The UK Politics Thread [Wot did Jez do now...]

[Yevrah]

I should add that it's a source of disgrace for the Labour party that the bloke who's meant to be lead objector to this racket starts blathering on about wage caps and footballers earning too much money. Fucking footballers. Sweet mother of God.

[Lewis]

If footballers earned less, where would all the money go? It's probably the most socialist major industry going.

[Yevrah]

If footballers earned less, where would all the money go? It's probably the most socialist major industry going.

Absolutely and yet somehow Corbyn gets drawn into discussing it, as if it's on a par with Philip Green's antics.

[Lewis]

But when Our NHS is in crisis... Speaking of which, did you see how Jeremy Hunt making a mint selling his company was reported today? It was very much him making money whilst people die in corridors, as if the two are related.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Hate to quote the Blogpost of Destiny again, but 'corporate looting' is a great term for it.

Nobody minds the fact that people are richer than them, what they mind is when they are richer than them AND skewing the system against them.

[Boydy]

What's the blogpost of destiny?

[Jimmy Floyd]

https://dominiccummings.wordpress.com/2017/01/09/on-the-referendum-21-branching-histories-of-the-2016-referendum-and-the-frogs-before-the-storm-2/

[Spammer]

https://dominiccummings.wordpress.com/2017/01/09/on-the-referendum-21-branching-histories-of-the-2016-referendum-and-the-frogs-before-the-storm-2/

A bloke I'm friends with on Facebook write out a summary of that:


For those of my friends who find the time to really pay attention to Brexit: this blogpost is 20,000 words long, but unnervingly worth reading. Apart from occasionally lapsing into Westminster jargon, it's well written, indeed compelling.

For the less deranged, here's my summary! It's an account of the Brexit campaign by Dominic Cummings, the co-ordinator of the Leave campaign and the person most responsible for the big 350million/NHS lie. It's quite rare you get to read a central figure's thoughts like this so soon (and, as Jonny points out, perhaps a mark of the strange times we're living in that he's posted them).

The post is firm that without the NHS lie, Brexit wouldn't have happened -- which is appalling, but interesting for how we might campaign next.

The only excuses Cummings offers for this huge lie (and lying about Turkish accession) is that the Remain campaign also lied, and that he was properly committed to winning the campaign, unlike the more squeamish figures around him -- which is a measure of his odiousness. Predictably, the post is pompous, self-aggrandising (complete with elaborate false modesty), and full of criticism without substantive self-criticism. Obviously it would be foolish to expect Cummings to tell the truth; but equally he hasn't obviously gained much personally, so far, from Brexit, and doesn't seem too fussed about burning bridges.

Bits and pieces that stuck out to me:

* One section worth reading if you want something bite-sized is called 'An example of a simple, powerful media story that is wrong and contributed to forecasting errors on Brexit – ‘the centre ground’'. Basically, most voters pretty strongly support some things that are characterised by the media as right-wing extremes and some that are characterised as left-wing extremes. Governments are portrayed as centrist but relative to public opinion are often themselves extremist.

* Cummings is convinced that the Brexit campaign only won because of some quite unlikely circumstances (and without any big single explanatory factor). Prominent are: outmanoeuvring the In campaign with big lies in the last month, capitalising on mistakes by Cameron and Osborne (starting with holding the referendum in the first place obviously...), and managing to navigate the self-destructive infighting of Out campaigners and the negative image of Farage.

* Cummings reckons that most In supporters aren't making an economically or philosophically rational decision, but are expressing their own identity politically. This rings true to to me to a large degree -- it's surely true of myself. I'd appreciate seeing more recognition of this home truth on my Facebook wall... (Though it is characteristic of Cummings's writing that he seems blind to people also forming their pro-EU opinions through rational humanism.)

* Cummings makes Westminster politics sound as awful and dysfunctional as _In the Thick of It_ makes it look. Obviously he has an axe to grind, but...

* He argues that Cameron in particular spent most of his Prime Ministership responding to media opinion rather than public opinion; that media opinion is not actually that influential on the public; and that public opinion is very different from media opinion. (I'm not sure how much I buy the idea that media aren't that influential, but it's interesting.)

* He insists that although Gove and Johnson looked gutted when the Brexit vote came in, they were actually jubilant but just didn't want to look like they were dancing on Cameron's grave.

* People are more likely to win campaigns by keeping the maximum number of options open rather than committing to brilliant gambits that, however, limit future options; by focusing intently on the issue in question; and by getting thorough information about pubic opinion.

There must have been other interesting things in here that I've forgotten. If anyone actually reads it, I'd be very grateful for their reminders!

[phonics]

Rumours abound that Dave wants to bounce back by running fucking NATO. As if it wasn't enough to be a shit at the thing he had at least some basic experience of.

[Jimmy Floyd]

* Cummings reckons that most In supporters aren't making an economically or philosophically rational decision, but are expressing their own identity politically. This rings true to to me to a large degree -- it's surely true of myself. I'd appreciate seeing more recognition of this home truth on my Facebook wall... (Though it is characteristic of Cummings's writing that he seems blind to people also forming their pro-EU opinions through rational humanism.)

And none of them even know what the fucking single market is.

[phonics]

I can't listen to Theresa May for more than 30 seconds without feeling like I'm back in religious assembly. She is gratingly dull.

[Lewis]

A bloke I'm friends with on Facebook write out a summary of that:

The SEETHE bubbling away under that. :drool:

[Davgooner]

Don't worry lads I'm sure we'll be on the right end of those trade deals. :vomit:

[phonics]

If there's anything we've shown down the years is that we always come out winners in negotiations with the EU.

[Bernanke]

May: We want tariff free trade with the EU and a customs agreement.
EU: You're not getting that without staying in the single market and accepting the Four Freedoms.
May: Well we don't want that!
EU: Then there's nothing more to be said.
May: ...We want tariff free trade with the EU and a customs agreement.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It doesn't even matter what deal we get or don't get right now. What matters is that we avoid having to go into ever closer/political union with these wankers down the line. And the British people, as they always do when the chips are down, have delivered.

[Disco]

The thing about tariffs is that they work both ways and whatever hyperbole gets spaffed in the media can you really see the remaining members wanting to gimp their own trade that much? Plus as Jimmy points out the benefits of getting out are going to turn up everywhere, not necessarily be measureable in every individual trade deal. Small price to pay and all that.

[GS]

Encourage business and innovation :D Do they send you the PR booklet for the week? Do you realise how devoid of meaning that phrase sounds?

It's like Steve Hilton is in the building.

edit: Unless you'd like to give me a few Tory policies that ENCOURAGE INNOVATION, of course.

Cutting the corporation tax rate to 20% (with further planned cuts to 17%) from 28% under Gordon Brown in 2010 is a start.

Unemployment fell from 8% to under 5% (effectively 'full employment' in modern economic management) in the same period. There were 31.76m in employment in August to October 2016, compared to 28.98m in May 2010 when the Tories came in - an increase of nearly 3m.

In FY2010, corporation tax receipts were 35.5bn compared to 42.1bn in FY2016 - an increase of 18.5% in tax intake.

This arises because private sector investment is more productive than public investment, and lowering tax rates encourages investment and, yes, innovation. It's contributed to significant reduction in unemployment, an increase in tax intake and a strong economic foundation from which other benefits are derived.

Lower headline tax and generous tax relief on research and development has also been a positive for Ireland. They lead (or led) the FDI 'league' in Europe, and companies that were surveyed cited the tax levels and accompanying reliefs as key reasons.

It obviously requires other factors (e.g. strong international links through LHR / LGW, Dublin airport; English speaking populace; already established base of companies and skills), which is why you can't replicate it in fucking Kansas - but it requires government to support the private sector by making it easy for them to invest, expand and not create an environment which appears to be hostile to success.


It's still true (for the most part), and hopefully Tax Haven Brexit goes some way towards proving it.

We should be cutting unnecessary regulation before we start tampering with tax relief.

Targeted R&D reliefs, alongside continued reduction in headline tax levels, should follow.


I've no problem whatsoever with people earning silly money, but when they're paying their staff peanuts while creaming in it then they're taking the fucking piss and we really shouldn't be standing for it as a civilised society.

Which in and of itself is fine until you realise that no other country is going to introduce the necessary legislation. The French socialists introduced a 75% tax rate on higher earners and it yielded less than a quarter of the expected tax intake. This isn't the 19th century - it's a globalised market.

You might get away with forcing them to publish ratios, but I don't see what publicly shaming these companies would achieve other than giving some people a sense that virtue has been signaled. I think the government goes far enough by imposing a minimum wage, albeit at a national level.


May: We want tariff free trade with the EU and a customs agreement.
EU: You're not getting that without staying in the single market and accepting the Four Freedoms.
May: Well we don't want that!
EU: Then there's nothing more to be said.
May: ...We want tariff free trade with the EU and a customs agreement.

If they do that, then we'd fall back on WTO rules. In that event, with no agreement and therefore no requirement to adhere to any 'deal', we'd simply achieve competitiveness by slashing taxes and regulation and sitting as a tax haven on their doorstep. Tariffs aren't overly onerous with WTO rules, and under their rules the EU can't impose harsher tariffs. Tax cuts, alongside our ability to devalue sterling if required, would ensure continued competitiveness whilst causing difficulty for the EU. This would be particularly prevalent if we do start striking proper trade deals outside the customs union.

