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phonics
14-07-2016, 11:24 PM
Big lol at GS thinking even 20% of the voting electorate know who the shadow cabinet are let alone give a fuck.
It would matter as part of an election campaign, as you could demonstrate clearly and unequivocally that he doesn't have his own party behind him. This makes him weak, and therefore an easy target ala Miliband. He was hammered because few people outside core Labour believed he was remotely capable of becoming PM and preferred Wor Dave.
phonics
14-07-2016, 11:29 PM
Yeah, everyone on the left thought 'Ed Miliband, good leader but he needs backup'...
It would reinforce the narrative that would already exist - quite powerfully, I suspect.
"Not only is the leader shit, but look at the state of the people who'd be in government."
It creates a clear sense of division and chaos, and therefore not the sort of power you could trust with power.
phonics
14-07-2016, 11:36 PM
No-one knows who they are or care. 98% of people couldn't name the actual cabinet let alone the shadow one. You are not the average voter.
Again, I think you're misunderstanding the high level point I'm making.
Jimmy Floyd
15-07-2016, 09:40 AM
It just takes enough time for the public to start blaming you for their problems. There's no chance that the status quo lasts forever, no matter what a shambles the opposition is.
If the Tories hold on for another full decade (and I imagine they will, probably easily), then the subsequent election could probably be won by Inanimate Carbon Rod. There comes a point where it really doesn't matter - people blame their problems on politicians, and no matter how well the government do, individuals will still decide that they have problems.
Politics has a short memory.
If someone like Jeremy Corbyn is in charge they won't win ever.
The opposition needs to look like a government-across-the-water, or else they always lose. Nobody of Jeremy Corbyn's calibre, for example, will ever be elected into government.
What has happened previously is that the opposition has, after a while, begun to resemble a government in waiting. This lot, I'm really not sure they will on that sort of timescale, unless something dramatically changes.
Depends what you mean by "someone like Jeremy Corbyn". A simpering ineffective whiny arrogant career activist? Someone like that doesn't have a chance. But equally the vaguely neo-liberal right wing of the Labour party is done as well - if people want Tories they'll vote for the genuine article. The trouble is that the Labour party only has two types of people in it - career agitators with as much idea about leading and persuasion as I do about astrophysics, and middle class aspirational wankers who think being a slightly nicer Conservatives is the best way to improve things.
Labour needs someone who can lead without being a Tory. Corbyn ain't it, but neither is anyone else they're trying to push.
This comes back to what's the point of Labour any more. Everything it was set up to fight for has been achieved now, and it can't find a place for itself on the political spectrum.
Jimmy Floyd
16-07-2016, 07:46 AM
On that logic, elth, the Tories have now been in power for 37 years and counting.
The natural party of government.
Say what you like about Blair, nobody would call him a socialist.
We've covered this ground before, but elections here are won in the centre.
Labour swinging left was a failure last time round, and it's swung further left this time. It's unelectable, and always will be in those circumstances. The plan to have non-voters turn out in droves to vote for Wor Jez is just a comfort blanket for those who think his politics can win. They're probably more likely to believe in deporting non-British people and executing murderers by hanging outside the courthouse than anything Jez might have to say about "a social Europe". But it lets them believe they can win without confronting the reality that they can't.
It means Ital's point, that a party can get in simply by virtue of not being the government here, isn't accurate.
Not until the government has had 15-20 years to really piss everyone off, anyway.
People still aren't going to vote for an opposition who don't look like a competent government in waiting. They certainly wouldn't vote for Corbyn and Socialism. The British electorate have too much sense for that.
Lewis
16-07-2016, 11:12 AM
Elections aren't 'won in the centre'. They're lost on the left.
You wouldn't win with a strong 'right' agenda either, but you'd lose much less badly than a strong left manifesto.
Lewis
16-07-2016, 12:34 PM
I'm going on the basis that there have been four genuinely unexpected election results since the war, and they have all been won with solid right-wing manifestos. Winston Churchill getting back in off the back of the electoral system; Ted Heath and 'Selsdon Man' making Harold Wilson seethe; The Sun winning it for John Major; and Sir Lynton Crosby doing likewise for David Cameron. Every other election has basically been a corrupt and failing government out-living its usefulness. 1950/51 and 1970 are particularly relevant since they were in opposition, but they had to make a stand because the Labour Party was in the process of turning us into East Germany.
Unfortunately for the Labour Party, each prolonged period of Conservative rule (31-40, 51-64, 79-97, 2010-50) shifts the centre, to the point where the current centre would have been a right-wing fantasy ten years ago, let alone forty years ago; so how long can they continue to have a purpose as the centre becomes more and more unpalatable for them? Especially if they can only win elections promising to uphold the status quo, preventing them from transforming society and the state to their own liking.
I think the basic problem is that people read too much into Tony Blair. He got in after eighteen years of a Conservative Party that was increasingly seen as totally corrupt and even more incompetent (although John Major still got more votes than Ed Miliband), and then he ran them into the ground with an economic boom and an army of luvvies as they kicked each other in and obsessed over the Euro. There are very few practical lessons to be learned from those circumstances, and yet all current received wisdom stems from 1997-2007, so is it any wonder that pundits and politicians keep fucking everything up? I would argue that history shows that the best option for the Labour Party is to wait it out until the Conservative Party ballses it right up, at which point you can come in with the sort of mainstream left-wing alternative that somebody less useless than Miliband could probably have sold.
There's some excellent polling out tonight. In short, May hammers Corbyn on most things. She's ahead of him on 'principled' by a point, and only 11 behind on 'understands ordinary people'. Of Labour voters at the 2015 election, 40% (versus 36% for Corbyn) think May would make the better PM. For Lib Dems, it's 62% to 16%.
Polling also suggests that Where Eagles Dare and Bespectacled Welsh Lad have more chance of winning the election than Wor Jez, although Labour supporters generally think he's better. BWL seems to be perceived as a stronger threat than "Angela", which is hardly surprising given she can barely get to the end of the sentence without boring people.
http://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_medium/public/thumbnails/image/2016/07/16/15/c2.png
http://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_medium/public/thumbnails/image/2016/07/16/15/c1.png
Compounding matters, there's an ICM/Sun on Sunday poll which has the Tories ten points ahead of Labour.
I think Owen Smith looks a promising candidate. Whether he's an election winner I'm not sure (I'm only comparing him to Corbyn) but I don't think Labour necessarily need a superstar of a leader to beat May. I reckon she's a Brown of a PM. Like him she'll have an initial burst of popularity but I really find it tough to see her as an electoral asset.
The whole thing comes down to Brexit - whether it's a success, its speed and what other trade deals can be negotiated. Her Premiership hinges entirely on that.
Then again, if Labour run on a platform of a second referendum I imagine they'd get crushed even more than they would now. Smith seems to be big on this idea - he was interviewed on the Daily Politics yesterday and was pushing the 'if you've been missold a proposition, call this number now' line heavily. Brillo took him apart, as you'd expect.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnhKE0KWcAAJ1ze.jpg
The fucking gap in older generations. :|
phonics
17-07-2016, 12:45 AM
Tbf you do come across as a man born in 950.
