The UK Politics Thread [Wot did Jez do now...]

[GS]

Owen Smiths said that we should bring ISIS to the table.

edit: And yet the main story seems to be 'Corbyn doesn't know who Ant & Dec are'

Nice.

To be fair to Jezza on this one, the media would have went MENTAL if he'd said it. Smith is terribly out of his depth, and really his sole selling point is that he isn't Corbyn. He seems an arrogant fuck as well.

[Boydy]

To be fair to Jezza on this one

Holy shit.

[GS]

What's your view on Venezuela, Boyd? Genuine question given it's turned to shit.

[niko_cee]

Didn't even call him 'Wor Jez'.

[Boydy]

What's your view on Venezuela, Boyd? Genuine question given it's turned to shit.

I haven't really been following it, to be honest.

What's going down now?

[Shindig]

Food is plentiful but nobody can afford it.

[GS]

I haven't really been following it, to be honest.

What's going down now?

It's fallen apart. Government workers are only allowed to go in about one day a week because there's not enough electricity (leading to massive blackouts across the country constantly), even the middle classes are rummaging in bins for food and there's huge numbers crossing the Colombian border just to get hold of basic provisions. Its economy is forecast to contract something like 10% this year.

Venezuela seemed to be a rallying cry for 'good socialism' a few years ago, and everybody is suspiciously quiet about it now. It was a genuine question, because I don't think there's a single example in the last five decades where socialism has actually worked.

[Lewis]

No report lolling at Venezuela is complete without mentioning their world-leading oil reserves.

[GS]

309065744954580992

I'm sure we'd all like to avoid having that sort of socialist shite over here.

[Shindig]

If everybody's skint does that count as shared wealth? Seems like the loophole Pyonyang could deploy.

[GS]

Corbyn wouldn't commit to Article 5, defeating the entire point of NATO.

Top, top work.

More importantly, this is a cracking article: http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/jeremy-corbyn-should-not-be-allowed-to-rewrite-the-history-of-his-support-for-the-ira/

Boydy voted for this lad, for fuck sake. Never support the left, lads.

[Jimmy Floyd]

https://twitter.com/Alison1mackITV/status/766330487854010369

I can't stop watching it. What a legend Corbyn is.

[Lewis]

Jack Dromey was an associate member of the KGB in the seventies, so he could probably provide some decent insight on all of this if he wasn't utterly pointless.

[GS]

Imagine how intensely dull dinner table discussions must be in that household.

[Lewis]

I bet he does all the housework.

[GS]

This came up in my Twitter feed in the context of Nicolola Sturgeon's useless manoeuvring post the EU vote. First Minister of Scotland, lads.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfQexFHZ5rE

[GS]

"Sadiq" has come out for Owen Smith and effectively called Jezza useless. His supporters have went MENTAL, because he apparently only won London because Corbyn is a man of the people.

Still, it's quite good political opportunism. Fair play.

[Lewis]

His sense of self-importance (which was up there anyway) has skyrocketed since getting that job. Andy Burnham will probably start poncing about like Thomas Wolsey if he gets to run Manchester, going on and on about his 'mandate' whenever the actual leader says something he doesn't agree with.

[Lewis]

Dan Hodges went full faggot during the referendum, but this (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3751067/DAN-HODGES-Spineless-incoherent-incompetent-Owen-Smith-s-house-cards-collapsing.html) is good.

[GS]

Smith is completely out of his depth and has been from the beginning.

I doubt anyone could have taken Corbyn out in this leadership cycle, but he hasn't half done a fucking awful job of it.

[GS]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/21/leavers-brexit-ashamed-harm-yet-to-come

:harold:

It's been two months, mate. You'd think he'd have moved on by now.

[elth]

Corbyn's train floor stunt was, well, a stunt. Walked past empty, unreserved seats.

https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about/media-room/#/pressreleases/virgin-trains-clarifies-labour-leaders-claim-of-ram-packed-service-1530005

What a fucking moron.

[Pepe]

That's pretty lol.

[Lewis]

768078650235166722

Fair play to whoever wrote that.

[GS]

Corbyn's train floor stunt was, well, a stunt. Walked past empty, unreserved seats.

https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about/media-room/#/pressreleases/virgin-trains-clarifies-labour-leaders-claim-of-ram-packed-service-1530005

What a fucking moron.

Amazing.

No doubt his moronic supporters will have it spun in short order.

[niko_cee]

:D

Really? How could they possibly have thought that would end anyway other than this? Beyond parody doesn't seem to scratch the surface anymore. RIP satire.

[Raoul Duke]

The Thick Of It is real and we are living it

[Pepe]

Hard to film in a properly packed train to be fair.

[Boydy]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/passengers-dispute-virgin-trains-version-of-jeremy-corbyn-sitting-on-floor-video-a7205631.html

[GS]

Amazing.

No doubt his moronic supporters will have it spun in short order.

That didn't take long. The video footage is fairly conclusive, I would suggest.

[elth]

Attempting to spin a picture of him walking past empty, unreserved seats is impressive.

Maybe neither he nor anyone with him actually understand how trains work.

[Shindig]

"That train was packed. I know because my vision was obscured by the chair in front of me. Who put that there?"

Guys, is there some cool country I can emigrate to?

[Byron]

I might just move to America and be done with it. At least crazy is an accepted way of life over there.

[Lewis]

We will vote in Parliament to block any attempt to invoke Article 50 until Theresa May commits to a second referendum or a general election on whatever EU exit deal emerges at the end of the process... I'm a passionate pro-European and I will fight tooth and nail to keep us in the EU. The British people were lied to by the Leave campaign - they deserve to have a say on whatever exit deal the Tories strike with the EU.

lol you stupid twat.

[Lewis]

Elsewhere in Free Britain, Wee Jimmy Krankie appears to have suggested that Scotland could reduce its deficit with borrowing. Good idea.

[GS]

Corbyn was SEETHING when that bloke from Sky News tried to ask him a question on it too. He can't cope with situations where people don't already agree with him and adhere to the party line. He's genuinely fucking hopeless.

Lewis - I was reading about the GERS figures earlier too. The situation for Scotland is quite stark, really. A £15bn annual deficit plugged by Westminster, 64% of trade with the UK over 15% with the EU and secession necessitating a floating Scots currency with acceptance of the Euro for entry into the 'common market'. There's no case whatsoever for independence, but there goes Wee Jimmy Krankie goes trying desperately to put a spin on it all to pretend it's somehow everybody else's fault.

It's genuinely insulting to the average voter. It's a shame Sebo isn't about any more, it would have been interesting to watch him thrash about to pretend the way Scotland are leeching off England to maintain their public services is somehow England's fault.

[Lewis]

I had a good lol at the wallies arguing with Andrew Neil earlier. They (like the Jezza Fans) seem to know enough to qualify as not being thick, but they just filter it all through thickness. They remind me of that Cirdan knobhead who used to post here (and Mert to an extent, although he doesn't really believe it).

[GS]

There's quite a good line in the Cybernat world of claiming that Scottish goods go out of English ports and therefore aren't captured in the data. I mean, fucking seriously.

Mhairi Black was complaining about Tory NHS policy a while back, failing to recognise that it's a fully devolved issue to Holyrood. Either she's thick, which she presumably isn't, or she's lying.