They don't want West Singapore sitting on their doorstep whilst causing serious difficulty for trade with what will become their biggest market. We'd be able to take steps to ensure competitiveness, whilst member states couldn't owing to the restrictions of single market regulation and the Eurozone.

Barnier has already acknowledged privately that there will need to be some sort of deal with the City to protect the Eurozone as you simply can't replicate the infrastructure and expertise. It's the financial capital of the currency, and they'll require a bespoke deal to ensure its stability.

There are plenty of areas where the UK's hand is strong. It's more interesting now that the Donald is basically accusing the Germans of using the EU as a vehicle to impose their own views on Europe (at least it's not the Wehrmacht this time) and his comments on NATO mean they'll be reluctant to damage strong security cooperation given our services appear (stress appear) to be significantly better than most on the continent.

[phonics]

Cutting the corporation tax rate to 20% (with further planned cuts to 17%) from 28% under Gordon Brown in 2010 is a start.

Unemployment fell from 8% to under 5% (effectively 'full employment' in modern economic management) in the same period. There were 31.76m in employment in August to October 2016, compared to 28.98m in May 2010 when the Tories came in - an increase of nearly 3m.

I'm absolutely bowled over that eight years after the largest financial crash since the Great Depression, unemployment was 3% better than after two years.. What would we have done without them.

None of that megapost has anything whatsoever to do with innovation I notice. Apart from saying businesses making money leads to innovation (which we all know is total bollocks. A publicly traded company is far more likely to invest in stock buybacks than R&D in this climate)

Just say 'Fair cop, I was talking bollocks'. It's quite easy to just admit you were more interested in toeing a party line and so fell into their doublespeak. It's fine.

[Jimmy Floyd]

What I do is stand outside CBI headquarters and bellow 'Come on guys! You can do it!'

[phonics]

Or you could bump a couple of points off their corporation tax if they invest over a % of profits in R&D based in the UK. You could create a funding group to invest in start-ups (they do this for the DOD but nothing else, why?) You could have not shut down the UK Film Council (a money making program) etc. etc. etc.

There's a million of them but instead they've just bumped a couple of points off their mates taxes and gone 'Look how well we've done' while everybody making less than 85 grand a year is still fucked.

edit: Oh I forgot that 2 billion they spent on an NHS IT solution that was so fucked they never implemented it. Sorry. 1 piece of innovation and it was dog shit.

[GS]

I'm absolutely bowled over that eight years after the largest financial crash since the Great Depression, unemployment was 3% better than after two years.. What would we have done without them.

None of that megapost has anything whatsoever to do with innovation I notice.

Sub-5% is effectively full employment. For comparison:

France - 9.9% (Q2, 2016)
Spain - 22.7% (Apr '15)
Italy - 12.4% (Apr '15)
Belgium - 8.5% (Apr '15)
Netherlands - 7.0% (Apr '15)
Portugal - 13.0% (Apr '15)
Ireland - 7.7% (Apr '15)

Germany and the US are both sub 5%, for the sake of balance. Nevertheless, we were uniquely vulnerable to the financial crash owing to Labour's financial policies - they ran a budget deficit to fund current (not capital) expenditure from 2002 onwards and were turning a blind eye to the City whilst relying on their tax revenues.

I actually think Lord Darling did well post disaster, but the "jobs miracle" (not my term) is one of Cameron's few genuine achievements and should be acknowledged as such.

Also, innovation isn't mentioned because what sort of metric do you want to measure it with? The number of copyright patents? It's a term used to describe private sector investment - some initiatives may fail, others may not. They arise by reducing barriers to entry and getting the government out of the way. The public sector is incapable of being innovative because it's public money and can't be pissed away on speculative, high risk business ventures.

Low taxes, low regulation encourages job creation and makes it easier for people to try new things in business. This is the whole point, and you don't achieve that by making it impossible for people to start or expand their business by imposing excessive rules or taking their money off them rather than letting it be ploughed straight back in to help it grow.

[Davgooner]

It doesn't even matter what deal we get or don't get right now. What matters is that we avoid having to go into ever closer/political union with these wankers down the line. And the British people, as they always do when the chips are down, have delivered.

That's meaningless wank Jim.

[phonics]

As for GS' idea of being the new Singapore, fine but then let's nationalise everything while we're at it please.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2O23siXgAEHTUs.jpg:large

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's not. You saw what happened with the Euro because they didn't have central control over fiscal policy. Long term it's either join that, or fuck them off, and we've correctly gone down route B.

If you want route A and voted Remain because of it then fine, but those are the two options.

Money changing hands and 'business' in the next 10 years is irrelevant. Shit happens.

As a society we need to stop worrying about numbers quite so much and start seeing the wood for the trees.

[GS]

It's not. You saw what happened with the Euro because they didn't have central control over fiscal policy. Long term it's either join that, or fuck them off, and we've correctly gone down route B.

If you want route A and voted Remain because of it then fine, but those are the two options.

Money changing hands and 'business' in the next 10 years is irrelevant. Shit happens.

As a society we need to stop worrying about numbers quite so much and see the wood for the trees.

Central control almost certainly meaning German control.

I think the "no status quo" aspect of the vote was completely lost on most people.

[Lewis]

The minute you notice the wood then the entire punditry business (in all walks of life really) collapses.

[Lewis]

Tim 'Timmy' Farron has written belting whinge (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/17/leave-remain-theresa-may-single-market-brexit-liberal-democrats?CMP=twt_gu) on the 'theft of democracy'. Elsewhere, Polly Toynbee (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/17/theresa-may-brexit-speech-prime-minister-britain) sez that 'Enoch Powell from the grave has finally won'. He always does, love. He always does.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Literally everything Tim Farron says and does is a variation on the 'Lib Dems Winning Here' bar charts.

Christ it's not been a good run for these people has it. From the moment the bubble burst on Cleggmania, it's been basically wall to wall bad news for metropolitan liberals. For a good reason, their lives are built on vacuous waffle and self-congratulation.

[GS]

True to form, there's a hashtag trending on Twitter, which will surely be enough to change the political winds in their favour.

It's #NoWayMay, if you think I'm making it up.

[Lewis]

It's not over until Ian Dunt hangs himself.

[GS]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2ZRHAEWQAIeZRF.png

Unlucky, lads.

[Shindig]

If we tried to keep single market status, we've not really left. It'd be like a divorce where one personleaves, keeps all their stuff there and returns every night for a kip and a fuck.

[Lewis]

'No, it has to be... Think SEETHING. We want to annoy everybody.'
'Oh. I know...'

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2Z-sPzWQAEGr-j.jpg

[GS]

She's done well enough here, because nobody can really claim she hasn't provided any clarity. That Sky News poll had some other findings, which are quite good:

http://e3.365dm.com/17/01/206x155/6b4a20c9b302c13f75e5751bd9ab9a13d4e71f80bcc2906f2d ba4b67b4c50e2c_3872358.jpg?20170117192829

Some 44% think she has a clear plan, up 10 percentage points since the question was last asked in October. Meanwhile 42% think she has not got a clear Brexit strategy, down seven points.

http://e3.365dm.com/17/01/206x155/62e0e731c9898d80551b41c1a624c0b067d1daefd7b39e2b7a beff62d2d0cf2e_3872351.jpg?20170117192629

Just over half (51%) now trust Mrs May to get the best possible deal in negotiations with the EU, up five points since October, while the proportion who do not trust her is down three points to 36%.

The best finding, however, is this:

Londoners oppose exiting the EU single market (52% to 33%), are unconvinced that Mrs May has a clear plan (58% to 30%) and do not trust her to get the best possible Brexit deal (48% to 31%) - all in stark contrast to the rest of the UK.

Seething.

[Shindig]

You'd imagine she should have a clear plan, given that this is the ONE THING politics has been focused on since the vote came in ... after, like, the leadership fuckery-do.

[phonics]

In honour of The God Emperor being anointed on Friday, I'm asserting authoritarian rule where if the majority of a users posts over the course of a month are just reporting poll numbers, they're banned for the next month.

[Lewis]

Remember when Fox was little more than a poll bot? And then everyone started praising him, and he got too big for his ginger boots.

[GS]

I assume it's disheartening to find yourself in the minority on seemingly everything.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's not over until Ian Dunt hangs himself.

I haven't seen 'David Schneider' retweeted into my timeline much recently, has anyone checked on him?

[igor_balis]

David Schneider is the least funny person on the internet.

[phonics]

http://i.imgur.com/GjiBsJW.png

Those trousers :D I know people have been referring to this whole thing as a circus but I think the clown trousers are a bit much Theresa.

[Magic]

Make them red and they are basically my jammie bottoms.

[phonics]

I'm sure both are equally crusty through cum stains too.

[Lewis]

I haven't seen 'David Schneider' retweeted into my timeline much recently, has anyone checked on him?

There is clearly money to be made writing endless shite on the whole thing, and the model should be all of those 'Analysts' that popped up between 2012 and 2014 speculating on Syria (except they all get Qatari think tank money which I'm not sure that Tim Farron could match).