Jimmy Floyd
17-07-2016, 09:39 AM
Those leader numbers, if they can be replicated over a period of time, are extremely good for May. I didn't think she'd poll that well.
Tbf you do come across as a man born in 950.
Around 1870, more like.
Those leader numbers, if they can be replicated over a period of time, are extremely good for May. I didn't think she'd poll that well.
Agreed. I assume there will be a short honeymoon period, but a competent Labour leader could also narrow some of the direct comparators quite quickly simply by virtue of novelty.
Lewis
17-07-2016, 01:57 PM
It was piss poor on Andrew Marr earlier. Angela Eagle is basing her campaign on being Northern and working class ('I'm a working class woman, and that's what we need at the moment'), whilst Owen Smith wants to argue that 'austerity is right, but we need a plan for prosperity'. Do you reckon their normal conversations are so dull and cliched?
Eagle wants people to vote for her because she's a woman. That's her pitch. The problem being that she's shit.
What I've seen of Smith is encouraging enough. He speaks better than Corbyn or Miliband did (not a huge achievement) but his message is a bit confused. He'd be a steady enough hand until the next election and would prevent annihilation. They can't shift immediately to the right; they need somebody sensible who can lead for a few years of transition. He could probably manage that.
He also appears to have actual policy ideas rather than just wanting Labour to be against Tory stuff. Wouldn't it be nice to have an opposition that wants to be a government?
Apparently Smith has more support amongst MPs, which would be quite embarrassing for Eagle. I don't see how she would stop the rot in terms of an election, but I do think she would allow some sort of 'realignment' within Labour before stepping down ahead of the election. If this leadership campaign, such as it is, has demonstrated anything, it's that she's just not up to it. As Lewis says, it's just appealing to the idea she's "northern working class". No-one cares, Angela.
Owen Smith doesn't strike me as being anywhere near good enough for the leadership, though. His support for a second referendum might help him win the leadership, but he'd be gutted across the country and his arguments for tax cuts and a fifth of a trillion infrastructure investment would make it easy to paint him as another Labour politician who's here to take your money and ruin the economy. He's also Welsh (so EVEL comes into play), and the public at large barely know who he is.
Jimmy Floyd
17-07-2016, 08:09 PM
Just let Corbyn win please for maximum entertainment.
Yevrah
17-07-2016, 08:26 PM
When's the vote?
And he's nailed on, surely.
Lewis
17-07-2016, 08:40 PM
I missed David Davis (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2L7U1izRNA#t=4m29s) on Sky News earlier. :cool:
When's the vote?
And he's nailed on, surely.
The result is announced towards the end of September, I think. Corbyn winning means a split, surely.
I missed David Davis (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2L7U1izRNA#t=4m29s) on Sky News earlier. :cool:
He's great. He has the exact idea that I want to see implemented - some sort of 'Canada Plus' arrangement.
Yevrah
17-07-2016, 10:00 PM
End of September? What a farce.
Jimmy Floyd
17-07-2016, 10:06 PM
David Davis is a complete joke. He talks like Richard Madeley.
Bruiser is a top lad. Dry your eyes.
phonics
17-07-2016, 10:19 PM
I both think David Davis is very good and he's a complete arsehole so he's doing something right.
He hasn't half fucking aged though. I rember him on HIGNFY (remember when that was relevant?) looking positively spritely in comparison.
Lewis
17-07-2016, 10:25 PM
That by-election he forced on an ego trip was crank central, with the smoking ban martyrs and the rape woman, and it forced the old man into voting Liberal Democrat in 2010.
The absolute fucking state of this Trident debate. I read that the SNP stood to applaud Angus Robertson. You have to laugh, really.
On a separate note, let's all congratulate the progressive majority for this:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnqvpUjWgAAGzgl.jpg
Conservatives are fucking mint. Love them. Top top lads.
The trident debate was cringe. Trying to listen to Corbyn (who was extremely dull "I went to a conference once and..zzz") being heckled by anyone who could. The house is mental at times.
Lewis
18-07-2016, 07:16 PM
Edward Stanley was a Whig at the time.
Boydy
18-07-2016, 07:46 PM
Letting people buying their council houses probably wasn't a good thing.
Lewis
18-07-2016, 07:49 PM
Those that did felt out of place at work.
Boydy
18-07-2016, 07:50 PM
This is exactly what I was saying to Igor about.
Shindig
18-07-2016, 07:55 PM
Could probably counter that list with some shit policies as well, mind.
Lewis
18-07-2016, 08:02 PM
This is exactly what I was saying to Igor about.
You have your horizons broadened by Facebook chats with him, and then you come back here... You just can't catch a break.
I didn't bother checking, but it seems to have been something Gideon was throwing about to justify why he's a top lad.
It's passed the house with a margin of 355.
It was almost worth the Scots fighting to the last drunk man. It's a weird one, really, because the SNP lads advocate membership of NATO where you're apparently happy for the Americans to have the capacity to deploy tactical nuclear weapons. Top, top thinking, lads. They haven't a fucking clue, really.
niko_cee
18-07-2016, 09:30 PM
How can a party leader end up voting against what is apparently the official party line?
KUTGW Jez. :thbup:
Magic
18-07-2016, 09:31 PM
It's passed the house with a margin of 355.
It was almost worth the Scots fighting to the last drunk man. It's a weird one, really, because the SNP lads advocate membership of NATO where you're apparently happy for the Americans to have the capacity to deploy tactical nuclear weapons. Top, top thinking, lads. They haven't a fucking clue, really.
And the last one voted in favour. :harold:
Only 47 of his comrades followed him over the top in the banzai charge.
And the last one voted in favour. :harold:
What?
Magic
18-07-2016, 09:34 PM
58/59 voted against
Lewis
18-07-2016, 09:37 PM
I managed about twenty minutes of the tedious prepared statements. It was mainly some bloke droning on about how Clement Attlee got the ball rolling and... Yeah, great, lad.
58/59 voted against
Opinion polling shows a statistical dead heat in Scotland on it, so it's all a bit lol.
The SNP lot are a right shambles in the Commons. Standing to applaud Angus fucking Robertson. I mean, for fuck sake. Get a grip and at least respect the place.
I managed about twenty minutes of the tedious prepared statements. It was mainly some bloke droning on about how Clement Attlee got the ball rolling and... Yeah, great, lad.
Wor Jez outright refusing to read out party policy was good fun.
May answering "Yes" without hesitation when asked if she'd press the button and the SNP feigning outrage. What would the point if she said 'no'? Exactly, lads.
niko_cee
18-07-2016, 09:46 PM
Time for the government to table some swingeing Irn Bru and Buckfast tax proposals.
755155521418715141
:harold:
For fuck's sake. It's getting beyond funny, really. We do actually need an opposition.
They're just going to keep challenging him until Theresa fucking May wins a 300 seat majority and starts spying on all my internet porn habits.
It's over, Lee. The membership want a different PLP, and the PLP want a different membership. If he wins again, it simply can't continue.
It will because they won't have the bottle to split. He'll go when he gets battered in a General Election, after blaming everybody but himself.
The enforcers around him won't let him resign - if he goes, the game is up for the hard left.
I registered for Labour to vote for Corbyn.