It's a genuine shame that these public figures are thick as shit, but I suppose that's always going to be the problem when you've got a party like the SNP which hinges its entire existence on one issue.

[GS]

Also:

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/78377/bernie-sanders-denies-sending-jeremy-corbyn-good


At a phone bank in Walthamstow, east London, on Monday night, Mr Corbyn said: "We had a message yesterday from Bernie Sanders, saying that they condemned him because he wasn’t electable.

“And he said the reason they condemned him was because he was electable. And he represented a threat to the establishment within the USA.

Mr Corbyn added: “So I think you can see the parallels that are going on there.”

He [a spokesman for Senator Sanders] told The Huffington Post: “The senator didn’t send a message and doesn’t intend to get involved in British politics.”

A spokesman for Mr Corbyn said: "Jeremy was misinformed by an aide, who had wrongly been led to believe this was the case."

:harold:

[GS]

And the spin begins in earnest.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqpzTi6W8AEafZ3.jpg

[Yevrah]

I wish they'd just fuck off.

[Shindig]

Scotland's prosperity is ... like, ours.

[GS]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/26/theresa-may-will-trigger-brexit-negotiations-without-commons-vot/

Excellent.

[GS]

769855265378279424

The Canadian deal will be next to die a death, and everyone will have to accept that the Commission really are fucking useless.

[Raoul Duke]

Wasn't this the massively overreaching TTIP clusterfuck? Sounded like a horrendous deal

[Lewis]

lol at that same German bloke admitting that the entire shitshow could collapse if we succeed. What does that tell you, Hermann?

[niko_cee]

I presume by "keep the nice things" he means all those fucking German cars.

[GS]

Wasn't this the massively overreaching TTIP clusterfuck? Sounded like a horrendous deal

It was indeed horrendous, but it was apparently the best trade deal that our great and bountiful European overlords could come up with. Having spent about eight years to get here, they've now managed to fuck it up. The Commission have had to cede confirming CETA to national parliaments as well, which will no doubt lead to the thing being blocked for years to come as various regional and national parliaments take issue with parts of it.

But still, it's a travesty we're fucking the thing off. Apparently.


I presume by "keep the nice things" he means all those fucking German cars.

Fuck knows.

Joseph Stieglitz has a book out where he traces every European problem back to the premature introduction of the Euro. Which none of them want to admit to, of course, because that would necessitate accepting that 'the project' is failing.

[GS]

lol at that same German bloke admitting that the entire shitshow could collapse if we succeed. What does that tell you, Hermann?

He had a good dig at Merkel's immigration policy of last year too.

[Shindig]

Gave some Nazi kids the finger this week as well.

[Yevrah]

Regarding TTIP, weren't most Guardian readers up in absolute arms about the powers we were potentially ceding to big business by signing up to it? And weren't they the same Guardian readers who voted remain and are still chimping out over the result?

[Lewis]

They were the deluded 'remain and reform' people, who were probably the worst of the bunch.

[elth]

TTIP getting binned off because of Brexit would be a pretty good silver lining.

[GS]

Regarding TTIP, weren't most Guardian readers up in absolute arms about the powers we were potentially ceding to big business by signing up to it? And weren't they the same Guardian readers who voted remain and are still chimping out over the result?

Not only that, but they refused to accept that the EU might be shit for small businesses. If you make incredibly generous assumptions, you can only stretch the statistics to 11% maximum here (https://fullfact.org/europe/how-many-businesses-export-eu/) of businesses who actually export to the EU. The other 89% still have to adhere to all of the regulations, and small businesses have no sway whatsoever with the lobbying industry which is heavily embedded in the Brussels operation. Not only that, the EU can't even negotiate the necessary trade deals with non-shit countries so that we can diversify markets.

Really the Guardian position (or metropolitan liberal, if you will) comes down to geopolitical considerations and an embarrassment of 'Britishness'.


TTIP getting binned off because of Brexit would be a pretty good silver lining.

It's a terrible, terrible deal. If we'd voted to remain, I'd be thrilled that it had collapsed but the more concerning aspect of it is that a) this was the best deal that could apparently be negotiated and b) having negotiated it, they didn't have the competence to finalise it satisfactorily.

[elth]

The other thing is that it's the same neoliberal technocrat corporate stooges who'll negotiate whatever deal happens instead, so you'll basically get the same shite.

[GS]

No doubt it'll be the same once the modern-day British civil service start getting involved in bespoke trade negotiations on our behalf.

At least we can hold our parliament accountable if they ratify some sort of TTIP-like disaster.

[GS]

In more encouraging news, the prospects of a Tory landslide continue to look good. This is before they've even began a sustained attack on Corbyn and his mates:

770183634024296449

[Byron]

I'd say the press are doing a good job of a sustained attack on Corbyn anyway.

[GS]

Yes, by having the temerity to report what he has actually said and done over 33 years as an MP.

[phonics]

Owen Smith says we should bring ISIS to the negotiating table. Nothing.

Jeremy Corbyn says he couldn't get a seat on a train.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqnvoqvW8AAW8BP.jpg

He's shit but there's a clear difference in the way Corbyn gets treated to everyone else.

[John]

He's the current leader of the opposition. Owen Smith is currently just some twonk.

[GS]

Nothing on Owen Smith negotiating with ISIS. Quite right:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3760420/British-fighters-Syria-known-Bob-Crow-Brigade-attack-Labour-leadership-candidate-Owen-Smith-called-talks-ISIS.html

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/owen-smith-branded-a-terrorist-sympathiser-n0kx7r9nh

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/18/owen-smith-talks-isis-labour-leadership-contest

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/08/owen-smith-tries-play-down-negotiate-isis-gaffe

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/owen-smith-isis-round-the-table-case-talking-labour-leadership-contest-cant-make-case-a7195331.html

Not that the issue wouldn't have been more amplified under Jez We Can, but that's because he has a long record of supporting terrorism. You can write Smith's statement off as a gaffe, rather than evidence of a more insidious support for terrorism. I suggest you read further on Jez and McDonnell's support and condoning of the IRA before you claim I'm being unfair.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The train thing was a clear question of integrity/lying. Owen Smith is just a moron.

[Lewis]

The Labour Party (the Labour Party) on 140 seats. Jesus. That would literally just be Yes2AV, coalfields, and Liverpool wouldn't it? Which would then ensure a double shitter because those are the places with the most pro-Jezza loons, who would inevitably blame any such defeat on the remaining normals as a pretext to de-select them all.

lol at that, and lol also at all of these right-wing commentators pretending to feel sorry for Labour as a 'great party', talking about the need for proper opposition, and all that shite concern. Fuck them. Stomp them into the ground.

[GS]

London, the north-west and some in the north I would imagine. That's before boundary changes as well, so you could well be looking at a bigger majority once you factor both that and the impact of the campaign itself which would surely eat into the Labour vote (weakness of Corbyn as a potential PM, the Tories as the only part who'll deliver the Brexit 70% of Labour seats voted for etc.).

[phonics]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CrGArHbWYAAxivY.jpg:large

That's whats holding Britain back, the metric system.

[GS]

They're not suggesting it's 'holding Britain back', rather having to scrap (most of) the imperial system was, and remains, evidence of wholly unnecessary EU overreach. I suspect you wouldn't have many complaints with allowing the use of the imperial system once again.