[phonics]

My favourite current Twitter experts are the 'Russian Analysts' who don't seem to even speak Russian let alone know anything that you couldn't learn from a Year 9 History Textbook.

edit: Lewis, even though it's produced by a bunch of BERNIEBROS, you'd love Chapo Trap House. Give it a spin.

[Lewis]

Pro-Assad/Iran/Russia Twitter does a great line in annoying all of these people, who then just go 'lol Kremlin trolls' and carry on spouting wank.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Twitter/the internet as a liberal echo chamber has probably played a large part in torching their parade, as they now have absolutely no awareness of the world around them as opposed to the traditional very little.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Corbz: 'It's not so much the Iron Lady as the irony lady'

That doesn't work, Jeremy. In fact it's fucking spastic.

[Offshore Toon]

Watching both of them act out their prerehersed lines is cringe-inducing. Theresa May reminded me of The Rock with one of her pauses.

[7om]

I wonder if she could do the eyebrow. That'd be great.

[Disco]

No way could she sell a stunner like the Rock.

[Magic]

Corbz: 'It's not so much the Iron Lady as the irony lady'

That doesn't work, Jeremy. In fact it's fucking spastic.

He didn't say that, surely.

[Lewis]

There is a Labour Party broadcast on BBC1 about Our NHS, moaning about the bus slogan as if anybody cares, and promising to spend more money on it. Right. Any other reasons to vote for Jeremy Corbyn?

[Jimmy Floyd]

Every time I see either Guy Verhofstadt or Jean-Claude Juncker on telly, all hints of concern about the economic impact are wiped away.

[Lewis]

821819701886091264

:cool:

[phonics]

Now that's small time. In fact, if we'd had such a reply to a post on here we'd call it SEETHING.

[GS]

Perhaps, but only by those who don't recognise it for what it actually is - a play on one of their more famous covers of the past:

http://www.classicheadlines.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Kinnock-lightbulb.jog_.jpg

[Jimmy Floyd]

Trying to defeat the Germans with humour is a bold strategy to say the least.

[Lewis]

Martin McGuinness has been replaced by a woman, and she has just given a Nicola Sturgeon-like speech about the mandate to remain in Europe. If it really did threaten the peace process, would the onus not be on the likes of Sinn Fein to wind it in?

[Jimmy Floyd]

I just don't get those arguments. There's also a MANDATE for Brixton to stay in the EU, and a MANDATE for Kiko's flat to stay in the EU, although his neighbour has a MANDATE to leave.

I've recently become acquainted to The New European newspaper. Goodness me.

[Lewis]

Speaking of which. Arron 'World's Chippiest Man' Banks' new 'Westmonster' venture is pretty tragic. It's like Breitbart, except for... Oh, they have a British section, and have done for three years.

[GS]

Martin McGuinness has been replaced by a woman, and she has just given a Nicola Sturgeon-like speech about the mandate to remain in Europe. If it really did threaten the peace process, would the onus not be on the likes of Sinn Fein to wind it in?

Sinn Fein and the SNP exist to destroy the union. What they do, they do because it believes it will help destroy the union. What they forbear, they forbear because they believe it will not help to destroy the union.

That's literally all it is. The peace process isn't in any serious danger, so they have flexibility to spin a narrative that suggests we're being shafted. Support for reunification had a whole nine point swing post EU referendum and is still 63-22 for the union, so I think we're fine.

[Magic]

Martin McGuinness has been replaced by a woman, and she has just given a Nicola Sturgeon-like speech about the mandate to remain in Europe. If it really did threaten the peace process, would the onus not be on the likes of Sinn Fein to wind it in?

As long as she has that full face of make up I'd probably go wild on her.

[GS]

It turns out this Trident failure was nothing to do with the UK (the submarine, which is what the vote for renewal was on) but rather the navigation of the missile. The submarine commander just sticks co-ordinates into a computer. It's American proprietary technology, and they asked us not to disclose it because what possible benefit would you derive from doing so.

Still, it's good to see that the synthetic outrage you would expect didn't transpire after the failed test was disclosed. It's not like the Mirror have denounced it as a DISASTER over the front page.

[John Arne]

I really don't understand the issue with the Trident test failure. A test happened, there was a failure, presumably lessons were learnt... and of course they aren't going to make it public. A complete none issue as far as I can see.

[Raoul Duke]

I think the papers are gearing up to get rid of May. Seems like they're looking for leverage to make that happen.

[Magic]

I really don't understand the issue with the Trident test failure. A test happened, there was a failure, presumably lessons were learnt... and of course they aren't going to make it public. A complete none issue as far as I can see.

Because we should have scrapped it and spent it on agency nurses and benefit frauds.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I think the papers are gearing up to get rid of May. Seems like they're looking for leverage to make that happen.

It'll take them 2-3 years minimum. No threat to her from within politics.

[GS]

I think the papers are gearing up to get rid of May. Seems like they're looking for leverage to make that happen.

The Mirror and the Guardian, perhaps. The others are firmly on board the Brexit train (or at least appear to have reconciled themselves to it), and she's giving them the hard Brexit (or Brexit as non wankers call it) they're after. They won't want rid of her.

[Magic]

Lol so Parliament will vote whether to trigger article 50. I bet they vote against it, and the only thing triggered will be half the population.

[Byron]

Nah. Corbyn has said the result should be respected and the Tories will vote for it. I suspect it's merely them stating that they want to ensure we don't get shafted by whatever deal we get.

It'll probably just be the porridge munchers that vote against it.

[GS]

Lol so Parliament will vote whether to trigger article 50. I bet they vote against it, and the only thing triggered will be half the population.

The Commons won't block it. The Lords could try, but I suspect they wouldn't dare. You might get one or two who try, but there's almost no chance it doesn't go through.

The big one is the devolved administrations being told to do one. If anything, the net benefit of the court case is with the UK government because of it. They have legal cover for telling the Scottish Nats to fuck off.

[phonics]

Can't believe they managed to find enough openly gay fencers to vote it through. I'm having an Enemies of the People march next week if you'd like to join.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Absolutely no way the government will lose a vote. Anyone who opposes it on any grounds other than the timing not being right is essentially saying that the referendum result should be ignored, which is both anti-democratic (Tim Farron voted to have the referendum!) and a one way ticket to the end of their political career.

[Magic]

Look at all this elitest smugness and assumption. Don't fucking tell me what will and won't happen. It's getting blocked, and we're taking to the streets.

[GS]

Absolutely no way the government will lose a vote. Anyone who opposes it on any grounds other than the timing not being right is essentially saying that the referendum result should be ignored, which is both anti-democratic (Tim Farron voted to have the referendum!) and a one way ticket to the end of their political career.

There's still something like 48% of remain voters who want to stop it happening, and the liberals have doubled their support amongst the remain crowd. Presumably because they're unashamedly anti democracy.

Not that it really matters. They have nine MPs, for fuck sake. The mystery is why Tim Farron gets so much coverage. It must be for the sake of variety.

[phonics]

While I concede that Tim Farron is terribly dull (good work on the Milwall CPO though) Nigel Farage has never held public office and UKIP have one MP.

[Jimmy Floyd]

UKIP also get too much coverage. If you apportioned coverage correctly, it would be about 60% Tories, 25% Labour and the rest jocks and others, but news editors go for stories rather than that.

Farage and Banks are so useless they were almost Remain agents in the referendum. Farage helped the referendum to be called in the first place, but to give him any credit for the result is nonsensical.

[phonics]

I saw a Twitter reply to Andrew Neil from an @Westmonster and I assumed it was Aaron Banks' new project that Lewis mentioned above. Turns out it's just some leftist anti-Iraq war blogger from the mid 00s. Good brand choice there, Aaron.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Having said all that, I was talking to my super secret source in the Labour party last night and he thinks UKIP are going to absolutely piss the Stoke by-election (and challenge in Copeland).

[Magic]

You, then?

EDIT: FFS Jim.

[phonics]

I'm far closer to a 'meme magician' than a 'blogger' if we're going to go with the hip terms.

[Magic]

I'd say you're more of a Twitter twat.

[phonics]

I'm alt-Twat.

[GS]

Having said all that, I was talking to my super secret source in the Labour party last night and he thinks UKIP are going to absolutely piss the Stoke by-election (and challenge in Copeland).

If they can't win there given the circumstances, they might as well close the party down.

[Lewis]

Labour would vote against it if they could get away with it (and you can see why Team Timmy might want to), but aren't two thirds of their MPs sitting in heavy leave constituencies? Not that I necessarily think that they would all switch to UKIP in the way that the bitter Scotch have, but why even risk it?

[GS]

Labour would vote against it if they could get away with it (and you can see why Team Timmy might want to), but aren't two thirds of their MPs sitting in heavy leave constituencies? Not that I necessarily think that they would all switch to UKIP in the way that the bitter Scotch have, but why even risk it?

That's exactly why they can't risk it. I know people go on about the gap between the establishment and the people, but there really is no better illustration then the Labour heartlands. They wouldn't be voting for them if it wasn't "legacy" voting. Hard to see Tristram Hunt down the mines.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Peter Mandelson fixing it for Tristram Hunt to become MP for Stoke-on-Trent Central, and the subsequent events, is about the most New Labour thing ever. Well, Jamie's Italian aside.