Why the Corbyn hate, Lee?
We have a live one, lads. Make sure you engage in the new politics, or you'll scare it away.
Because he's never going to win an election.
Whether right or left, you just have to compromise to get some of what you want. Blair is the perfect example. Centrist leader, because it isn't possible to win elections without attracting people who have previously voted for the other major party, but chucked in stuff like the minimum wage, winter fuel allowance, tax credits, Sure Start centres etc. Recognisably left of centre initiatives.
By voting for Corbyn you are guaranteeing a Tory government at the next election. Most people are in the centre. Most people don't want what he wants. He cannot win.
I don't 'hate' him. I vote pretty consistently Lib Dem. But the bloke is destroying the main centre left party in this country and he doesn't give a shit. People talk bollocks about how 'decent' he is. He isn't. He is of the view that Tory government is harmful to most of the country. And yet he guarantees the continuation of Tory government. He is a self-absorbed cunt on a power trip.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/07/lilian-greenwood-mp-jeremy-corbyn-continually-undermined-me-job-i-loved
The state of this, for fuck's sake. The leadership skills. :face:
Because Labour have been doing great with their centrist leaders?
Time for change. He actually offers something different and I think you'll be surprised by the voting numbers, but we'll see.
Because Labour have been doing great with their centrist leaders?
Time for change. He actually offers something different and I think you'll be surprised by the voting numbers, but we'll see.
Surprised based on what? Does he have some magic fairy dust? Look at the polls. He is performing worse than any Labour leader ever has. The polls tell us that a MAJORITY OF FUCKING LABOUR VOTERS think he'd be a worse PM than the Tory leader. And the young people who 'support' him don't even vote.
And the last centrist Labour leader with any semblance of charisma led the party to three consecutive election victories, for fuck's sake, so yeah, they do pretty well. Ed Miliband moved a bit to the left and got battered. So Labour then decides that moving further left is the answer. Jesus fucking Christ.
Even recent history tells us that any of the parties moving away from the centre get a sound thrashing. Hague. IDS. Howard. Miliband. But somehow history doesn't apply to Corbyn?
Oh, and he looks like a tramp. People aren't voting for a tramp.
Lewis
18-07-2016, 10:55 PM
Michael Howard didn't really get a 'sound thrashing'.
Michael Howard didn't really get a 'sound thrashing'.
He did by today's standards. Labour's majority was reduced mainly because of Iraq. It certainly wasn't anything to do with Howard who just spent the election campaign banging on about gypsies and having to slap Oliver Letwin about a bit.
Because Labour have been doing great with their centrist leaders?
Time for change. He actually offers something different and I think you'll be surprised by the voting numbers, but we'll see.
You can't seriously believe this.
Yevrah
19-07-2016, 12:21 AM
Glad sense was seen on trident.
I'm far from a warmonger, but getting rid of it would have been absolute lunacy.
Yevrah
19-07-2016, 12:39 AM
I see Corbyn's been married three times, which I find to be an interesting insight into his suitability for high public office.
Yevrah
19-07-2016, 12:42 AM
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/07/lilian-greenwood-mp-jeremy-corbyn-continually-undermined-me-job-i-loved
The state of this, for fuck's sake. The leadership skills. :face:
There are examples of this sort of stuff everywhere.
Here's another.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-labour-shadow-cabinet-thangam-debbonaire-cancer-a7141341.html
Davgooner
19-07-2016, 06:46 AM
Glad sense was seen on trident.
I'm far from a warmonger, but getting rid of it would have been absolute lunacy.
Everyone round BAE's gaff for a piss-up.
I see Corbyn's been married three times, which I find to be an interesting insight into his suitability for high public office.
I'm more worried that he's shagged Diane Abbott. That's some horrific judgement.
Davgooner
19-07-2016, 02:03 PM
Magic's got the sex tape if you're interested.
Magic
19-07-2016, 02:03 PM
I bet Abbot only goes for white cock.
Boydy
19-07-2016, 04:30 PM
Angela Eagle's dropped out.
Davgooner
19-07-2016, 05:15 PM
:lol:
She wasn't the answer.
You have to laugh, really.
Smith might benefit from being a nobody, because then the left can project onto him in sufficient numbers for him to just about get past Wor Jez.
Raoul Duke
19-07-2016, 06:29 PM
Are we sure he isn't just Miliband in comedy glasses?
Ed has probably single-handedly broken the left, when you think about it.
The prospect of Ed being PM, or being propped up by the SNP, were two key reasons why the Tories won the majority they did. Winning the majority meant they had to implement the manifesto pledge for an EU referendum. He brought in the rules that has saddled Labour with this shit, and all its consequent impacts like the lol-worthy Jezza EU campaign and now record lows in the polls.
He's still banging on about "climate change" too. You'd think he'd be too embarrassed to show his face in public.
Because he's never going to win an election.
Whether right or left, you just have to compromise to get some of what you want. Blair is the perfect example. Centrist leader, because it isn't possible to win elections without attracting people who have previously voted for the other major party, but chucked in stuff like the minimum wage, winter fuel allowance, tax credits, Sure Start centres etc. Recognisably left of centre initiatives.
By voting for Corbyn you are guaranteeing a Tory government at the next election. Most people are in the centre. Most people don't want what he wants. He cannot win.
I don't 'hate' him. I vote pretty consistently Lib Dem. But the bloke is destroying the main centre left party in this country and he doesn't give a shit. People talk bollocks about how 'decent' he is. He isn't. He is of the view that Tory government is harmful to most of the country. And yet he guarantees the continuation of Tory government. He is a self-absorbed cunt on a power trip.
Corbyn will attract new voters, get votes from the many new Labour members whom he was the reason for signing up, and may bring some of the smaller parties' voters back to Labour. If he didn't win an election he might inspire some sort of movement away from the Tories/Labour trying to be the Tories. Also, he genuinely cares about things and is as far removed from the poison political world as I have seen.
Disco
19-07-2016, 07:02 PM
What is it about his tenure thus far that leads you to believe he can run the kind of campaign that might do that? Let alone get behind the kind of policies it would require. Everything I've seen suggests to me that he would have trouble running a temperature let alone an opposition.
Mainly him actually standing up to the Conservatives. Last election, for every problem that was put forward to the Tories, they got away with blaming the Labour government that ended five years previously. Corbyn will try and fight.
If he's named Labour leader again, I'd hope the MPs actually support him.
Regardless, I can't name any Labour MP who would do a better job, can you?
Disco
19-07-2016, 07:11 PM
You don't fight your opponents in the new politics.
Corbyn will attract new voters, get votes from the many new Labour members whom he was the reason for signing up, and may bring some of the smaller parties' voters back to Labour. If he didn't win an election he might inspire some sort of movement away from the Tories/Labour trying to be the Tories. Also, he genuinely cares about things and is as far removed from the poison political world as I have seen.
He isn't going to attract new voters. He has lost votes for the party. Opinion polls aren't just made up. Even if you are dubious about voting intention numbers his approval ratings are appalling. And leadership approval ratings are historically the most accurate indicator of what will happen at an election.
