WING BIAS! LEFT WING BIAS!'

[Lee]

Benn's speech was very good indeed. His mannerisms are bery similar to his dad's, especially the right arm waving about.

Corbyn's face when he spoke was a picture. What a mess of a leader he is. I don't want to contemplate the size of the Tory majority in 2020 if this bloke remains at the helm.

[Henry]

His actual arguments aren't any different or better than anyone else's. The debate here isn't about whether ISIS or bad or if they should be opposed, but whether airstrikes from the UK are going to do any good. It's a subtle analytical argument, and no amount of powerful rhetoric could or should sway it.

[Lewis]

The clapping though. They should send the clappers to ISIS.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Corbyn's face when he spoke was a picture. What a mess of a leader he is. I don't want to contemplate the size of the Tory majority in 2020 if this bloke remains at the helm.

He looked like he had a mouth full of wasps.

The twitter reaction is quite funny. Anyone vaguely sensible of all hues is applauding it. Corbynistas are calling him a traitor to his family and the cybernats are, as one, pointing out how THE TORIES applauded him, as if that's a bad thing.

[Lee]

Looks as though Benn has swayed a few Labour votes.

[Magic]

I like how he ended his speech describing Islam for what it is.

Oh...oh he was on about ISIS?

[Lee]

Daesh, mate.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The Shadow Chief Whip voting against Corbz. You couldn't make it up.

They're saying 57 Labour MPs possibly voting for strikes.

[Lee]

Bombs to start falling in Syria from British planes tonight then, I guess.

On that, is it likely we've been doing it already anyway?

[Luke Emia]

That's a thumping majority sounds like more than 57... I'm assuming none of the Scots would have voted with the government on principle alone.

[Luke Emia]

Bombs to start falling in Syria from British planes tonight then, I guess.

On that, is it likely we've been doing it already anyway?

I live 10 minutes away from RAF Marham and to say it's been busy the past week or so would be an understatement.

[Jimmy Floyd]

67 in the end. Add the legends from the DUP, subtract a few Tory rebels and the shortbread army.

[Chrissy]

Oh great. Bombing the fuck out of them. That'll work.................. jesus wept there is hardly anything left to bomb as it is.

[Chrissy]

The Shadow Chief Whip voting against Corbz. You couldn't make it up.

They're saying 57 Labour MPs possibly voting for strikes.

I did laugh at that. That's implosion politics there.