[niko_cee]

It would be suicidal from a remain perspective to vote down (or even heavily obstruct) an Article 50 vote.

Blocked in the commons, immediate general election with a Conservative landslide. Blocked in the lords, immediate general election, conservative landslide, abolition of the Lords. Neither outcome is at all beneficial to the remain cause.

[Raoul Duke]

It'll take them 2-3 years minimum. No threat to her from within politics.

Explain like I'm five: when Davey C resigned and May stepped up, how long does she have a legit right to remain in charge?

[Boydy]

Till 2020, isn't it? The fixed term parliament act made parliaments five years long.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Explain like I'm five: when Davey C resigned and May stepped up, how long does she have a legit right to remain in charge?

Until whenever, she's just as legitimate a Prime Minister as any of the other elected MPs would be should they be able to form a government.

Gordon Brown managed three years under those circumstances, so did Callaghan, Major two years, it must have happened countless other times.

[Lewis]

Wee Jimmy Krankie thrashing around is pretty lol. Give it up, son.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

Didn't you hear? A second referendum is even more even more likely now...

[GS]

Explain like I'm five: when Davey C resigned and May stepped up, how long does she have a legit right to remain in charge?

The only time in the post-war period that any party bothered to call an election after a change of leadership was Eden in 1955, but they were due one within the year anyway. Four of the last five PMs who've won an election for their party (Major in 1992 being the exception, but he'd taken over from Thatcher less than a year and a half before) have handed the leadership over during the parliament without going back to the country, so it's just another synthetic excuse for whinging.

[GS]

Didn't you hear? A second referendum is even more even more likely now...

I was reading some polling analysis the other week which suggests that Sturgeon's rhetoric is actually proving counter-productive. She's basically talking to the 27% of people who voted both Yes and Remain, so she's alienating the Leave crowd rightly and the polls simply aren't moving at all in their direction. There's a certain enjoyment to be derived from May basically ignoring her. Cameron would probably have bottled it and went down the appeasement line.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

I was reading some polling analysis the other week which suggests that Sturgeon's rhetoric is actually proving counter-productive. She's basically talking to the 27% of people who voted both Yes and Remain, so she's alienating the Leave crowd rightly and the polls simply aren't moving at all in their direction. There's a certain enjoyment to be derived from May basically ignoring her. Cameron would probably have bottled it and went down the appeasement line.

Wouldn't be surprised, she seems to be actively pissing off more and more people with every passing day who aren't fully paid-up SNP. Sooner or later she's going to have to put up or shut up and I hope it's soon because the massive chip on the shoulder is one hell of a ball ache to be subjected to.

[GS]

Wouldn't be surprised, she seems to be actively pissing off more and more people with every passing day who aren't fully paid-up SNP. Sooner or later she's going to have to put up or shut up and I hope it's soon because the massive chip on the shoulder is one hell of a ball ache to be subjected to.

What's the general view in Scotland on all of this, objectively speaking?

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

What's the general view in Scotland on all of this, objectively speaking?

Well I think we've reached peak SNP. As far as people I actually know go, I think there's only one who would vote differently in another referendum and it would be to remain in the UK rather than leave. A lot of 'yessers' and SNP voters I know were also for leaving the EU though, despite what the SNP might like to think. Not sure what those people expect though as fully independent from the UK and EU is never on the cards.

Really don't see where the extra numbers would come from for them to win another referendum. In the immediate aftermath of the brexit vote there was a lot of huff and puff about it but I'd have thought the economic argument has been torpedoed thoroughly enough to prevent enough former no's from changing their minds.

[Lewis]

It would be interesting to see how the government approached another referendum campaign. Like you say, the economic argument is lol; but if you start lining up banks and corporations to relentlessly hammer the electorate with that (again) then it could blow up in your face. Not simply because people would be less inclined than ever to listen to it (although it would be lol to see the SNP dismiss it all with reference to the supposedly disastrous Europe vote), but you would waste a chance to push actual reasons.

[Alan Shearer The 2nd]

Ugh the thought of it all again. With the oil being so poor now I suppose a lot of the Scottish Government's own figures would do a lot of the talking. The zealots will always believe but they're not the ones needing convinced.

Do you think there's a chance May will just tell her to piss off? It'd be good for a laugh but that'd get the die-hards absolutely rabid and leave room for it in the future. If they have another one and they lose again that's it goosed for decades.

[Spikey M]

At this point England should just be rebuilding the wall.

[niko_cee]

And making Scotland pay for it!

[Spikey M]

obvs.

[Jimmy Floyd]

One blast Protestants, two blasts Catholics, three blasts Nationalists.

[GS]

PMQs was embarrassingly one sided today. May seems to be getting the hang of it.

[GS]

824364633825939456

824363289698254854

824361326348746756

Tim Farron must be in tears.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Once they get exposed to THE NEGOTIATIONS, those numbers will go up even further. Up yours, Delors.

[Lewis]

What was that fourteen per cent of remain voters playing at?

[GS]

What was that fourteen per cent of remain voters playing at?

People who bottled it on the day and regretted it, you'd expect. People like Floyd if he'd voted remain on the day.

That'll go higher in the next few months, you'd think.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I never worked out where the theories of people regretting their Leave vote came from. There was never any evidence for it whatsoever.

[GS]

It's not supported by any poll at all. It's more something the remain crowd cling to in the hope it might afford a pretext for reversing the result.

I think even the first polls after the result had 3% leavers regretting it and 4% remain wishing they'd voted the other way.

Still, it suits Farron et al to pretend otherwise.

[ItalAussie]

Between Brexit likely losing access to European funding (ERC, EPSRC, etc.), and Trump's cabinet pick asking "whether they should fund research at all", it's actually a rather good time to be an academic research scientist in Australia. There's been quite a lot of talk about researchers considering moves to somewhere where grant money may still exist in five years.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's always a good time to be an academic in Australia.

[GS]

Between Brexit likely losing access to European funding (ERC, EPSRC, etc.), and Trump's cabinet pick asking "whether they should fund research at all", it's actually a rather good time to be an academic research scientist in Australia. There's been quite a lot of talk about researchers considering moves to somewhere where grant money may still exist in five years.

The UK has six universities in the top 25 compared to the EU's zero. Ultimately it's our money to begin with, so there is no reason to think that you're suddenly going to have academics walking around in rags, pawning their textbooks to afford an easyJet flight. The American universities seem to be doing okay without the EU, so I'm sure we'll be fine.

[Lewis]

I would merge the science funding bodies with the arts councils to see how scientists like having to make everything about class and/or gender to attract funding.

[Yevrah]

Tim Farron's take on all this really is appalling. He didn't like the result and is trying to change it while claiming he's in favour of democracy.

[John]

I never worked out where the theories of people regretting their Leave vote came from. There was never any evidence for it whatsoever.

I reckon it's based largely on that girl the news found in tears the next morning because she thought her 'leave' ballot was a protest vote for an impossible outcome. They hit the jackpot with her. Thick and regretting it.

[Boydy]

I would merge the science funding bodies with the arts councils to see how scientists like having to make everything about class and/or gender to attract funding.
Even doing that didn't get me any funding. :(

[Pepe]

We already have to make everything about climate change.

[ItalAussie]

The UK has six universities in the top 25 compared to the EU's zero. Ultimately it's our money to begin with, so there is no reason to think that you're suddenly going to have academics walking around in rags, pawning their textbooks to afford an easyJet flight. The American universities seem to be doing okay without the EU, so I'm sure we'll be fine.
That's just buzzwords and insisting for insistence's sake. The universities themselves are openly acknowledging that UK universities are going to find the next this process incredibly difficult. I'd almost guess that no sector is going to cop it harder. One of the reason that British universities have done well is that they've taken in a disproportionate amount of ERC funding, which obviously won't continue. Grant funding is the lifeblood of any research university, be it the ARC in Australia, the NSF in the UK, or the ERC. It's not going to kill the university system or anything, but it's going to hurt them. Like I said, the upside for me is that Australia is already looking like a better option for high level researchers than it was before.

There's going to be a lot less money available to British researchers. Everyone knows it, and they're already bracing themselves to try and deal with it. This isn't some hypothetical problem. You just have to google ERC+Brexit and pick any result from the first dozen pages to see it for yourself. Now, you may think it's worth it, but to claim it won't be an issue is all very Trumpian.

[ItalAussie]

I would merge the science funding bodies with the arts councils to see how scientists like having to make everything about class and/or gender to attract funding.

Arts funding is drying up everywhere. Australia and the US too. It's a tough time to be in the humanities in general.

[Raoul Duke]

Oh, the humanities!

[GS]

That's just buzzwords and insisting for insistence's sake. The universities themselves are openly acknowledging that UK universities are going to find the next this process incredibly difficult. I'd almost guess that no sector is going to cop it harder. One of the reason that British universities have done well is that they've taken in a disproportionate amount of ERC funding, which obviously won't continue. Grant funding is the lifeblood of any research university, be it the ARC in Australia, the NSF in the UK, or the ERC. It's not going to kill the university system or anything, but it's going to hurt them. Like I said, the upside for me is that Australia is already looking like a better option for high level researchers than it was before.