The new Labour members are mainly young. Young people do not vote. Read reports from existing Labour members. These new members aren't out there knocking doors, canvassing for votes. They want the power but not the responsibility. Read the accounts of recently resigned shadow cabinet ministers. He can't lead. He refuses to meet people, for fuck's sake. It's laughable that Corbyn supporters try to paint the resigning MPs as Blairite too. Angela Eagle a Blairite? We are through the looking glass now.
Do you think the leaders of other parties don't care about things? Of course they do. They just happen not to agree with your worldview. Corbyn doesn't have a monopoly on caring.
Mainly him actually standing up to the Conservatives. Last election, for every problem that was put forward to the Tories, they got away with blaming the Labour government that ended five years previously. Corbyn will try and fight.
If he's named Labour leader again, I'd hope the MPs actually support him.
Regardless, I can't name any Labour MP who would do a better job, can you?
They won't support him and they shouldn't. He is destroying the party.
Corbyn is fighting fuck all. He is letting the Tories do whatever they want without any opposition.
Umunna, Jarvis, Starmer, Smith, Cooper, Johnson, Benn, Burnham, Kendall. Not all would be good exactly. But every one of them would be miles better than Corbyn. Ed Miliband was miles better than Corbyn and he was basically a retard.
I don't even know why I'm bothering. Corbyn supporters have already decided that numbers and history don't apply to the scruffy cunt. I love a scruff as well. He has even turned me against scruffy people.
Corbyn is fighting fuck all. He is letting the Tories do whatever they want without any opposition.
What do you expect him to do differently?
You follow politics more closely than I do, so I'm happy to hear your thoughts.
The new Labour members are mainly young. Young people do not vote.
I just can't see the reality of someone going to the trouble of registering, and then not voting? I know a lot of young people don't vote - they aren't the ones who have become new members.
What do you expect him to do differently?
You follow politics more closely than I do, so I'm happy to hear your thoughts.
He needs to attack them and present credible alternative policies. He won't attack them and he doesn't have any credible alternative policies. But mainly he needs to resign. He can't do the job. He lost a vote of no confidence of his parliamentary party. That's it. Done.
I just can't see the reality of someone going to the trouble of registering, and then not voting? I know a lot of young people don't vote - they aren't the ones who have become new members.
Look at the numbers. He is shedding support.
Yevrah
19-07-2016, 07:27 PM
I don't even know why I'm bothering. Corbyn supporters have already decided that numbers and history don't apply to the scruffy cunt. I love a scruff as well. He has even turned me against scruffy people.
He must have done, but at this rate you're probably not a million miles away from voting Tory, so you may as well embrace it.
He must have done, but at this rate you're probably not a million miles away from voting Tory, so you may as well embrace it.
I'm as far as I ever have been from voting Tory.
Yevrah
19-07-2016, 07:36 PM
Keep telling yourself that. :nodd:
The old Lee wouldn't have given a shit had Corbyn turned up in a bin bag.
I'm as far as I ever have been from voting Tory.
What do you think a potential Labour leader needs to focus on most, out of interest?
And glad to hear.
Magic
19-07-2016, 07:39 PM
ISIL has turned Lee from a muzzie loving liberal to GS. :drool:
Yevrah
19-07-2016, 07:39 PM
'Muzzie loving liberal' made me chortle, I must admit.
Raoul Duke
19-07-2016, 07:46 PM
He's utterly incapable of constructing a cohesive attack against the Government on anything that matters to the public. No-one gives a fuck about Trident, or Palestine, and are barely cognisant on climate change.
People care about immigration, terrorism, house prices, jobs and health/education.
Labour cannot articulate a narrative around the topics that people can buy into, at a time when the Tories are busy fucking every single one of those things up at a cataclysmic rate: burying the NHS, privatising education, building fuck all homes and selling everything that's here to Asians/Arabs, turning the place into a tax haven for their rich mates and sticking their cocks into pigs. And giving Boris a job.
I think Reg is making the very serious mistake of confusing the membership with the electorate. Nobody gives a fuck about the membership - their support is a given. It's your 'Nuneaton Test' - whether Labour's policies and leadership will win key swing voters to the level required to deliver a majority.
On a parliamentary level, I would say the following are key points why MPs simply can't support him. Even if he wins again, they couldn't - in good faith - support his continued leadership of the party.
1) He can't unite the party behind him. It's entirely reasonable that people won't serve in his cabinet. Corbyn and McDonnell, as leader and shadow chancellor, set the direction and they hold views which the majority of the PLP can't support. Being in the shadow cabinet requires collective responsibility and advocacy of those positions in public.
2) He's a poor leader of the parliamentary party. There are stories this week from Lilian Greenwood and another MP from Bristol which demonstrate he is genuinely incompetent at the mechanics of running a major party, ensuring there's a consistent message, and treating his MPs and shadow ministers with a basic degree of respect. He won't even let the PLP speak to him, and seems to go into actively into hiding when the going get tough. It's incompetent, and quite discourteous to people whose jobs could disappear if he continues to be this shit.
3) He's been dreadful at PMQs. He might get the occasional blow in, but Cameron was great at the despatch box and Corbyn routinely missed several open goals to score points e.g. when IDS resigned and he didn't ask about it. PMQs is your chance to press the attack, and he's been singularly incapable of doing so effectively since he took over the leadership.
4) He can't demand loyalty from the PLP. He has rebelled against the whip over 500 times since being elected to parliament in 1983, and it's therefore transparently hypocritical for him to subsequently demand loyalty from anybody.
5) He openly defies official party policy on Trident. He demands people respect 'the mandate', and then openly defies it when it suits him.
MPs aren't stupid, and they can see opinion polling which shows May has a 39 point lead over him on 'who makes the best PM', that May/Hammond have a 37 point lead over Corbyn/McDonnell on who are the best team to run the economy and that they're as much as ten points behind on voting intention. He has the worst approval ratings of any opposition leader after a year.
The membership will vote for him regardless. He's failing dreadfully outside areas which aren't going to vote Labour anyway. This is the crux of the matter, and the reasons why the MPs won't support him are self-evident.
I imagine you're seeing videos of the PMQs from different sources than I am, but each time I see them Corbyn presents basic questions to which he never gets an honest or straight answer. It's difficult to do much more than he has been, from what I've seen. There is no etiquette or maturity in the House of Commons, the heckling and joking is schoolboy stuff.
You have to play the hand you're dealt in terms of how the Commons works. Jez and his 'new politics' isn't going to change anything.
The point of PMQs is to press the attack on the government in areas of weakness. Corbyn went with questions which someone of David Cameron's experience and skill could effectively swat away, rendering the whole thing pointless. It's theatrics, yes, but it's a key component of holding the government to account and it tends to get major news coverage. He refused to ask questions where they should (and would) be asked by a competent opposition doing its job. He's been shit at it, frankly.
I assume you don't dispute the other points above, otherwise you'd have picked up on them.
Keep telling yourself that. :nodd:
The old Lee wouldn't have given a shit had Corbyn turned up in a bin bag.
It's true. There is no 'old Lee'. Other than a brief blip when I was at uni I've pretty much always been a Lib Dem.
I don't care that Corbyn is a scruff. I care that he is leaving the country without an opposition.
It's true. There is no 'old Lee'. Other than a brief blip when I was at uni I've pretty much always been a Lib Dem.