Except from embittered remain voters with a grievance like yourself.

[phonics]

Who would want imperial back? It's the stupidest system in the world. Why don't we do away with decimalisation while we're at it? That was what we had WHEN THE EMPIRE WAS STRONG. We could start referring to 0 degrees as 32 again. It'd be magical.

[GS]

On the subject of European overreach, this (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/08/28/brussels-mustnt-achieve-tax-reform-by-using-state-aid-rules-crea/) is a very sound analysis of the Apple tax case in the south.

In essence, the Commission have creatively leveraged illegal state aid rules to try and 'backdoor' some element of tax harmonisation policy through. This is not an issue under their remit and taxation of this kind remains 'devolved' to the member states. They've basically decided that national sovereignty can be ignored when the policies therein don't suit them.

If it stands, it could well have an adverse impact on FDI in the south - it's benefited strongly from its advantageous tax regime, and any sense that the Commission can launch ad hoc cases of this nature - and actually win - could well deter future investment. It would also raise some fairly serious questions regarding the EU's respect for national sovereignty on issues which are not clearly within their remit.

[Davgooner]

Apple are fucking seething. It's going to take them a good week or two to make back that sort of money.

[phonics]

Apple are fucking seething. It's going to take them a good week or two to make back that sort of money.

Look Dav, we don't want to hurt the Apple workers more than they already are. Imagine the amount of anti-suicide nets they'll have to put up around FoxConn. Fucking abuse of power it is.

[GS]

You either accept that a country should be allowed to act within the confines of its own laws, or you don't. Ireland has not ceded control of its corporation tax regime to Brussels, therefore it is none of the Commission's business.

Not respecting national sovereignty is a big reason why your side lost the referendum.

On a separate point, Ireland has done very well out of its low tax regime and generous incentives for R&D. Much as hammering business for tax revenue may sound desirable, they'll just up sticks and move somewhere else if that's the case and that benefits nobody in Ireland.

Still, I suppose the politics of envy necessitates your positions as much as anything else.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Foxconn and friends are like they are because Chinese people are inherently evil sadists, not because of Apple. Apple are simply happy to cash in.

[Davgooner]

The standard rate of Irish corporate tax is 12.5%. The Commissions's investigation concluded that Apple had effectively paid 1% tax on its European profits in 2003 and about 0.005% in 2014.

:moop:

[phonics]

Still, I suppose the politics of envy necessitates your positions as much as anything else.

I earnt more than the UK national average when I was on my internship and just tripled my salary. I'm all good mate. If you want to make money out of a society, you have to pay back into it. That's all it is.

[Pepe]

:moop:

Hammered with taxes!

[phonics]

Apple have published an open letter to 'The European Community' in which they claim to employ 1.5 million people, (so it's fine not to pay taxes) the main issue here being that they seem to be counting App Developers (people who pay Apple for app dev software and then have 30% of any revenue made taken by Apple)

I wonder, if I was an Apple Dev, if I could ask for them to only take 0.005% of a cut instead. You know, because of how much I'm giving to 'The Apple Community'.

[Lewis]

Ireland should really follow us out, but, like Greece, they probably associate 'Europe' with not being as shit and poor as they used to be.

[GS]

Hammered with taxes!

That's not the issue in the context of the Apple case. It's a matter of whether the EU Commission have the right to leverage illegal state aid rules to impose tax harmonisation by the backdoor. Whether you agree with the Irish tax regime is another matter. I do, you don't (I assume), but equally I assume we can all get behind the idea that the EU shouldn't be muscling its way into areas of legislation that remain the purview of the national parliaments.


Ireland should really follow us out, but, like Greece, they probably associate 'Europe' with not being as shit and poor as they used to be.

The south has done very well out of the EU, although that may start to change once we leave.

The far bigger issue for Ireland and Greece is that they're Eurozone members, which is only going to lead to more problems further down the line. Until the Germans stop sticking slavishly to centralised 'rules' and penalising smaller countries when they break them, there's always the risk of serious economic hardship arising as a consequence of single currency membership.

I'd be all for inviting them back into the United Kingdom, mind you. We can keep the border, just to aggrieve the ex-IRA lads further.

[Disco]

When did GS start posting like Harold?

Also lol at wanting to bring back imperial measurements, there's nothing wrong with it but there must be about four greengrocers who still give a shit. Plus it hasn't been taught in schools for about 40 years so we're left with about 8 biddies who remember how many bananas you get in a pound. What's the point?

[phonics]

When did GS start posting like Harold?

Also lol at wanting to bring back imperial measurements, there's nothing wrong with it but there must be about four greengrocers who still give a shit. Plus it hasn't been taught in schools for about 40 years so we're left with about 8 biddies who remember how many bananas you get in a pound. What's the point?

But Disco, don't you get it? The frogs and the huns told us we had to and we caved. Are you some kind of beta cuck coward?

I've even got a slogan to put on the bus seeing as "350m to the NHS" didn't work out. "Make Britain Groat Again!"

[Disco]

Yeah why not, do I get a hat?

[GS]

Phonics spectacularly missing the point once again.

[phonics]

Yeah why not, do I get a hat?

Seeing as we're not giving it to the NHS and I got a cut-price deal, due to my new trade deal with China (it's just the best trade deal, a great deal), to produce them. You can have 350 million of them.

[Lewis]

It's over, mate. Let it go.

[Disco]

On a similar theme did we ever get our doomsday budget? I've been buying up candles and baked beans in preparation.

[GS]

Of course not.

[Disco]

You get about 48 pounds to the pound if anyone was wondering, and you can buy a drum (a fucking drum) of chocolate pound coins for less than fifty quid.

What a world we live in.

[GS]

I wouldn't get too excited. World War III should be just around the corner.

[Disco]

We've already got a wartime PM in waiting.


http://i.imgur.com/TlWtc2d.jpg


Just add powdered egg.

[GS]

People can stick the boot into Farage if they want, but he'd have been flying the planes in the Battle of Britain whilst the likes of Jez would have been agitating for strikes on the factory floor to stop the planes being built in the first place.

[Disco]

Alright mate, it was just an excuse to make a joke about powdered egg.

[GS]

Which is fair, but the Lord Farage gets a mighty amount of unfair stick.

[phonics]

:D

[GS]

I doubt you'd understand, given your peculiar ability to miss the point constantly.

Farage is one of the most consequential politicians since Thatcher. He should be in the Lords.

[phonics]

The undemocratic, establishment Lords? He'd fit right in.

[GS]

The Lords as an unelected chamber is fine, in principle. It prevents them adhering to populism in pursuit of votes and should allow them to act as a sensible revision chamber where the merits of the argument are all that matter. Alas that's not the case.

The issue that you have now is a) the abuse of the system by the political parties in terms of appointees and b) Lords overreach. The latter is particularly prevalent. The Lib Dems (with their eight MPs) mobilising their Lords to derail benefit changes because they didn't have the vote in the Commons was particularly problematic, whilst the Lords (Patience Wheatcroft, for fuck sake) suggesting that they might 'block' Brexit would have been a laugh. Still, the latter should be avoided because St Theresa is going to treat the invocation of Article 50 as a royal prerogative power. :cool:

It needs reform to throw out the wasters and to give it much clearer, narrower parameters than it has at present. Some sort of new legislation to update the Parliament Act should suffice.