There's going to be a lot less money available to British researchers. Everyone knows it, and they're already bracing themselves to try and deal with it. This isn't some hypothetical problem. You just have to google ERC+Brexit and pick any result from the first dozen pages to see it for yourself. Now, you may think it's worth it, but to claim it won't be an issue is all very Trumpian.

I'm afraid your view, as outlined, is somewhat typical of the aggrieved remain crowd. I half-suspect that those who are descrying the impending misery of the post-Brexit world would be amenable to it happening, if only so they're not deprived of the opportunity to be smug about it.

It benefits the UK government not a jot to deprive universities of funding - they'll be very keen to demonstrate that the UK has become, or is perceived as becoming, "global" because it's one of the few discernible measures by which they can counter the prevailing notion that the vote has arisen because of a long-postponed nationalistic spasm. One of the ways (one being the operative word) to do this is to continue having world class universities which lead the way in research, and ensuring that world class talent (there's another buzzword for you) can come here.

Further, your claim that we've "taken in a disproportionate amount of ERC funding" is irrelevant. I'll repeat again - it was our fucking money to begin with. It hasn't been redirected from the oft-cited French farmers, it's going out of the Treasury and then back into the country where the ERC think fit. Maybe you're happy with that system, but fuck that.

Ultimately, it's in our own interest to ensure high funding levels continue. That said, I fully accept that there may be some questions on access to EU-wide programmes. Obviously. I just happen to think that, somehow, someway, we'll cope without them.

[Lewis]

Arts funding is drying up everywhere. Australia and the US too. It's a tough time to be in the humanities in general.

It's never been a better time to be a pointless administrator though. And isn't that what it's really all about?

[ItalAussie]

Ultimately, it's in our own interest to ensure high funding levels continue. That said, I fully accept that there may be some questions on access to EU-wide programmes. Obviously. I just happen to think that, somehow, someway, we'll cope without them.
You'll cope. The universities aren't going to disappear. But they aren't going to maintain the same quality of staffing or research output, and those rankings you mentioned before are going to reflect that in time. Oxford and Cambridge will get by, but it's going to be struggle street once you get past that layer. This isn't hypothesising, either; it's already happening. The universities are already trying to make plans on how they're going to get by on drastically reduced grant funding, so nobody's even remotely expecting the UK to make up what's been lost.

So you're welcome to talk in hypotheticals, but the actual situation "on the ground" is not positive. Again, I have no investment in this, being as my funding sources are all safe. But it's just something worth noting that wasn't talked about much at any stage. Maybe life will be all roses and orgasms everywhere else, but UK-led research is definitely taking a hit out of the new world order. It may, however, be obscured by the fact that US-led research could be on the verge of taking an even bigger hit. Oz seems safe though, so huzzah for me!

[ItalAussie]

It's never been a better time to be a pointless administrator though. And isn't that what it's really all about?
God, it does seem like the life. A small part of me just wants to do my job well so that I can go for a cushy VC position in 30 years. Then I can just restructure things every eighteen months, tick off CPIs, and be bitterly hated by everyone below me on the pyramid.

[Lewis]

I'll be the Alumni Relations Manager. Update your e-mailing list, put a buffet on twice a year... Thirty grand a year thanks mate.

It's not unthinkable that the universities will have shat the bed with those plans, assuming (like every other twat-packed institution across the land) that the sky was going to fall in, so I would give it a few years and see whether all of our German professors have moved to Spain or not.

[ItalAussie]

When I'm in charge, you'll be my first hire. I'd have Jimmy as the Student Relations manager, just because it'd be hilarious.

I was back at Oxford recently, and even those guys are shifting in their seats a little bit nervously. In fairness, it's been many years since they've had to stress over where the next bottle of port is coming from. That said, it's the universities that can't rely on the "Oxbridge cachet" but have a record of drawing in significant funding in the past - Manchester, Bristol, the London mafia, etc. - that are going to find themselves living in interesting times.

[Boydy]

You'll cope. The universities aren't going to disappear. But they aren't going to maintain the same quality of staffing or research output, and those rankings you mentioned before are going to reflect that in time. Oxford and Cambridge will get by, but it's going to be struggle street once you get past that layer. This isn't hypothesising, either; it's already happening. The universities are already trying to make plans on how they're going to get by on drastically reduced grant funding, so nobody's even remotely expecting the UK to make up what's been lost.

So you're welcome to talk in hypotheticals, but the actual situation "on the ground" is not positive. Again, I have no investment in this, being as my funding sources are all safe. But it's just something worth noting that wasn't talked about much at any stage. Maybe life will be all roses and orgasms everywhere else, but UK-led research is definitely taking a hit out of the new world order. It may, however, be obscured by the fact that US-led research could be on the verge of taking an even bigger hit. Oz seems safe though, so huzzah for me!

Good! We've had enough of bloody 'experts'.

[phonics]

824911404637515777

http://i.giphy.com/6mZGzF0G8CZTG.gif

[Jimmy Floyd]

I fucking love Jeremy.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I don't understand all these Labour people resigning over article 50. Are they saying it should not be triggered? Why did they all vote to have a referendum if they weren't going to abide by the result? At least the jocks are consistent.

[Boydy]

Yeah, I don't know what they're playing at.

[niko_cee]

They're lost in the abyss of internal wrangling.

[Byron]

That said, I was reading Facebook and Clive Lewis (MP for Norwich South) was having to seriously defend himself from a load of idiots stating 'our constituency voted Remain so you sould vote against Article 50!111!'

They couldn't quite get their head around the logic that it's not a result he wanted, but it's a nationwide result he should abide by.

However, I do agree with the logic that you should vote against Article 50 if it's not the right deal. Brexit will still pass, politicians don't vote to lose their seat at the next election after all (unless you're SNP it seems) but May can't be given a blank cheque to simply get whatever half arsed deal she gets. The EU needs us as much as we need them, so they should be reaonable enough to at least negotiate.

[Shindig]

But if the EU go soft on us, more nations might see it as a precedent to leave.

[Spikey M]

Old Terry May is in Turkey to discuss a trade deal. That'll learn 'em.

[GS]

That said, I was reading Facebook and Clive Lewis (MP for Norwich South) was having to seriously defend himself from a load of idiots stating 'our constituency voted Remain so you sould vote against Article 50!111!'

They couldn't quite get their head around the logic that it's not a result he wanted, but it's a nationwide result he should abide by.

However, I do agree with the logic that you should vote against Article 50 if it's not the right deal. Brexit will still pass, politicians don't vote to lose their seat at the next election after all (unless you're SNP it seems) but May can't be given a blank cheque to simply get whatever half arsed deal she gets. The EU needs us as much as we need them, so they should be reaonable enough to at least negotiate.

I think you've got the issues confused. Voting for or against Article 50 is simply giving the government authority to issue the EU notification that we're going to leave and 'starting the gun', if you will, as per existing treaty obligations. All parties should be voting for this in recognition of the referendum result. If they, as individuals, voted against the referendum itself in parliament, and vote against Article 50 now, then fine. At least it's consistent. However, voting for the referendum in parliament and then against invoking Article 50 because the referendum went the 'wrong way' is a cunt's trick and they will hopefully be hammered in the next election.

In terms of negotiating thereafter, that's the government's responsibility and not parliament. Parliament can scrutinise certainly, but it's the executive branch's job to negotiate foreign treaties (as this will be). Parliament can then vote on them at the end, but at that stage it'll be a choice between accepting the deal and reverting to WTO rules / having no deal at all. Parliament has no role in this beyond legislating and scrutinising. It can have votes, but they aren't binding unless it's on a legislative matter. Ergo much of this posturing from Hilary Benn et al about 'parliament' is a gigantic waste of time. They've also co-opted the term 'parliamentary sovereignty' to try and pretend it means parliament running things, rather than what it actually means which is parliament having the power to legislate on all matters pertaining to the realm (which it can't presently do under the 1972 Act).

I think the constitutional position here is little understood. Or perhaps I'd be better saying is being wilfully misrepresented by certain political figures to try and advance their (anti-democratic) agenda and block it / water it down as far as possible.

[Lewis]

During my last few days in Norwich I watched Owen Jones talk Clive Lewis (then the local candidate) up as a future Labour leader. With the honourable exceptions of Jezza himself and Diane Abbott, the bloke must be the biggest clown in the party.

[Jimmy Floyd]

They're absolutely gagging for an ethnic minority leader. How do you think Sadiq Khan has been overpromoted as far as he has. I'm convinced Umunna would have beaten Corbyn in 2015 simply because he is black.

[Lewis]

The well-drilled Green lobby donned the little twat shitless when he said there should be a Labour/Green pact. Every question was asking him why he thought Labour didn't just deserve to die, and who he thought he was kidding trying to fob them off with free runs in Brighton and Bristol.

'Heh, you know I'm not Tony Blair's biggest...'
*autistic screeching*

[Boydy]

At least Clive Lewis is a actually working class. Chukka was just a posh little wanker.