I don't care that Corbyn is a scruff. I care that he is leaving the country without an opposition.
This fascinates me. Why are you a Lib Dem? You should be an honest self-interested Tory on your wage. Better self-interest than self-righteousness.
I imagine you're seeing videos of the PMQs from different sources than I am, but each time I see them Corbyn presents basic questions to which he never gets an honest or straight answer. It's difficult to do much more than he has been, from what I've seen. There is no etiquette or maturity in the House of Commons, the heckling and joking is schoolboy stuff.
PMQs is complete bollocks. Nobody cares about it and most people who vote aren't watching it.
PMQs is complete bollocks. Nobody cares about it and most people who vote aren't watching it.
Perhaps, but it feeds the media narrative of whether a government is ON THE ROPES over a particular policy. It's one of the few times you get an exchange that will make it onto 10pm news. It won't swing your Nuneaton voter in and of itself, but it builds momentum and narrative.
I assume it gets some coverage in the tabloids too, perhaps with a witty pun-based headline, but fuck knows.
This fascinates me. Why are you a Lib Dem? You should be an honest self-interested Tory on your wage. Better self-interest than self-righteousness.
I'm not into self-interest. I'm comfortable regardless of which party is in government. When it comes to elections I look at the manifestos and decide on that basis. The Lib Dems most closely represent my views on stuff. The Tories usually finish just above UKIP.
I assume you don't dispute the other points above, otherwise you'd have picked up on them.
You guys follow politics a lot more closely than I do, so I can't really argue with that particular post.
I still find him refreshing and a welcome change in that he stands up for what he believes in. And that may get in the way of uniting the party. Maybe I'm not too accepting of compromise.
Do you think any other potential Labour leader can do anything meaningful? I have the unshakable feeling that one of the others were made leader then it'd be a painfully predictable election. (Not that I know a lot about every MP.)
The next election, with current leaders, is the most predictable since 2001. Massive Tory majority. And I think May is seriously shit.
Labour have done untold damage to the 'brand' over the last eight or nine years. One of the reasons the Tories were able to make the economy point stick was because Wor Ed took the party left and refused to accept Labour had spent too much. This was said to be a key moment in the campaign last time out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IldMnsymDo0
It made it far too easy for the Tories to attack them as a party you couldn't trust on the economy. It's a long way back, but Corbyn will see the party routed if he stays. The problem, of course, is that Corbyn, Brexit etc. have exposed the gulf that exists between the membership, the PLP and the traditional Labour voter.
A centrist leader who mobilises what talent Labour have and gets a clear, coherent message out might stem the rot somewhat. But it's inescapable truth that Corbyn is leading you to electoral oblivion. If you genuinely don't want a Tory government, then you literally cannot support him at this stage.
How reliable are the leadership polls / are they really any better than election polls?
YouGov have called the major leadership elections since the turn of the century to within a point or two, so their polling is generally considered to be quite reliable.
Boydy
19-07-2016, 09:11 PM
Where has this 'Wor Jez/Ed' thing come from?
Momentum have changed their legal name to "Jeremy for Labour", confirming themselves as the world's shittest personality cult.
They're actually fucking mental. Every one of the bastards angling for safe seats as well, the power greedy cunts.
They're actually fucking mental. Every one of the bastards angling for safe seats as well, the power greedy cunts.
Some of the stories from CLPs, where their activists have turned up and started to shout people down, would unnerve you. You're right - they're fucking mental.
Raoul Duke
19-07-2016, 09:27 PM
I still find him refreshing and a welcome change in that he stands up for what he believes in. And that may get in the way of uniting the party. Maybe I'm not too accepting of compromise.
The problem is that what he believes in is incompatible with what most people care about. I have no idea on his policies for most key issues.
Shindig
19-07-2016, 09:31 PM
He was against Trident and for Remain. GOOD GOING, CORBYNHO!
Corbyn was for Remain. :harold:
Lewis
19-07-2016, 09:34 PM
Jess 'Gobshite' Phillips appeared to suggest that she will resign the party whip if Jezza wins the leadership contest (albeit whilst being vague enough to BOTTLE IT), so I might pay the twenty-five quid to ensure that he does in the hope that we never hear from her again.
Jez is a self-righteous internationalist, and I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that he hates Britain.
Jess 'Gobshite' Phillips appeared to suggest that she will resign the party whip if Jezza wins the leadership contest (albeit whilst being vague enough to BOTTLE IT), so I might pay the twenty-five quid to ensure that he does in the hope that we never hear from her again.
I believe she's the one who suggested that things like Cologne happen every weekend 'in my constituency' in Birmingham.
Great work, Jess, love.
Eagle was always such an odd leadership contender. Funny how absolutely none of the people who lost last time are willing to challenge him again.
Been reading a lot of interesting things about how Corbyn's opponents aren't attempting to speak to his supporters, they just belittle them, and how that's basically guaranteed to get him re-elected.
Boydy
20-07-2016, 08:57 AM
Angela Eagle was never going to be Labour leader. You can guess why
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/19/angela-eagle-labour-leader-gender-party-patriarchy?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
I'm pretty sure it was just because she was a bit shit.
Boydy
20-07-2016, 08:58 AM
Eagle was always such an odd leadership contender. Funny how absolutely none of the people who lost last time are willing to challenge him again.
Been reading a lot of interesting things about how Corbyn's opponents aren't attempting to speak to his supporters, they just belittle them, and how that's basically guaranteed to get him re-elected.
Got any links to the Corbyn stuff?
I'll link it next time I come across it, sure.
Raoul Duke
20-07-2016, 05:55 PM
Corbyn set out on the Orgreave inquiry – a strong cause, but it instantly cast him back into the 1980s, his natural home decade.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/20/theresa-may-first-pmq-prime-minister-questions-panel
What the fuck is he doing? Idiot
May annihilated him today. It was one of his better showings as well, which makes it worse.
Angela Eagle was never going to be Labour leader. You can guess why
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/19/angela-eagle-labour-leader-gender-party-patriarchy?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
I'm pretty sure it was just because she was a bit shit.
I don't think the premise of the article is unfair, but I would agree that a large part of it was because Eagle was shit. She took the bullet for the party, and the Corbyn lot were never going to forgive her for that. Fair play to her for 'stepping up', but it probably made sense for her to step aside.
The Tories don't bother with this sort of identity politics - pink buses and all-women shortlists and the like - and they've had two women PMs, who got the job on account of just being good at what they do.
If you look at Tory leaders - Thatcher was the daughter of a greengrocer, Major a working class type from Brixton, Cameron's an Etonian and May's a vicar's daughter. That's diversity, and it shows they don't really care what people's background is - it's who's best equipped for the job in hand. You'd never get an Etonian in charge of Labour nowadays, because the membership simply wouldn't accept the idea that someone from a 'privileged' background would 'understand what it's like'.
It tends to be the centre left or left who get worked up about this sort of thing, as if it's something worth arguing about and a worthwhile issue. The centre right or right tend to be far more pragmatic.
Lewis
20-07-2016, 08:26 PM
Who was it that said that whilst all-women shortlists are an easy way of increasing the number of ladies, their very nature will lumber you with a load of mostly mediocre ladies that might have sunk in a properly competitive selection process? It was on Twitter somewhere. I'm losing it.