The FT have suggested that the Lib Dems could be down to four MPs once the impact of the boundary changes comes through as well, which would be fucking excellent. They're pointless.

[Lewis]

Until they do come up with a proper reform package, how hard would it be to just have a bollocks half-way house of a peer for every MP (or one for every two and a few cross-benchers)? It would be easy enough to choose who you wanted, because hardly any of them want to work.

[GS]

Until they do come up with a proper reform package, how hard would it be to just have a bollocks half-way house of a peer for every MP (or one for every two and a few cross-benchers)? It would be easy enough to choose who you wanted, because hardly any of them want to work.

It shouldn't be hard to have a chamber that's reflective of the make-up of the Commons. More genuine cross-benchers and policy experts, 'experienced' statesmen. Perhaps some sort of list system would suffice for the parties to select their representatives.

Clearly the current shambles of Lib/Lab mobilising their Lords because they're in the minority in the Commons can't continue, nor can it possibly sustain the lol-worthy 800-odd members it has at present.

[GS]

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/0cpa7iw5l7/TimesResults_160830_LabourSelectorate.pdf

This is amazing, by the way. Jezza is going to increase his MANDATE, and he's doing it on the back of a landslide of voters who joined after the last election. For those who joined after September 2015, he's winning 86-14 - so clearly the 'saving Labour' campaign worked well.

Smith had hopes of winning in Wales, apparently, but even there he looks like getting hammered. Although that's hardly surprising given he's a moron.

[phonics]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CrJJpvoVIAA9cea.jpg

https://www.ft.com/content/3e0172a0-6e1b-11e6-9ac1-1055824ca907?ftcamp=social/free_to_read/editorial&segid=0100320

[GS]

Again, how much tax Apple have paid is not the issue arising from yesterday's ruling.

It's a question of who has jurisdiction. Taxation is a reserved matter for national parliaments, and it's not the Commission's business.

That's the issue, not whether Apple have engaged in legal tax avoidance.

[phonics]

Not really, they're rinsing the profits they've made from all these other countries through you and flicking you a few bob to keep your mouth shut. It's criminal and needs addressing more than 98% of other issues that exist in the world today outside of international terrorism and whether Jeremy Corbyn had a seat on a train or not.

[phonics]

770914355009445888

[GS]

Not really, they're rinsing the profits they've made from all these other countries through you and flicking you a few bob to keep your mouth shut. It's criminal and needs addressing more than 98% of other issues that exist in the world today outside of international terrorism and whether Jeremy Corbyn had a seat on a train or not.

Legally.

If the Irish want to change the tax system within their jurisdiction, let them do so. But that's a decision for the Irish government as guided by the Irish electorate. Not for some technocrat sitting in Brussels who's decided to make it a cause célèbre.

You're missing the point - again. Whether Apple are legally avoiding tax or not is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether the EU should be leveraging illegal state aid rules for an entirely different purpose. It's a farce outside the democratic system - just because you like the end product doesn't make it less so. Then again, I suppose you have to buy into the idea of 'unilateral EU action' outside the scope of the democratic process if you were a remain voter, so perhaps we shouldn't be surprised.

[phonics]

Mate, I literally could not give a fuck about your sovereignty one bit. You are stealing billions from other countries just so you can keep a few pennies of it. I live in Switzerland, our entire economy was built off it and other stolen items. It's embarrassing.

[GS]

I suggest you learn the distinction between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland before you start waffling on with second person pronouns.

Once again, this is not the EU's remit. Until Ireland cedes its right to decide its own taxation policy, the EU can and should fuck off. What does it say about the organisation when they treat areas of competency reserved to national parliaments with complete disregard when it suits them? Margrethe Vestager is not some modern day Robin Hood, she's leveraging extant law that has nothing to do with tax policy to backdoor tax harmonisation through because they can't get the votes through the normal and correct processes.

Again - just because you like the outcome does not make it okay. Citizens of member states should be able to assume that the EU will respect the distinction between reserved and ceded areas of sovereignty.

If you want to deal with the multinational transfer pricing, you're certainly not going to do so with this sort of sham decision. If anything, this makes the EU a far more volatile place to invest because you have no clarity anymore on the extant tax arrangements and you could well find yourself getting hit retrospectively for massive tax bills. Tax on decisions and arrangements which are entirely legal in the country in which you're based, and were entirely legal when you made the decision and filed your accounts.

This sort of ludicrous European overreach, and the casual way in which the liberal side would shrug it off because they don't disagree with the outcome, really does reinforce how lucky we are the vote went as did. Imagine the shit they'll be getting up to in the years ahead.

[Lewis]

I think I'm almost with the Europeans on this. Morally, that is. If your rules aren't actually applicable then get lost, but giving one company its own tax code is basically the same as direct state support, and anyone with any belief in free markets should be against this set-up the Micks have.

[Pepe]

I bet 'Brexit' doesn't happen.

[GS]

I think I'm almost with the Europeans on this. Morally, that is. If your rules aren't actually applicable then get lost, but giving one company its own tax code is basically the same as direct state support, and anyone with any belief in free markets should be against this set-up the Micks have.

You'd be hard pressed to argue that this arrangement distorted competition or affected trade between member states. It's a very good European base for American companies irrespective of the tax policies. First and foremost it's English speaking, has a good education system and Dublin is very well connected. Apple have also been based there for decades, so weren't originally attracted to the country because of any 'bespoke' deal.

Ultimately Apple sold across the single market and used provisions legal under European and Irish taxation law to move those sales through Ireland. You can dislike the principle of it, but it was legal when they did it.

If you think it undermines competition for Apple's corporate business (i.e. attracting Apple to base themselves in a Germany, France, Latvia (lol) or wherever) across the bloc, fine. But the way to address that is to introduce laws at a European level which supersede national laws. Retrospective decisions like this - outside the normal parameters - are asking for very serious trouble, particularly when you're nowhere near being able to 'prove' direct state aid.

It provides zero clarity to business, and will just make them hesitant to invest. It should be good for us though, because we can just take all these businesses into the UK post-Brexit with our new reduced CT rate outside the bounds of imperial-style EU overreach.


I bet 'Brexit' doesn't happen.

I was initially sceptical, but I think it will. Canada+ remains my preferred option.

[GS]

771287281034465284

Economic experts getting it wrong again. Who'd have thought it.

[phonics]

I like how you ignore the tweet directly after

771308162271936513

[John Arne]

I hear the Jnr Doctors are planning to strike again? Did they not say a few months ago that the latest deal was the best for everyone, or did I imagine that?

[GS]

I like how you ignore the tweet directly after

771308162271936513

You've missed the point again. It's becoming routine.

I was referring to the economic experts; that is, their forecast for August. They forecast a poor result. They were very wrong. As they have been time and time again. From Reuters:

The recovery far outstripped all economists' forecasts, delivering the strongest signal yet that Britain's economy is performing better than initially feared after the June 23 referendum vote to leave the European Union.


I hear the Jnr Doctors are planning to strike again? Did they not say a few months ago that the latest deal was the best for everyone, or did I imagine that?

Correct. The BMA recommended they accept the deal, the junior doctors voted it down and now they're commencing further strike action. There's not much point really, because the government aren't going to back down and they'll have lost any public support for it. Apparently the vote for further strike action from the BMA council was a 16-14 split, so it'll probably fall apart soon.