[Jimmy Floyd]

David Lammy is better than all of them, not that it makes him good, but still.

I'm now reading 'All Out War' and it really does portray almost all current MPs as complete self-serving cunts.

[GS]

Chuka is fucking awful. When he lost out on the chair for the home select committee, he got his mates to put it about that the Tories had sabotaged him lest he use it as a platform for a leadership bid, a Blairist revival, and a landslide in 2020. Apparently most in Labour just think he's a bit of a wanker.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I still want to know why he BOTTLED that leadership election.

[Boydy]

Cause he's gay.

[Lewis]

That poor woman he roped into it as his beard (blonde as well, because his research will have been a quick Google of 'black man white woman') probably pulled the plug when her actual boyfriend started asking why journalists kept coming round.

[GS]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38783852

I'll wager he had absolutely no idea what was going on.

[niko_cee]

The face on the second chap along is classic. THE HORROR!

[Spammer]

I still want to know why he BOTTLED that leadership election.

My mate works in politics down there and reckons the inside scoop is that he's been to lots of orgies and shit, which almost certainly come about if the press dug deep enough.

You'd think they'd report it anyway with it being such a decent story, but there we are.

[GS]

You'll cope. The universities aren't going to disappear. But they aren't going to maintain the same quality of staffing or research output, and those rankings you mentioned before are going to reflect that in time. Oxford and Cambridge will get by, but it's going to be struggle street once you get past that layer. This isn't hypothesising, either; it's already happening. The universities are already trying to make plans on how they're going to get by on drastically reduced grant funding, so nobody's even remotely expecting the UK to make up what's been lost.

So you're welcome to talk in hypotheticals, but the actual situation "on the ground" is not positive. Again, I have no investment in this, being as my funding sources are all safe. But it's just something worth noting that wasn't talked about much at any stage. Maybe life will be all roses and orgasms everywhere else, but UK-led research is definitely taking a hit out of the new world order. It may, however, be obscured by the fact that US-led research could be on the verge of taking an even bigger hit. Oz seems safe though, so huzzah for me!

With perfect timing, Novo Nordisk are investing £115m in a new science research centre. At Oxford, no less. We'll continue to compete because the infrastructure already exists, so I would suggest that, after a period of acclimatisation, we'll do rather well. We certainly shouldn't be adversely affected by the Europeans no longer directing our research for us. Investments of this nature just hammer the point home.

#despitebrexit

[ItalAussie]

I specifically singled out Oxbridge as the universities that were going to do fine no matter what happened. They can trade off names and contacts in a way that maybe a half dozen universities in the world can.

Come on, man, this is my own industry. I can read the winds. Everyone's running a little scared, and nobody believes that they're going to have access to the same level of funding. The EU is far from flawless, but it had a fantastic and effective setup for obtaining and distributing scientific grants on a large scale.

There's still good people in the UK system who aren't going to vanish overnight, so the bottom's not going to drop out, but grant money is grant money. The best scientists will always follow the grants.

Interestingly on the US side, a lot of highly talented scientists and mathematicians come out of Iran, which seems to have a fantastic undergrad system, so countries who haven't just instituted travel bans on Iranians have just perked their ears up a little at the possibility of high calibre grad students becoming available. :D

[GS]

I specifically singled out Oxbridge as the universities that were going to do fine no matter what happened. They can trade off names and contacts in a way that maybe a half dozen universities in the world can.

Come on, man, this is my own industry. I can read the winds. Everyone's running a little scared, and nobody believes that they're going to have access to the same level of funding. The EU is far from flawless, but it had a fantastic and effective setup for obtaining and distributing scientific grants on a large scale.

There's still good people in the UK system who aren't going to vanish overnight, so the bottom's not going to drop out, but grant money is grant money. The best scientists will always follow the grants.

Interestingly on the US side, a lot of highly talented scientists and mathematicians come out of Iran, which seems to have a fantastic undergrad system, so countries who haven't just instituted travel bans on Iranians have just perked their ears up a little at the possibility of high calibre grad students becoming available. :D

Distributing scientific grants based on taking UK money and then deciding where it goes on our behalf. Nobody likes uncertainty, I understand that, but it seems marvelously premature to shit the bed.

One of the ways we'll be able to establish this global Britain brand (fucking hell) will be through R&D, although it should obviously be directed towards areas of actual consequence.

I'll return to the point again. The universities appear to be ridden with a certain type of world view. Brexit challenges that world view, and there'll be a not insignificant number of them who would almost welcome dreadful news in order to prove their point. Such people shouldn't be humoured.

[Lewis]

lol at the 'devolved regions' kicking off ahead of meeting Theresa May. I particularly like Sinn Fein and their 'reasonable and achievable objective of the north being designated special status within the EU'. The snatch squad must be lurking outside the Spanish Royal Stables as we speak.

[GS]

lol at the 'devolved regions' kicking off ahead of meeting Theresa May. I particularly like Sinn Fein and their 'reasonable and achievable objective of the north being designated special status within the EU'. The snatch squad must be lurking outside the Spanish Royal Stables as we speak.

The Welsh don't have a leg to stand on. The shinners and the nats are looking at adverse polling for their pet constitutional issues and manufacturing a grievance to keep it relevant. It'd be more helpful if she just told them to fuck off, frankly. It's a reserved issue, lads.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Are the taffs actually kicking off even though the men and womenfolk of the valleys voted Leave? Surely not.

The SNP are a long way past the point of crying wolf, it's got to the point where no one listens or cares what they think.

[GS]

Everybody knows the nats will say the deal isn't good enough, so there's literally no point trying to keep them happy.

I see they're thinking of binning off EU membership as a key feature of an "independent Scotland", which would be some fucking effort. Literally everything can and will be sacrificed at the altar of independence.

It's a shame that nat crowd deserted the field on here after the referendum. It'd be interesting to see how they justify a vote to leave the EU being the pretext for another referendum whilst at the same time having a policy not to rejoin it.

[niko_cee]

If anything it's probably more logically consistent to not want to be part of either the UK or the EU, although, as you say, that means losing the trigger mechanism for another referendum (I doubt they seriously want one anyway).

[Lewis]

Dominic Cummings is back (https://dominiccummings.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/20170130-referendum-22-numbers.pdf) with some figures, and the lol (seriously lol) Matthew Goodwin feud continues.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I wonder what Cummings would have done in the war, or the 1950s. Something utterly mental, I imagine.

[Lewis]

It's a toss-up between working on the bomb and passing its secrets on. Probably both.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Probably the only person in British public life today of historical class calibre. Or the only one I'm aware of.

[Magic]

These protests full of cunts is making me want to vote Trump.

[Jimmy Floyd]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38825830

Sounds like a list of bloody great arguments for leaving. Public support from Brexit will be up at 70% once Juncker and Verhofstadt become household names.

[phonics]

Wasn't that the bloke who they sacked for not BELIEVING IN BREXIT?

[Jimmy Floyd]

No, he resigned. He gets a terrible write-up in All Out War as being clueless.

[phonics]

When you get the good seat at the game

826809483200495616

[Jimmy Floyd]

The Brexit screaming is back, and this time it's BETRAYAL and total idiocy on both sides.

MPs are elected to vote how they see fit, not to vote with the majority of their constituents. This applies to both sides and is really a very fucking simple concept, and yet look at the state of today's news.

[Byron]

I was in WHSmith this morning and I agree, it's pretty horrific stuff.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Also, if I hear one more actor or comedian's opinion today I'm going to combust. Why don't builders, fruit pickers, call centre workers etc get heard?

[phonics]

Builders have LBC, Call-centre Workers have Facebook, Fruit pickers don't speak English.

[Lewis]

To say nobody likes him, this (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/01/we-stand-together-against-donald-trump-toxic-agenda) seems like a pretty low-rent array of 'public figures'. Obviously these things fall flat without Downing Street organising them.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It's just the same boring left wing cunts as always, who think that they matter because they live in London and know brown people. Fight me.

Syriza UK? I mean, please.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I almost forgot the biggest lol of the week: Diane Abbott (Hackney MP) not voting.

[phonics]

This Brexit White Paper looks like it's been put together by the top, top minds as usual.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3qX-kSWAAAqYH-.jpg:large

98 days of holiday per year?

[niko_cee]

I was directed to an article by A C Grayling today which might be just about the worst piece of writing I've ever read from an academic.

[Magic]

Have you not read Bettsy's book yet lol.

[Lewis]

I was directed to an article by A C Grayling today which might be just about the worst piece of writing I've ever read from an academic.

His has definitely been one of the better Brexit-induced MELTDOWNs. It's probably all a sham to get the pinkos to like him again after he started that twat university.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I bet he doesn't know what the single market is either.

[niko_cee]

His has definitely been one of the better Brexit-induced MELTDOWNs. It's probably all a sham to get the pinkos to like him again after he started that twat university.

That threw me for a while. New College? As in Oxford? Oh, I see the New College of the Humanities.

It was a QC who had linked it [the twitter account set up to follow my daughter's school bombards me with this shit constantly] so I had hoped for better than "the result went the wrong way so the best way to deal with this in a democracy is to ignore it. Do you even know what democracy means? I think I do and you'll find . . ."