Who was it that said that whilst all-women shortlists are an easy way of increasing the number of ladies, their very nature will lumber you with a load of mostly mediocre ladies that might have sunk in a properly competitive selection process? It was on Twitter somewhere. I'm losing it.
It would make sense. It also creates the unfortunate impressive for the women who are put up as the party's nominee that they're only there because they're a woman, and not necessarily because they're actually any good.
On a separate note, I read that that one of the lines in May's first speech to the Commons (in relation to grammar schools, I think) was that she absolutely rejected the premise that if everybody couldn't have something then nobody should have it. She's going to be great.
mikem
20-07-2016, 09:24 PM
Is part of the problem for opposition parties in a parliamentary system simply that there is nothing to do or achieve. Wouldn't you lose most of your best people to the private sector or academia because their primary motivation is achievement?
Bartholomert
20-07-2016, 09:55 PM
Yo Theresa May seems fucking dope.
Boydy
20-07-2016, 09:57 PM
Did you hear her speech outside Downing Street when she was moving in? I thought she'd be a bit too left wing for you.
Magic
20-07-2016, 10:05 PM
She's just another step the white western male has taken towards complete annihilation.
Bartholomert
20-07-2016, 10:16 PM
Did you hear her speech outside Downing Street when she was moving in? I thought she'd be a bit too left wing for you.
I saw her roast the fuk out of Corbyn above which was an encouraging start, but feel free to link me I'm still feeling out my opinion on her.
Lewis
20-07-2016, 10:24 PM
Is part of the problem for opposition parties in a parliamentary system simply that there is nothing to do or achieve. Wouldn't you lose most of your best people to the private sector or academia because their primary motivation is achievement?
Wouldn't a failing party be just as attractive a proposition to career-minded mentalists in providing them with a better chance to progress amidst the nonentities and uncertainties? The Conservative Party managed to recruit lots of impressive people (background-wise) when they were in the wilderness.
Maybe the Labour Party is inherently fucked from a recruitment perspective. Originally it was made up of 1) London Wankers; 2) over-educated tossers; and 3) self-made working men coming through the trade unions. It got an artificial boost after the Second World War when a generation of grammar school-educated captains convinced themselves that planning was fantastic, but, in a market economy with a diminished sense of class solidarity, they break for the Conservatives, and the pointlessness of the unions is reflected in their leadership. Therefore, all you've got left is the London Wankers and the over-educated tossers (who, like Boyd, are liable to be right chippy bastards due to having to compensate for the diminished class solidarity).
Boydy
20-07-2016, 10:30 PM
I saw her roast the fuk out of Corbyn above which was an encouraging start, but feel free to link me I'm still feeling out my opinion on her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDyZ8trge2E
mikem
20-07-2016, 10:45 PM
Lewis, I'm trying to express the difference between people who are motivated by making rank and people who are motivated by saying "I fucking did that." Your best people are not people who want to make rank.
Bartholomert
20-07-2016, 10:58 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDyZ8trge2E
No, this is where you're mistaken. Conservatives believe in all the same social goals bleeding heart liberals are so passionate about, the difference is we measure the effectiveness of public policy proposals not on the intent of those who sponsor relevant bills, but on outcomes grounded in empirical evidence. Jewish prosperity enabled by a fair, capitalist framework did far more to quell anti-Semitism, than any Civil Rights Act did to cure racism.
She gets that its important to communicate that very vital point. I like her.
The absolute state of this Momentum representative on Daily Politics.
Expect it to be ripped apart but here's a hypothetical if anyone can be arsed:
If Corbyn is picked as Labour leader again, he wins the election and becomes PM while not many of his MPs support him, what would happen?
Would the MPs eventually get behind him even if they thought he was a terrible leader? Would he have trouble enforcing his policies?
Shindig
21-07-2016, 10:02 PM
That element of sabotage will just take aim at making the PM spot vacant.
You're more likely to see Lord Lucan win Wimbledon, but let's humour the improbable.
He would be invited to form a government, but he wouldn't be able to form said government if he couldn't command the confidence of the house. He wouldn't have the confidence of the house if his MPs didn't support him, ergo he couldn't be the PM.
However, if Labour did - somehow - fluke their way to an election win, I suspect most of his MPs would buckle down because "mandate, lads". They fucking love power too, so they're not going to turn down government positions.
It's likely that there would be several backbench rebellions over some of his key policies, and he'd probably lose a lot of votes. His effective governing majority would probably end up being very small, if not non-existent, requiring a 'confidence and supply' arrangement with smaller parties like the SNP or the Lib Dems. This would cause decreased confidence, and the almost certain dissolution of parliament with a majority vote for 'no confidence' in the government under the terms of the FTPA.
The problem, however, is that this is too improbable to make exploring it further worthwhile. He can't win.
Food for thought. I'm going to keep following Owen Smith and see what I think.
Also, hasn't been discussed yet:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36859550
niko_cee
21-07-2016, 10:17 PM
I rather enjoyed Jezza's pitch today, in a morbid sort of way. It really is a marvel what a dull and humourless man he appears to be. You'd have thought that a lifetime of rebellion would have at least made him interesting.
The scenes when he gets back in are going to be immense. Conservatives redraw the boundaries, and he parachutes a bunch of his loyalist nutters into affected areas. It has electoral cataclysm written all over it even if you ignore the wider picture of him being a complete farce of a 'leader'.
You'd be better off hypothesizing about what would happen if that ficus won the US presidential election. It should probably run. It'd have a chance.
Deselection remains the holy grail for the hard left, because it's their way of scaring the soft left and the Labour centre into accepting the status quo. The boundary review would be an apt time for them to start booting out the likes of 'Chuka' and parachuting in mentals.
It's hardly a surprise that Jezza is threatening it - he'd fucking love it. It's also a big reason why the rest of them want him gone. You can't exactly fight the Tories effectively when you're busy trying to purge heresy from your own side.
Lewis
21-07-2016, 10:26 PM
I think MPs should have to be re-selected. There should be open primaries as well. If you can't convince the local activists to support you then fuck off.
Bartholomert
21-07-2016, 10:32 PM
Deselection = Primaries? That should exist in a democracy.
I'd rather not end up in a situation like America, where MPs end up spending half their time engaged in fund-raising or wheel greasing just to make sure they're re-selected.
Have a process in place whereby someone can be de-selected or challenged if they've been actively shit or fiddled expenses etc. But beyond that, I don't see much need to amend the present system.
Boydy
21-07-2016, 10:35 PM
I think MPs should have to be re-selected. There should be open primaries as well. If you can't convince the local activists to support you then fuck off.
Yep.
It'd be nice if a load of Labour careerists who were previously given safe seats got deselected and people actually from the areas were elected. Probably won't happen but it'd be nice.
I still think there should be a residency requirement of about five years before you're allowed to stand for a constituency. Labour should even introduce it for their own candidates. I reckon it'd go a long way to helping the whole 'out of touch elites' view of politicians that people currently have (and you can hardly blame them).
niko_cee
21-07-2016, 11:04 PM
When did This Week become a sketch show?