Lee - what's your view on this? Given it's quite soon, I assume the necessary contingency planning isn't in place and the only thing this is going to do is shaft patients.

[niko_cee]

On the subject of that PMI thing, whether you believe it or not (it sounds like shit to me), one should note the fact that it apparently fell (slumped/COLLAPSED) after the result of the referendum, was rolled out with great glee and authority by certain parties.

[John Arne]

Indeed. The Guardian take any negative and make a big deal of it, whilst any potential positive is caveated with "just a poll" or some shit.

[Lee]

You've missed the point again. It's becoming routine.

I was referring to the economic experts; that is, their forecast for August. They forecast a poor result. They were very wrong. As they have been time and time again. From Reuters:

The recovery far outstripped all economists' forecasts, delivering the strongest signal yet that Britain's economy is performing better than initially feared after the June 23 referendum vote to leave the European Union.



Correct. The BMA recommended they accept the deal, the junior doctors voted it down and now they're commencing further strike action. There's not much point really, because the government aren't going to back down and they'll have lost any public support for it. Apparently the vote for further strike action from the BMA council was a 16-14 split, so it'll probably fall apart soon.

Lee - what's your view on this? Given it's quite soon, I assume the necessary contingency planning isn't in place and the only thing this is going to do is shaft patients.

Yeah, we are having to cancel pretty much everything.

[GS]

Indeed. The Guardian take any negative and make a big deal of it, whilst any potential positive is caveated with "just a poll" or some shit.

"Despite Brexit" is an important caveat to throw into any positive economic news.


Yeah, we are having to cancel pretty much everything.

Well done, lads. Top, top marks for patient safety.

It's not as if there was even a fresh poll on strike action either. They're idiots.

[GS]

771400828544516096

All is not well in the socialist paradise that is the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela.

[GS]

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/09/01/davidson-now-more-popular-sturgeon-scotland/

In short, 50% don't want another referendum (compared to 37% who do), 54% would vote "No", and Ruth Davidson is now the most popular party leader in Scotland, albeit marginally.

Still, I suppose Wee Jimmy Krankie needs to keep the base agitated when she launches her new drive for independence later.

[niko_cee]

Newsnight had a bit about Greenland last night and one of the eskimo chief chaps donned the Scottish quite hard on their bi-polar desire for independence from the United Kingdom but membership of the European Union.

[Yevrah]

Did he don them by pointing out they hate the English?

[Lewis]

lol at the Greens with their dual-leadership bullshit, as well as Carolina Lucas' ego.

[GS]

I doubt it, but the SNP have moved their rhetoric away from "staying in the EU" because they know it's not going to happen. As I've said previously, if Brexit isn't a sufficient constitutional shock to warrant a stampede to the other side, nothing is ever going to be.

In Jez related news, he's had another dreadful day. There's now a 65 (sixty-five, for fuck sake) point gap between he and Theresa May. It's difficult to know where to start with this, but 'lol' seems a good starting point:

771678764082298880

He's also deeply unpopular in Scotland, where a more left-wing offering was apparently going to win them back all the seats they lost to the SNP in 2015. Still, the gap between the hated Tory new Mrs Thatcher and socialist Jezza is only 55 points so perhaps it could be worse:

771626325786234882

Finally, to prove that satire is now dead, he's had a go at 'after-work drinks'. I agree with him, because they're shit and I never go to them, but:


Jeremy Corbyn has called on companies to end after-work drinks, claiming that "early evening socialisation" benefits men while discriminating against mothers.

The Labour leader made his comments at an early evening event which launched a document detailing how Mr Corbyn's flagship 10 pledges would advance gender equality for women, and tackle gendered violence and harassment.

Following the event, held at Unison's offices, a drinks party was held.

For fuck sake, Jeremy, mate.

[Byron]

I think if after-work drinks were cancelled half of my department would have killed themselves before the month was out.

Fuck off Jez, I like my 5pm pint.

[Lewis]

Keith Vaz. :lol:

[GS]

Fucking hell.

Fucking. Hell.

[Lewis]

It is sort of invading his privacy; but then, it's Keith Vaz. Fuck him.

[Disco]

What's happened? Is it better than him almost crying after the referendum?

[GS]

It's an invasion of privacy, but given his role on the HASC it's probably fair game - http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/keith-vaz-led-inquiry-warns-8763801

And it's Keith Vaz. Fuck him.

[Lewis]

What's happened? Is it better than him almost crying after the referendum?

He's been bumming Romanian rent boys (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/married-mp-keith-vaz-tells-8763805) whilst pretending to be a washing machine salesman called Jim (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/keith-vaz-hid-real-identity-8763804#rlabs=1%20rt$category%20p$1).

[GS]

He's never really sought publicity or actively tried to put himself in the public eye when there's an opportunity to pontificate to the country, so I'm surprised they were able to recogn... Wait.

[Shindig]

Mr Vaz last met two Eastern European prostitutes eight days ago, even though he is chair of a powerful parliamentary group probing vice and drugs.

There's your defence, Keith. 'Research'.

[Raoul Duke]

It worked for Pete Townshend

[GS]

It's a lot worse, apparently: http://order-order.com/2016/09/04/244563/

That'll be him finished in politics, you'd expect.

[Kikó]

Couldn't have happened to a nicer bloke.

[GS]

He's resigned from the Home Affairs Select Committee now, so lol.

[Boydy]

That's pretty hilarious. :D

[Lewis]

A nice easy by-election is just what Jezza needs to unify the party with proof that his message is resonating as well.

[i]'Well, we did say he was a Tory.'
*everyone on Twitter loves it*
*historic defeat*

[Disco]

This is amazing, couldn't happen to a more venal, self serving wanker. Free publicity though Keith, you always liked getting your face on the tele.

[Lewis]

lol he hasn't even resigned yet. He seems like the type to shamelessly cling on until the absolute bitter end, so watch him play the victim and hope it goes away.

[Yevrah]

Makes sense now why he was so distraught over the referendum result.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mZUbfkislY

No more Eastern European rent boys.

[GS]

Excellent point, Yev.

The Spectator also dragged up a piece (http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2014/01/coffee-shots-keith-vaz-personally-welcomes-bulgarian-and-romanian-migrants-to-the-uk/) where they were mocking him for going to meet new Romanian migrants at the airport.

The jokes write themselves, really.

[GS]

David Davis is a top, top lad.

You suspect we'll be leaving the single market and the customs union. Sovereignty is coming. :cool:

[phonics]

An impressive feat to say absolutely nothing for 90 minutes.

[GS]

It's not about what they explicitly say, given it's massively complex. It's about what they're prepared to say at this stage. Given the need to control our own laws and borders, it's clear that's not compatible with single market membership. Ergo we must leave to actually reclaim sovereignty and this appears to be what they are indicating.

It also means rejection of any EEA-centred solution, meaning we're looking at Canada Plus.

[Boydy]

Fuck that. Complete autarky or nothing.

[GS]

Alright, Boydy, mate.

[Boydy]

Yes, GS, mate. Top, top, top. Lads.

[GS]

Banter.

[Lewis]

The Jap[ane]s[e] were getting a bit ahead of themselves the other day. Yeah, lads. You'll build your cars in Spain. Yeah.