Then I saw he was a philosophy professor and it started to make sense.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Twitter is SEETHING again because an audience member on Question Time said that a straight banana made her vote Leave.

At some point somebody, probably your man A. C. Grayling, is going to seriously propose taking away the vote from thickos, and then the real entertainment will begin.

[phonics]

It's fine to be an idiot in private but why would you go on national telly and say that? The weird thing is the likes of The Mail and The Sun having a go when they very clearly printed those stories.

[Boydy]

Twitter is SEETHING again because an audience member on Question Time said that a straight banana made her vote Leave.

At some point somebody, probably your man A. C. Grayling, is going to seriously propose taking away the vote from thickos, and then the real entertainment will begin.

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10843.html

He's one of your lot though.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Plato was arguing similar things in 380 BC. I really can't get beyond the idea that once somebody decides they are fundamentally of more worth than another human being - not more talented, or clever, but of more intrinsic worth - then you're into very dangerous territory.

[phonics]

While we're on regulations

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3ukx7VXAAAka1P.jpg:large

lol

[Jimmy Floyd]

lol, what a thick farming cunt, confiscate his radishes and send him to an inner city comp for re-education.

[Boydy]

Plato was arguing similar things in 380 BC. I really can't get beyond the idea that once somebody decides they are fundamentally of more worth than another human being - not more talented, or clever, but of more intrinsic worth - then you're into very dangerous territory.

The right do that all the time.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I'm not saying they don't. It comes about from powerful people of any stripe losing, not getting their own way, and crying like babies.

[phonics]

lol, what a thick farming cunt, confiscate his radishes and send him to an inner city comp for re-education.

Or just point and laugh.

[Lewis]

lolling at the banana woman is all well and good, but our growth forecasts were drastically upgraded (again) yesterday. How many people voted to remain fearing economic problems? These people were misinformed and gullible to Europhile myth-making.

These 'rule of the knowledgeable' people make two mistakes. First, they forget that even intelligent people are 'irrational' and full of shit (sometimes more so). Second, what makes half of them think that they would get a say in it? The idea of the 'uneducated' was thrown around a lot after the vote, but why should somebody like me let mere degree holders have any say over the society I want to live in?

[phonics]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4AH3fuWQAEWjP1.jpg:large

Christ.

[Lewis]

Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party pissing that by-election is the best outcome by far.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I have my fingers crossed for Lab hold but they are so fucking useless that I wouldn't bet on it. Losing votes certainly two ways if not three.

All Out War (47% of the way through, jesus wept) is making me think Farage is a bit less of an idiot than you'd think, and it's Banks who drives the mong tendencies.

[Lewis]

Polly Toynbee has been to Stoke (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/06/stoke-central-byelection-ukip-labour), and lol:


No one sensible would call this unpredictable byelection. But the result will matter most for the people of Stoke: for their identity, their reputation, how they want to be seen in the world. Who do they want to be? If Stoke became the Ukip seat that set off a far-right tremor, that would blight its image and prospects, branding it a lost zone of the despairing and angry. Already the city is overshadowed by nearby Manchester and Birmingham: a Ukip vote would sharpen the contrast with those cities’ self-confident civic pride.

I bet they're all sweating over that.

[niko_cee]

Hopefully the EU doesn't bring in some anti-darting legislation.

That Fake News Show Channel 4 have is an excellent new manifestation of metropolitan seethe.

[phonics]

As someone who is basing their entire idea of Stoke on one girl he knew from Uni. It's going UKIP.

[GS]

Polly Toynbee has been to Stoke (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/06/stoke-central-byelection-ukip-labour), and lol:


No one sensible would call this unpredictable byelection. But the result will matter most for the people of Stoke: for their identity, their reputation, how they want to be seen in the world. Who do they want to be? If Stoke became the Ukip seat that set off a far-right tremor, that would blight its image and prospects, branding it a lost zone of the despairing and angry. Already the city is overshadowed by nearby Manchester and Birmingham: a Ukip vote would sharpen the contrast with those cities’ self-confident civic pride.

I bet they're all sweating over that.

If there's anything that is sure to swing the vote in Stoke Central, it's the prospect of disappointing the cafe latte crowd in London.

I know we joke about these things, but she seems to be having some sort of medium-term nervous breakdown. I wonder if it's the repeated visions of Oswald Mosley marching the blackshirts down Whitehall that she's had since that day at the phone banks.

[Lewis]

They all are, because their influence is vanishing. The FAKE NEWS panic is them desperately trying to regain it.

[GS]

I can't imagine too many people have ever been influenced by the hand-wringing sneering of Guardian columnists.

[Boydy]

Mate, they have Costa Coffee in Stoke.

[GS]

They'll be frequented almost exclusively by Remain voters.

[Lewis]

I can't imagine too many people have ever been influenced by the hand-wringing sneering of Guardian columnists.

The content/tone of the political debate (at least between the main parties) was rather more Guardian-centric over the past twenty years than the size of its readership ought to have merited. The whole Conservative 'modernisation' was basically an attempt to get them on side, and for fucking what? It's all in the bin now.

[John]

Where do Leave voters buy their coffee and shortbread?

[Lewis]

Wherever does those fried breakfast challenges.

[GS]

It's certainly true that the Notting Hill Wankers were desperate for their approval, but I suspect that sort of time wasting barely scratches the surface for your average voter. It's not as if they looked at David Cameron and thought anything other than he "well, he's demonstrably better than that other cunt."

[GS]

Where do Leave voters buy their coffee and shortbread?

Gritty British cafés where ashtrays are still left on tables and the staff make no pretence that you're an annoyance.

[Boydy]

You voted leave and if you went into a cafe like that you'd be getting the packet of baby wipes you keep in your manbag out to wipe down the table.

[John]

I was going to lol at the idea that they still go to HMV to buy albums in your mind too, but I saw a poster advertising a new HMV location earlier so there might be some truth in that.

[Lewis]

They don't write for the average voter. They write for people like them to define the parameters of 'acceptable' opinion. Once politicians and policy-makers (who are people like them) start ignoring those then what have they got?

[GS]

You voted leave and if you went into a cafe like that you'd be getting the packet of baby wipes you keep in your manbag out to wipe down the table.

I voted leave on constitutional issues, not because I fancy booting all the non-Brits out of the country by tomorrow lunchtime. That said, it was all a means to an end wasn't it so fuck it.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The content/tone of the political debate (at least between the main parties) was rather more Guardian-centric over the past twenty years than the size of its readership ought to have merited. The whole Conservative 'modernisation' was basically an attempt to get them on side, and for fucking what? It's all in the bin now.

Their historic mistake was misreading what the Blair landslides were about. They thought it was the national embracing of Modern British Values and the rest of their wank. It was actually a reflection of which party offered the most competent government at the time, as it always is.

[Lewis]

The lingering effects Year Zero naturally infests all of this. Commentators and affiliated wankers mis-read all of that, figure that the Third Way is the only way, cut their cloth and build their careers accordingly, and then sit there not knowing what to do when it turns out that most people aren't (as Rod Liddle put it the other day) 'wood-burning stove people'.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Another class bit from All Out War (this is about 10 days out from the vote):


Mandelson raised the idea of a migration fund. 'I think you need to listen to what hard-nosed Labour voters in Hartlepool are saying,' he said now.

Oliver snapped back, 'I don't need to listen to them. I watch the news and read the focus groups. I know what people think.'

Imagine being way more out of touch than Peter Mandelson.

[Lewis]

I don't understand the 'migrant fund' people. Wouldn't it, and especially any increases in it, just be taken as an admission of failure across the board? It seems to be some perfect pinko circle jerk of thinking that more Doctors 'n' Nurses solves everything, and that people only think about their [non-existent] 'communities'.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Jeremy seems to be having another meltdown. God Save the Queen.

[Jimmy Floyd]

In fact, I think there's a real case to be made that Seumas Milne is a deep-embedded Tory agent.

[GS]

Are these the "Jeremy to quit" rumours? You'd almost feel sorry for him, until you remember the whole condoning of terrorism thing.

[phonics]

Theresa May complaining about alternative facts now. What a useless twat,

[Boydy]

What's this stuff about Corbyn?

And what did May say?

[Lewis]

If Jezza goes, only to be replaced by some other useless gimp, it puts the 'moderates' in a lol position. If they work for the new idiot then they will just look like they stitched Jezza up (which they did, but they at least have plausible deniability at the moment), and if they continue to refuse to work with anybody other than wankers like them then they might as well give up.

Jezza. :cool:

[phonics]

Here's the story from AP

Jeremy Corbyn has accused the government of arranging a “sweetheart deal” with a Tory-led council to stop a controversial council tax referendum, the Press Association reports,
The Labour leader questioned how much the government had offered to Surrey county council to “kill this off” and pressed Theresa May (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/theresamay) to explain if the same deal would be available to every local authority facing the “social care crisis”.


The prime minister claimed Corbyn was using “alternative facts”.


Surrey has abandoned its plans for a 15% hike in council tax to address the crisis in social care funding, adding it will instead “take a risk” that ministers will find a solution.

Labour MPs could be heard shouting “we want to hear more about Surrey” as May struggled to answer Corbyn’s questions.