756745126874116096
Useless.
There's about 40* people in most party constituency branches, I'm sure they can organise a vote once every five years to make sure they still all like their nominated dickhead.
*probably an exaggeration
Perhaps, but activists are usually nutters and the last thing you want are a series of candidates palatable to the activists and who will make decisions to appease said activists to secure further selection down the line. I much prefer a centralised party view on this - the democratic part comes from the whole constituency at the election itself.
Jez is campaigning today and claimed that the media had refused to report good news for Labour - that they'd taken Thanet from UKIP. It turns out it was a *parish* council by-election. I know we joke, but fucking hell mate.
I mean I don't care either way - central nominations versus branch elections are fine, it's up to the voters to decide either way, my point is more that the difficulty of organising a nomination or confirmation vote before each election shouldn't be a constraint, 'coz it's easy to get 40 people together in a room in Shropshire compared to running a national or statewide campaign in the US.
I personally prefer the more democratic approach, it works fairly well for the most part here and I believe in increasing democratic legitimacy wherever possible.
I think it would work okay if you assumed that the activists were non-nutters. I would be very wary of ending up in the American Republican or British Labour situations where you have activists from the 'hard' wing of the party (right and left respectively) using selection primaries as a way of forcing more extreme candidates on a constituency. The moderate Republicans seem to spend half their time either appeasing the hard wing of the party or undertaking fundraising activities to sustain their own campaigns. Similarly, Labour MPs over here are now facing the constant threat of deselection if they don't conform to the 'socialist ideal'.
It's best avoided, in my view, through central nominations - it lets the MPs in question just get on with their job, and the electorate can decide for themselves next time around if they're worth another go or a change is needed. The whole electorate - not 40 activists who think reading Marx makes them a revolutionary.
I don't like parachuting of candidates, mind you, but that's a different question.
Lewis
24-07-2016, 02:40 PM
If you can't convince the local activists of your approach, or recruit enough 'moderates' to out-vote them, then maybe you shouldn't be in the trade union-funded Labour Party.
Well, the plan to "save Labour" seems to have been a waste of time so out-recruiting the nutters doesn't seem to work.
The nutter fringe will always be more motivated. They can't win though normal means, so they aim for small victories and shout about them. Like parish council by-elections.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/24/brexit-deal-free-movement-exemption-seven-years?CMP=share_btn_tw
How seething do you reckon Dave would be if this was signed off? Not that the Eurosceptic wing of the Tory party want anything other than a hard exit, but fucking lol that the European lads are even looking at it. Rules, lads. Rules.
Shindig
24-07-2016, 05:14 PM
"We can give Dave a shit deal. It's not like they're going to vote out, are they?"
Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has agreed to give Labour MP Sarah Champion her frontbench job back - after she asked to be re-instated.
Ms Champion - who was a shadow Home Office minister - resigned the position along with many other Labour frontbenchers following the vote of no confidence in Mr Corbyn.
However, she has now asked Mr Corbyn for her job back. Mr Corbyn's office said the Labour leader had now written to "welcome her back".
The move will be seen as a significant coup for Mr Corbyn and will fuel hopes that the revolt among Labour MPs may crumble. A source close to the Labour leader said: "You saw what happened when the first miners went back to work, so let’s see what happens.”
Jeremy's mate comparing his strategy favourably to the one employed by St Margaret. I'm not sure they've thought that one through.
A new ICM poll has the Tories on 43 and Labour on 27. That's a 100+ Tory majority. May needs to let Corbyn win the Labour leadership and go to the country in the autumn. Labour would be sub 200 seats, for fuck's sake.
Lewis
26-07-2016, 10:44 AM
Doesn't the fixed-term bullshit stop that? Unless they can collapse themselves, at which point Jezza is asked to form a government, and then they get an election when he obviously fails to do so. I can't remember how it works.
Collapsing themselves would be the easiest way. Or they can go to a vote in parliament where 2/3rds of MPs voting for dissolution is enough. Only anti-Corbyn Labour MPs would vote against, you'd think. Not sure if that would be enough to stop it or not.
Lewis
26-07-2016, 10:53 AM
I figured that the SNP would vote against it (or at least abstain) to prevent a stronger Conservative government.
Doesn't "a Tory government we didn't vote for" strengthen their argument for independence though?
Jimmy Floyd
26-07-2016, 11:27 AM
I want to know Andy Burnham's thoughts on all this.
Doesn't "a Tory government we didn't vote for" strengthen their argument for independence though?
There's no guarantee whatsoever they'd win a vote if they put it to the country.
It comes down to an emotional argument of identity, really, because you can effectively torpedo too many of their other points.
On Scotland, Comrade Jeremy moving Labour to the left to 'make them more competitive' is working out:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CoUYHqfXEAEZy_R.jpg
Lewis
27-07-2016, 12:37 PM
Owen 'Who?' Smith has proposed a top, top policy programme. It would obviously ruin us, but how do you 'focus on equality of outcome, not equality of opportunity', and why would you want to?
Lewis
27-07-2016, 12:44 PM
Why is every 'major' political speech I read these days made up of six line sentences? Look at it (http://labourlist.org/2016/07/the-kind-of-revolution-ill-deliver-owen-smiths-speech-on-industry/). It reads like it was written by a twelve year old.
Boydy
27-07-2016, 01:08 PM
You mean six word sentences?
Lewis
27-07-2016, 01:11 PM
I write like a twelve year old.
Jimmy Floyd
27-07-2016, 01:22 PM
Why is every 'major' political speech I read these days made up of six line sentences? Look at it (http://labourlist.org/2016/07/the-kind-of-revolution-ill-deliver-owen-smiths-speech-on-industry/). It reads like it was written by a twelve year old.
Because people don't have the attention span for longer sentences.
They want key messages.
They want them understandable.
They want them quick.
And they want the message distilled in five-second clips on the news.
Jimmy Floyd
27-07-2016, 01:27 PM
As for 'equality of outcome', doesn't that just mean communism?
Jimmy Floyd
27-07-2016, 03:58 PM
Read his speech, no one will vote for any of that. I'm starting to think the whole Labour party is packed with Tory moles.
It's presumably designed to undermine Wor Jez, but with typical short-termism he'd never row back from it in a general election campaign and would get 'smashed'.
It'd be an appalling policy programme to force on the country, but you expect that.
On a separate note, he does a rather unappealing line in wife beating analogies.
Yevrah
27-07-2016, 05:55 PM
Where are the Labour MP's who could oppose an actual leadership challenge? Their party is burning and they're nowhere to be seen.
Absolutely disgusting shirking behaviour.
Where are the Labour MP's who could oppose an actual leadership challenge? Their party is burning and they're nowhere to be seen.
Absolutely disgusting shirking behaviour.
I'd shirk as well. Either let somebody else do a bit of a cleaning job before being ousted in 2020 or, more likely, watch Corbyn tank badly and go for it then. Nobody wants to be Kinnock.
niko_cee
27-07-2016, 07:33 PM
At the moment most of them would probably give their left testicle (ovary) to be half a Kinnock. And not just because they fancy a family dynasty based on sponging off the EU (of course they'd want that too). Their race is run.