[Raoul Duke]

The Jap[ane]s[e] were getting a bit ahead of themselves the other day. Yeah, lads. You'll build your cars in Spain. Yeah.

Yeah I saw that :D

Yearly production level: dos carros

[GS]

The Japanese letter was a right laugh.

I suppose if it was 1942 they'd march a British contingent outside and bayonet them whilst unarmed, so at least they've made some progress.

[phonics]

Fucking hell. If I handed out warnings, I'd be giving one out for that.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Historically accurate, to be fair.

[GS]

It is. On a serious note, you wonder if the British Imperial forces may have been more inclined to fight to the death - particularly in Singapore - if they knew then what we know now.

Separately, the progressive majority that some people like to pretend exists in this country is demonstrating their 'tolerance and compassion' once again:

773219034519052288

773219025794899969

[Bartholomert]

UK building wall to keep illegal immigrants out:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3776897/Britain-build-Great-Wall-Calais-Taxpayers-pay-2million-13ft-high-one-mile-long-concrete-barrier-migrants-out.html

But...but...walls don't work!? Americans are backwards bigots!? Right...!?

[Kikó]

I suppose Mexico are paying for ours as well.

[GS]

It's a small stretch of road where there is a clear and present danger to drivers from migrants 'storming' vehicles on it. That you would draw comparison with THE WALL between America and Mexico is a laugh.

I thought May struggled a bit at PMQs today. Corbyn remains useless, but I suppose it was only the second most embarrassing event of the week after his press conference to announce he had the support of UB40. Still, you expect she'll need to start putting some meat on the bones of the Brexit package soon. Clearly single market membership can't continue, as that's just another way of rejecting the issues that drove the Leave side to victory i.e. free movement and legislative sovereignty.

[Jimmy Floyd]

'Make France Pay' is a slogan I can get behind.

[GS]

'Make France Pay' is a slogan I can get behind.

We should definitely create a sign with this on it draped over the Tomb of the Unknown Collaborator. They'd be seething, especially if it was held up by a couple of lads in burkinis.

There was some polling out today that showed Hollande is finished in terms of the presidential election next year. I suppose the socialist experiment didn't work very well there either.

[Bartholomert]

When I was in Paris most of my co-workers seemed pretty certain the Marine Le Pen was going to win the presidency. Could make things interesting.

[Disco]

UK building wall to keep illegal immigrants out:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3776897/Britain-build-Great-Wall-Calais-Taxpayers-pay-2million-13ft-high-one-mile-long-concrete-barrier-migrants-out.html

But...but...walls don't work!? Americans are backwards bigots!? Right...!?

This one won't work either (although building it is actually feasible), all it will do is move the problem down the road a bit.

[Bartholomert]

Fuck do you think they thought of that? Someone should contact the people implementing the plan...

[Disco]

It's cool, I phoned France earlier.

[Shindig]

Wall will stretch nearly a mile along the main motorway to port of Calais

Like they're leaving it til the last mile to jump on. What they're doing is highway maintenance, mert.

[GS]

When I was in Paris most of my co-workers seemed pretty certain the Marine Le Pen was going to win the presidency. Could make things interesting.

She will get to the second ballot / run-off and then lose to whichever one of Sarkozy or Juppe has ended up there with her.

Sarkozy returning would be great value, if nothing else. I could also get behind Le Pen's plan for 'Frexit', if only to completely piss off the Germans.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Nothing Sarkozy does is great value. He's a bent little midget froggy bastard.

[GS]

I meant we could all get a laugh at his small angry man syndrome. He wears heels, for fuck sake.

[GS]

On a separate note, the junior doctors' union have demonstrated once again that they haven't got a fucking clue. The battle is lost, public support is draining and many in the medical profession are in revolt other further proposed strikes: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/sep/07/bma-in-a-total-mess-over-junior-doctors-dispute-says-insider

Still, I suppose militancy for militancy's sake will keep some of them happy so why not.

[Raoul Duke]

I meant we could all get a laugh at his small angry man syndrome. He wears heels, for fuck sake.

His wife is bangin' though

[Bartholomert]

She will get to the second ballot / run-off and then lose to whichever one of Sarkozy or Juppe has ended up there with her.

Sarkozy returning would be great value, if nothing else. I could also get behind Le Pen's plan for 'Frexit', if only to completely piss off the Germans.

They said that's delusional insulated from reality center-left mainstream media bullshit. There are many people who will vote for Le Pen who won't admit it, especially if Sarkozy is the one she's up against in the 2nd ballot.

I don't think you understand the depths of visceral hatred there is towards Arabs / immigrants.

[GS]

I don't think you understand anything, but there you are.

You'll note that the FN didn't win a single regional election late last year year precisely because everybody ganged up on them when the prospect of actual electoral victories heaved into view. Perhaps the 'visceral hatred' (your claim is no doubt on the back of anecdotal evidence from a couple of acquaintances in Paris) is as virulent as you suggest, but I suspect it is nowhere near sufficient to take Le Pen over the line in a straight run-off.

I think you also need to move past the idea that there's a huge section of the demos who aren't prepared to admit to voting for right-wing populists.

[Lewis]

Which Labour Leader Are You? (http://www.greatbritishpolitics.co.uk/magazine/304-which-labour-leader-are-you.html) I got Neil Kinnock.

[GS]

Hugh Gaitskell.

He must have been far more Tory than he realised.

[Boydy]

I got Clement Attlee. :cool:

[Lewis]

I bet Floyd gets Tony Blair.

[Luke Emia]

I got Tony Blair...

[leedsrevolution]

Jesus Christ I got Gordon Brown.

[Shindig]

So did I.

[John Arne]

Harold Wilson.

[Byron]

Hugh Gaitskell.

He must have been far more Tory than he realised.

Same here. You must be more left wing than you think.

[GS]

Her Majesty's Opposition ripping itself apart on prime time television tonight.

The crowd are almost worse. It's beyond satire at this point. It's a fucking travesty. A genuine travesty.

[Lewis]

I like that all this shit has done is force Jezza to up his game a bit, to the point where he now looks half-professional in his suits.

[Raoul Duke]

May's started trying to force through her fucking jesus shit already: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37314149

Yes, what the world needs is more religious segregation teaching kids mental nonsense

[GS]

It's about offering choice to parents. I don't see why the state should impose unnecessary restrictions on that choice, nor is the idea that because everybody doesn't want / can't have something means that nobody should have it a sensible way of approaching education policy.

[Lewis]

They should dust off the Keith Joseph voucher scheme.

[Raoul Duke]

Because schools should be regulated to ensure kids are given a fair chance at gaining a proper, unbiased, scientific education foundation.

Why not chuck up a load of Muslim faith schools?

[GS]

Separately, we have a 41 point lead for the "Fuck Off" camp if there was ever a border poll here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37309706

[GS]

Because schools should be regulated to ensure kids are given a fair chance at gaining a proper, unbiased, scientific education foundation.

Why not chuck up a load of Muslim faith schools?

That's just unnecessary state interference. It's one of a number of options for parents who wish to avail of it. If they don't want to send their children to a faith school, they won't. If they do, they'll have an option to do so. That's how a free society is supposed to work, not one where the state decides what everybody should think.

[GS]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/10/britains-political-tribes-hinder-labour-chances-of-winning-coalition

"Progressive majority."