Surrey council leader David Hodge said on Tuesday that he would instead seek a 4.99% rise in council tax although warned that unless there was progress on funding the situation would become “untenable and intolerable”.

The planned 15% rise risked embarrassing health secretary Jeremy Hunt and chancellor Philip Hammond, who both have constituencies in Surrey.

Corbyn, speaking during prime minister’s Questions, raised problems affecting health services in Liverpool and the difficulties for officials in meeting the government.

He questioned May if a “special deal” was done for Surrey before telling MPs he had seen “leaked copies of texts” sent by Hodge “intended for somebody called Nick” who works for ministers in the Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG). Corbyn said:These texts read, ‘I’m advised that DCLG officials have been working on a solution and you will be contacting me to agree a memorandum of understanding’.

Will the government now publish this memorandum of understanding and, while they’re about it, will all councils be offered the same deal?
May replied:What we have given all councils is the opportunity to raise a 3% precept on the council tax for that to go into social care.

What the Labour party fails to understand is that this is not just a question of looking at money, it is a question of looking at spreading best practice and finding a sustainable solution.
Corbyn went on to describe a second text message. He said:I wonder if it’s anything to do with the fact that the chancellor and health secretary both represent Surrey constituencies.

But there was a second text from the Surrey county council leader to Nick - and in the second text it says ‘The numbers you indicated are the numbers I understand are acceptable for me to accept and call off the R’.
Now, I’ve been reading a bit of John le Carre and apparently R means referendum.
It’s very subtle all this.
He goes on to say in his text to Nick ‘If it is possible that info to be sent to myself I can then revert back soonest, really want to kill this off’.
So how much did the government offer Surrey to kill this off and is the same sweetheart deal on offer to every council facing the social care crisis created by [May’s government?
May said she had made clear to Corbyn that every council has the opportunity to raise the precept.
Speaker John Bercow intervened as he was again forced to calm MPs in the chamber.
May then said of Corbyn: He comes to the despatch box making all sorts of claims. Yet again what we get from Labour is alternative facts; what they really need is an alternative leader.

When Corbyns good, he's bloody brilliant. Shame he's inconsistent really.

[GS]

Here's the story from AP

Jeremy Corbyn has accused the government of arranging a “sweetheart deal” with a Tory-led council to stop a controversial council tax referendum, the Press Association reports,
The Labour leader questioned how much the government had offered to Surrey county council to “kill this off” and pressed Theresa May (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/theresamay) to explain if the same deal would be available to every local authority facing the “social care crisis”.


The prime minister claimed Corbyn was using “alternative facts”.


Surrey has abandoned its plans for a 15% hike in council tax to address the crisis in social care funding, adding it will instead “take a risk” that ministers will find a solution.

Labour MPs could be heard shouting “we want to hear more about Surrey” as May struggled to answer Corbyn’s questions.

Surrey council leader David Hodge said on Tuesday that he would instead seek a 4.99% rise in council tax although warned that unless there was progress on funding the situation would become “untenable and intolerable”.

The planned 15% rise risked embarrassing health secretary Jeremy Hunt and chancellor Philip Hammond, who both have constituencies in Surrey.

Corbyn, speaking during prime minister’s Questions, raised problems affecting health services in Liverpool and the difficulties for officials in meeting the government.

He questioned May if a “special deal” was done for Surrey before telling MPs he had seen “leaked copies of texts” sent by Hodge “intended for somebody called Nick” who works for ministers in the Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG). Corbyn said:These texts read, ‘I’m advised that DCLG officials have been working on a solution and you will be contacting me to agree a memorandum of understanding’.

Will the government now publish this memorandum of understanding and, while they’re about it, will all councils be offered the same deal?
May replied:What we have given all councils is the opportunity to raise a 3% precept on the council tax for that to go into social care.

What the Labour party fails to understand is that this is not just a question of looking at money, it is a question of looking at spreading best practice and finding a sustainable solution.
Corbyn went on to describe a second text message. He said:I wonder if it’s anything to do with the fact that the chancellor and health secretary both represent Surrey constituencies.

But there was a second text from the Surrey county council leader to Nick - and in the second text it says ‘The numbers you indicated are the numbers I understand are acceptable for me to accept and call off the R’.
Now, I’ve been reading a bit of John le Carre and apparently R means referendum.
It’s very subtle all this.
He goes on to say in his text to Nick ‘If it is possible that info to be sent to myself I can then revert back soonest, really want to kill this off’.
So how much did the government offer Surrey to kill this off and is the same sweetheart deal on offer to every council facing the social care crisis created by [May’s government?
May said she had made clear to Corbyn that every council has the opportunity to raise the precept.
Speaker John Bercow intervened as he was again forced to calm MPs in the chamber.
May then said of Corbyn: He comes to the despatch box making all sorts of claims. Yet again what we get from Labour is alternative facts; what they really need is an alternative leader.

When Corbyns good, he's bloody brilliant. Shame he's inconsistent really.

No, he isn't. Even when he makes a rare sensible point, it's impossible to take him seriously because his delivery is agitated, shouty, and everybody knows he doesn't have it in him to drive a point home to its logical conclusion.

[Jimmy Floyd]

I was looking forward to the 15% referendum, it would have gone down in flames and the council leader would have had to resign, hence him doing a typically corrupt deal.

A good start on the funding front would be for them to stop producing their glossy absolute cunt of a propaganda magazine that comes through every door whether we ask for it or not.

[Lewis]

There must be infinite scope to take the piss with council taxes in Surrey. Just threaten them with a load of centrally-planned 'affordable homes' being built.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The requirement to build x percent of 'affordable homes' per unaffordable block of flats basically saves us from having the whole place concreted over, and also makes developers cry salt tears because Surrey councillors are probably the easiest people to bung in the world.

In fact, half the local Tories are raving lefties who just go under the Conservative badge because they're not getting elected onto the gravy train otherwise (a bit like it used to be with Labour in Scotland).

[Lewis]

I saw some picture the other day showing where all of the unaffordable housing is, and all it does is prove why they will never do anything about it. It's probably better to just give it twenty years and hope that companies move upwards and outwards (unlucky, teachers and that in London).

[Jimmy Floyd]

You'd hope that Brexit equalises the competitiveness of the country somewhat, but there are probably bigger forces at play now that will keep London on top.

The European Union? I've shit 'em.

[Lewis]

What a world it is where Clive Lewis resigning is big news.

[Magic]

Why isn't the pound plummeting?! Was my panic Euro buy mistimed?

[Lewis]

829317126917849088

lol

[Jimmy Floyd]

Jezza's tweet of 'The real fight starts now' is fucking top, top trolling. You have to hand it to the man. One of the champions of Brexit.

[GS]

Wee Jimmy Krankie was OUTRAGED by it. The SNP mob singing Ode to Joy has to be one of the more pathetic spectacles the house has witnessed in the last 750 years.

[Yevrah]

Dimbleby just kicked the arse of Owen Smith for bleating about the NHS needing more money and the Tories depriving it of it.

Come to think of it, I've never heard Labour MP's ever offer anything other than chucking more money at it.

[Lewis]

Would you rather polio came back? Is that it?

[Boydy]

What did Dimbleby say?

I've noticed there's a negative story about the NHS in the news nearly every day at the minute. They're really working on softening us up for the privatisation, aren't they?

[Lewis]

I took it as the communist BBC throwing Jezza a lifeline. Huh.

[Lewis]

829961986519728128

Jezza. :cool:

[GS]

Wor Jez offering 'real opposition'.

He just needs his message to get out, then the numbers will change.

[GS]

http://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-allows-article-50-rebels-to-keep-jobs-10763124

They're basically leaderless. Defying a three line whip and keeping your job is proper end of days.

[Lewis]

Yeah, but Paul Nuttall might have lied about being at Hillsborough (based on his suspicious refusal to mention it every hour), so UKIP are FINISHED.

[Lewis]

Ukip produced two statements. The statement from Nuttall’s father begins: “I am and always have been the father of Paul Nuttall, leader of the UK Independence party.”

:lol:

[Jimmy Floyd]

I want to know what Seumas Milne's endgame is.

[Lewis]

I want to know what Seumas Milne's endgame is.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4i9nBkXUAA-3te.jpg

Probably that.

[GS]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4i9nBkXUAA-3te.jpg

Probably that.

Third in their northern heartlands, effectively. Some effort.

[Boydy]

If he destroys the Labour party as opposition to unfettered capitalism then he'll hasten the demise of capitalism when it collapses under the strain of its own contradictions.

https://media1.popsugar-assets.com/files/thumbor/1UCqC6E8YntSMsDAj9rJBiVZkw0/fit-in/1024x1024/filters:format_auto-!!-:strip_icc-!!-/2017/02/06/925/n/1922507/8b9df5695898e6f1e25586.24223435_edit_img_image_165 16765_1486411880/i/What-Roll-Safe-Thinking-Meme.jpg

[phonics]

That meme is this big already? Black Twitter really does rule the world.

[Disco]

That's the third time in a few days that picture has been posted, mix it up a bit chaps.

[Boydy]

Where else was it posted? I don't remember seeing it on here.