[phonics]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsI9GSKWAAA1SQE.jpg

lol

[Lewis]

This (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/12/one-year-on-jeremy-corbyn-has-transformed-british-politics) from the Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury is good.


As a member of the most diverse shadow cabinet in history, I witness every day the change that is happening at the heart of British politics. As we hold the government to account over the Panama Papers and tax avoidance by Google and other multinationals, and put forward a genuine economic alternative, we are winning the argument that austerity is a political choice, not an economic necessity.

Yeah, love.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Has he only been in power for a year? Christ, feels like decades, what a total turnip of a man he is.

[phonics]

This (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/12/one-year-on-jeremy-corbyn-has-transformed-british-politics) from the Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury is good.



Yeah, love.

She needs to get out for calling it sexism having been asked who the French Foreign Minister was.

[phonics]

Cameron has gone. lol.

I remember either a GS or Jimmy post, I think on the old board, proclaiming him as the greatest politician of our generation.

[Boydy]

I don't see what's so 'lol' about him going. Being a backbencher when you've been PM is probably boring as fuck.

[Lewis]

He looks about ten years older than he did in June.

[phonics]

I don't see what's so 'lol' about him going. Being a backbencher when you've been PM is probably boring as fuck.

Less than 3 months from being PM to being a nobody is lol just as it was for Brown.

[Magic]

Difference in quality right there when phonics is pretending to be a political commentator. :harold:

[Pepe]

:D

EDIT: Can we get rid of the 30 seconds rule please?

[Jimmy Floyd]

Cameron has gone. lol.

I remember either a GS or Jimmy post, I think on the old board, proclaiming him as the greatest politician of our generation.

He got his party into government, kept it there, and destroyed all rivals for the foreseeable future. Pretty solid effort.

[phonics]

Difference in quality right there when phonics is pretending to be a political commentator. :harold:

I enjoyed that. KUTGW.

[Yevrah]

He probably wants to whore it in from the after dinner-come-memoirs circuit.

Can't blame him really, even if he did turn out to be more than a bit useless.

[niko_cee]

Yeah, it must be a tough choice. He'll probably double his annual MPs salary for one speech. Even the bother of having to appear to be interested in being a constituency MP wouldn't be worth it.

[Magic]

Isn't he a land owning gajillionaire anyway?

[ItalAussie]

He got his party into government, kept it there, and destroyed all rivals for the foreseeable future. Pretty solid effort.

Then he went and BushBlairClintoned it, and ensured that despite his overall competency, his entire legacy is going to come down to one massive miscalculated failure (certainly from his perspective, even if you disagree).

[elth]

There's probably some kind of pension deal that means he can't use his salary as PM for his pension baseline if he stays on as a backbencher or something.

[ItalAussie]

I do feel like staying on as a backbencher seems like it'd be a bit of fun after you'd finished in office. Take snipes at your political enemies without there really being any consequences for you, ignore the electorate because you're still a party grandee and can get elected indefinitely on name alone, make provocative statements about the things you really cared about but couldn't touch when opinion polls mattered, and snarkily make things difficult for your successor out of low-grade spite.

http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2013/03/21/1226602/056997-tony-abbott.jpg

[Jimmy Floyd]

Ted Heath did the above for about 25 years.

[Raoul Duke]

Cameron clearly wanted out from a long time ago (when he first claimed he wasn't going to run again and got forced into it), and May didn't want him sticking around.

[phonics]

Finally, someone speaking some sense.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsPb5jVXgAA_WST.jpg

[niko_cee]

I like to think his last name is some sort of prejudice.

[GS]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsI9GSKWAAA1SQE.jpg

lol

Why's that 'lol'?

[GS]

Also, I note that Labour and the wider left are in full on SEETHE about the proposed boundary changes: Tristram Hunt talking shit (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/13/boundary-changes-labour-party-seats-mp) and Owen Jones talking even more shit (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/13/boundary-changes-tories-ruthless-gerrymandering).

Labour lose out because they have an in-built advantage. That's just tough shit. It's a fucking independent commission as well, but why let that get in the way of massaging a grievance.

Vote Conservative, lads. It's the only way.

[Boydy]

Is 'massaging a grievance' your new favourite phrase which will quickly become overused?

[Jimmy Floyd]

Massaging the phrase like he massages a grievance.

[Lewis]

Is Owen Jones getting more annoying, or am I just bored of him?

[Spoonsky]

Why's that 'lol'?

'But charging ordinary Brits to visit the Continent when countries such as Germany and France have had wide-open borders for decades is simply absurd.'

I assume.

[Byron]

Also, I note that Labour and the wider left are in full on SEETHE about the proposed boundary changes: Tristram Hunt talking shit (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/13/boundary-changes-labour-party-seats-mp) and Owen Jones talking even more shit (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/13/boundary-changes-tories-ruthless-gerrymandering).

Labour lose out because they have an in-built advantage. That's just tough shit. It's a fucking independent commission as well, but why let that get in the way of massaging a grievance.

Vote Conservative, lads. It's the only way.

Genuine question, why do Labour have an in built advantage?

[niko_cee]

Why's that 'lol'?

I was wondering this.

Whilst the tone of the piece is clearly a bit daft, the idea that Our European Overlords are going to implement some sort of punitive and pointless travel tax/levy is considerably more 'lol'. Imagine what would happen to Spain if we stopped bothering. Same probably goes for Portugal as well. They're fucked enough as it is.

[John Arne]

Surely, if your not a member of the EU, then Visa's (and small fees) will have to be sought for travel - this seems pretty obvious, no? It's not really punitive, it's standard border to border travel.
It does seem a little "shoot yourself in the foot" in terms of travel and tourism, but it makes sense in the grand scheme of international travel.

[ItalAussie]

I think it's a case of someone failing to understand the (fairly obvious) implications of their vote, and compounding that with a rather indignant response.

[Raoul Duke]

Also, Germany and France's borders have been 'wide-open' only to EU citizens. Of which we are no longer a part. Therefore we will be on the same level as people from Tajikistan or Bolivia or whatever - meaning visas and administrative costs.

As Ital says, it's the Sun's typical dumb logic in complaining about something but not following through the logical comparative thought process with regards to actions having consequences.

[John Arne]

There was some British guy in the comment section of a Guardian article having a massive sulk. "I live and work in The Netherlands, and now everything is changing without my consent - how is this fair". Yeah, welcome to living in a democracy mate. Anyways, how hard can it be to get a Work Permit in The Netherlands??

[niko_cee]

Australia have free tourist visas for people from normal countries. Not that visas would really be needed for travel between the UK and the EU (lol at the Irish border). It's a diversionary/non issue, very much like the 'wouldn't have to change our money' argument in favour of the economic disaster that is the Euro.

The US adopted that charge thing a few years ago, but I think that was probably more down to their fanatical homeland security needs (I'm sure they said it was for investment in tourism :cab: ), I don't know how it has worked out in terms of visitor numbers. It probably costs more to run than it yields. I suppose, from the perspective of manufacturing an unnecessary and burdensome cost it probably does fit with the EU model.

[elth]

Presumably the EU will just apply whatever rules apply to other non-EU countries that aren't jerks. Australians can spend three months at a time in the Schengen zone without a visa, I doubt they'll end up being any tougher with people from the UK, but that arrangement is dependant on Australia issuing those free tourist visas to people from the EU.

[Lewis]

If I'd have known that a holiday might cost a tiny bit more I doubt that even my notions of sovereignty, democracy, and history would have enabled me to vote to leave.

Speaking of what might have swayed the vote, El Presidente gave a good 'State of the Union' (lol) address earlier. Yes, he wants an army, a common foreign policy, a weird corps of young people helping refugees, and a boatload (arf) of further integration and regulat... But look at Nigel Farage being agreed with by the French fascists! Is this you, Brexit? The Holocaust, yeah? Is that what this was all about?

[Yevrah]

There's absolutely no chance we're going to need visas to visit Europe if we leave the EU.

On the same level as Tajikstan. :D

[Magic]

We should really just declare war on Europe if they're going to be such absolute cunts about the whole thing. Fuck them.

[Disco]

Do it before they get their army and it'll be a walkover.

[Pepe]

I didn't need a visa to go to Europe so I am sure you will be fine.

[Magic]

Do it before they get their army and it'll be a walkover.

Their Islamic State army? Already got it mate.

[Lewis]

Do it before they get their army and it'll be a walkover.

Even then I reckon we would have them.

[GS]

Is Owen Jones getting more annoying, or am I just bored of him?

He's definitely gone off the deep end - it started with last year's election result, I reckon.


Genuine question, why do Labour have an in built advantage?

Their seats tend to be primarily in constituencies which require significantly fewer votes to win than the Conservatives require. So in 2005, Labour won 35.2% (9.5m) of the vote and took a 66 seat majority. The Conservatives took 36.1% (10.7m) and 36.9% (11.3m) in 2010 and 2015 respectively and wound up with a minority and a 12 seat majority respectively. Ultimately Labour can reach the threshold for majority government far easier than the Conservatives can.

This does raise questions about the merits of FPTP as an electoral system, but the issue was settled in 2011 and is a moot point. You could also argue that Labour are fucked because they've lost their Scottish heartlands. Whilst true, it doesn't change the reality that there is an in-built Labour advantage in the current system. It's not gerrymandering by either party, it's just normal population and demographic changes. But it clearly needs to be addressed, and you can't really have a situation whereby there is such a significant discrepancy between constituency sizes (e.g. 40.4K in Arfon, Wales versus 92K in Ilford South).


Presumably the EU will just apply whatever rules apply to other non-EU countries that aren't jerks. Australians can spend three months at a time in the Schengen zone without a visa, I doubt they'll end up being any tougher with people from the UK, but that arrangement is dependant on Australia issuing those free tourist visas to people from the EU.


I think it's a case of someone failing to understand the (fairly obvious) implications of their vote, and compounding that with a rather indignant response.

I agree with elth here. This isn't an "obvious" implication of the vote. The vote changed the playing field in terms of free movement certainly, but nobody sensible really envisages the EU imposing unnecessary restrictions like this on leisure, business, VFR traffic coming from the UK on a short-term basis. What would it achieve, exactly? There's millions of trips to Spain from the UK for holidays alone, whilst making it more difficult for business trips etc. would be daft. A visa free system for a set period of time is what we'll end up with, probably with work permits where people have a job to go to.

The Spanish would never agree to it for a start, given there was 1.6m British tourists to Spain in October 2015 alone.


Even then I reckon we would have them.

It depends how large the French contingent is. If it's sizeable, you'd just have to fly planes low over them before they'd chuck the guns to the ground and leg it.

[GS]

If I'd have known that a holiday might cost a tiny bit more I doubt that even my notions of sovereignty, democracy, and history would have enabled me to vote to leave.

Speaking of what might have swayed the vote, El Presidente gave a good 'State of the Union' (lol) address earlier. Yes, he wants an army, a common foreign policy, a weird corps of young people helping refugees, and a boatload (arf) of further integration and regulat... But look at Nigel Farage being agreed with by the French fascists! Is this you, Brexit? The Holocaust, yeah? Is that what this was all about?

Juncker really is a fascinating character. Aside from humiliating himself as Luxembourg PM, what's he actually done to get the gig except be a European fundamentalist? Ceding control of foreign policy is the point at which it becomes a federalised system. You're barely independent within the structures as it is, but once you have an EU army and a common foreign policy, what's left exactly? Tax harmonisation is only a few years away too, for fuck sake.

Still, THE PEACE DIVIDEND.

[Lewis]

The line now seems to be that this is 1) a reaction to us leaving; or 2) something which we could have prevented. Either way, how does that mean we were better off in?

[GS]

Well, exactly.

He's a European fundamentalist, so you have to wonder if he's ever going to accept that the majority of people (seemingly) don't buy into the idea as much as he does. Watching the EU Commission (bitter Frenchman), EU Parliament (Jurgen Klopp's angrier twin brother) and the Council jockey for position on the negotiations is going to be great fun.

[GS]

776156583696838657

"Tories... Tories... Tories... Tories... Tories..."

The fucking state of them.

[Lewis]

Owen Smith is the crappest person ever to challenge for the leadership of a relevant party (last bit included to prevent Tim Farron being the obvious winner).

[Magic]

God what a boring tragic cunt.

[Boydy]

776156583696838657

"Tories... Tories... Tories... Tories... Tories..."

The fucking state of them.

The state of the two leadership candidates for the official opposition talking about the party that are in government? What?

[GS]

Owen Smith is the crappest person ever to challenge for the leadership of a relevant party (last bit included to prevent Tim Farron being the obvious winner).

He's fucking woeful.

You're right on Farron, mind you. Isabel Hardman (Lee, mate) mentioned in the Spectator how all the MPs from the north-west desperately try and avoid him on the trains back because he's a fucking tedious cunt.

[GS]

The state of the two leadership candidates for the official opposition talking about the party that are in government? What?

The exchange itself is tragic.

Regardless, "official opposition". That's the SNP these days.

[Lewis]

It's actually the Conservative back benches.

[GS]

It's actually the Conservative back benches.

Let's try and be generous. Angus Robertson has done a great job of looking perpetually aggrieved despite the transparent hypocrisy of his remarks. I reckon he fancies himself as a profound figure in Scottish history.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/14/corbyns-team-mistakenly-issues-list-of-mps-who-undermined-leader?CMP=twt_gu

Jez's team have accidentally released a hit-list of people "undermining the leader". It's all a bit KGB.

[ItalAussie]

"Tories... Tories... Tories... Tories... Tories..."

The fucking state of them.
Are you taking a dig at someone else focussing to a slightly weird degree on the opposite party? Like 80% of your TD posts are about Labour. :D

EDIT: Not that Labour aren't in a mess at the moment, of course. It just struck me as ironic.

[GS]

Are you taking a dig at someone else focussing to a slightly weird degree on the opposite party? Like 80% of your TD posts are about Labour. :D

No, I'm not.

Still, Labour's continued collapse remains the most interesting thing in British politics right now. It's like a case study as to why ideological entrenchment is electorally disastrous. Yet you still have supposedly intelligent people thinking it's all great.

I'd be seething if it was the Tories, mind you. Fuck letting the Lord Blair and his ilk run the country again.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Jezza DESTROYED Theresa May in PMQs today. Vote him back in, you red bell ends.

[Lewis]

She is terrible at that. It's like watching Gordon Brown (who she is basically the Conservative version of now), except he at least had the potential to explode.