I saw earlier that Neil Kinnock's son concealed (he denies it, inevitably) that his daughter was going to a £29K a year private school when he was seeking selection for a safe seat.
Do as we say, not as we do. Welcome to Labour.
Lewis
27-07-2016, 09:27 PM
Jezza is in Hull on Saturday speaking for those People's Assembly dickheads. I might go.
I saw earlier that there's a report out that is incredibly critical of the IMF, suggesting it engaged in groupthink, had no clear decision making process and imposed ludicrous conditions on Greece solely to prevent contagion - effectively condemning the country to misery through misjudgements on their part on a colossal scale. It then sticks the boot into the rest of the Eurozone by suggesting that as they were going to be the beneficiaries of it, they should have put the money up.
Monetary Union, lads. We're better off out of that clusterfuck.
Lewis
30-07-2016, 02:42 PM
Senior Labour rebels are so convinced that Jeremy Corbyn will win the leadership contest that they are planning to elect their own leader and launch a legal challenge for the party's name. Leading moderates have told The Telegraph they are looking at plans to set up their own “alternative Labour” in a “semi-split” of the party if Mr Corbyn remains in post. The move would see them create their own shadow cabinet and even elect a leader within Parliament to rival Mr Corbyn’s front bench and take on the Tories.
lol at how pathetic (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/29/labour-rebels-plan-to-elect-own-leader-and-create-alternative-gr/) that is. Have some dignity.
They love a good half-measure, those lads.
Lewis
30-07-2016, 11:34 PM
David Cameron's leaked resignation honours list has got even the sycophants seething. And on the day that Theresa May was revealed to have a 'general prejudice' against Chinese investment. A new dawn has broken, has it not?
A gong for the wife's stylist is a new low, and this comes after the various handouts under the Lord Blair.
Lewis
30-07-2016, 11:48 PM
I like that Will Straw is getting most of the grief as well.
Getting a CBE for fucking up the remain campaign is a right effort, but I think my favourite political failure is Ryan Coetzee.
His last two jobs were director of strategy for the Lib Dem general election campaign and director of strategy for the remain campaign.
You'd think he'd be laughed out of the room from now on.
Lewis
31-07-2016, 12:44 AM
George Osborne always managed to surround himself with impressive-sounding people, but you wonder about half the idiots dishing advice out. Bearing in mind that the people behind the Remain campaign seemed to think that it was a life and death matter, could they seriously not have found somebody better than Will Straw?
I suspect it's like the way English football is run - players getting moves based on a series of 'recommendations' from their mates / contacts and the same managers moving about constantly despite their record being demonstrably shit. It'll be the same here - political 'operators' moving about campaigns, think tanks or policy shops on the basis of knowing someone or being 'recommended' by a party hierarchy.
The state of UKIP. Fucking hell, lads.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Co39BnPWIAErKK2.jpg
"What's up with Owen Jones?"
The PURGE is starting. :drool:
Lewis
02-08-2016, 07:23 PM
He's having a shit time of it at the minute. It was easy to whinge from the left when it looked like everybody was on board with Ed Miliband, and opposing the Tory-led ideological cuts Nick Clegg mate was an end in itself, but now that Labour (and the left in general) needs constructive solutions in the face of imminent irrelevance he has to act like he's above the fray.
Which is the problem, I suppose. Wor Jez has spent a lifetime protesting from the sidelines, but when required to present actual coherent policies to fix the things he's protesting about he hasn't a fucking notion.
760952990090035201
:drool:
Lewis
03-08-2016, 10:04 PM
They're idiots if they don't vote themselves into an election the minute Jezza wins the leadership contest.
Jimmy Floyd
04-08-2016, 07:17 AM
They like the certainty of power too much. Wankers.
They probably also want to let Jezza spend a few more years destroying the British left forever.
niko_cee
04-08-2016, 07:55 AM
Exactly. Why rush an election when he's in charge of the other side? All you are doing is giving the Labour Party a plausible reason to ditch him (crushing election defeat) and potentially start recovering sooner. If you wait out the full term, you let him do 4 more years worth of damage, and then suffer a crushing defeat, delaying the rebuild. Unless something intervenes like a new great recession and Jez leads his socialist revolution all the way to number 10. That's the gamble I guess.
Jimmy Floyd
04-08-2016, 08:26 AM
It would have to be a proper kidnapping-other-people's-children-and-eating-them kind of recession before Corbyn won an election, I think.
He's nominated Shami Chakrabarti for a peerage. Top, top trolling.
Lewis
04-08-2016, 07:36 PM
Jezza has donned this debate. Yes, the nobody glasses nobody is terrible, but he 1) has a clear wrong answer for everything; and 2) actually sounds like he cares. The empty suit sounds like somebody has asked me to act like Ed Miliband to win a fiver bet.
Lewis
04-08-2016, 07:38 PM
Standing ovation as well. First one to stop clapping gets shot.
Boydy
04-08-2016, 07:49 PM
Was it televised?
Lewis
04-08-2016, 07:58 PM
It was on YouTube. The feed went down for a bit, which I'm guessing was Jews.
Speaking of, they're now calling the anti-semitism report a 'whitewash for a peerage' scandal.
Outstanding work, lads.
Jimmy Floyd
04-08-2016, 08:39 PM
Corbyn is absolutely outstanding. Christ knows how he's got this far just on a personal level.
He's not a particularly threatening individual, so I imagine that has a lot to do with it.
niko_cee
05-08-2016, 12:31 PM
I missed all this Chakrabati business. I'm sure she said she wouldn't accept a peerage on Newsnight a fortnight ago.
Lol at the Jewish seethe.
Probably fair enough seething as well.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-looking-at-universal-basic-income-says-house-price-fall-could-help-tackle-housing-crisis_uk_57a61184e4b00be64336271a?ry69idwnvmtcmzp vi
Comrade Corbyn dredging up the UBI idea from the Green manifesto. How do you reckon he'd pay for it? "By expanding the economy and cutting down on tax avoidance", no doubt.
Wor Jez has solidified his hold over the party for the next thirty years. Labour have lost a ruling meaning they have to allow everybody who joined after January to vote in the election (and refund everybody who was already there but re-registered for £25 as a 'registered supporter') and they've managed to get another six leftists onto the NEC. In addition, he's apparently said he wouldn't automatically stand down if they were annihilated in 2020 - it would be down to 'the membership' to decide if his 'mandate' would continue.
Just split and be done with it.
niko_cee
08-08-2016, 10:03 PM
Watching them squabble on Newsnight is absolutely glorious. The non-nutter who was resigned to at least a decade in the wilderness,and the reaction to him was brilliant.
"But it's a movement!"
They're fucking insane. Let me dig up that post Henry made where he suggested that Twitter mentions suggested Wor Jez's message was getting through.
Ipsos MORI has done a Twitter sentiment analysis of tweets about Jeremy Corbyn’s speech. They looked at 41,000 tweets and classified almost 20,000 of them as positive or negative. Some 76% were positive. By comparison, when Ed Miliband gave his last conference speech as leader in 2014, only 24% were positive.
:)
The establishment and media can try to fuck him up however they like; but the public already don't trust those. His message may just get through.
Grim.
niko_cee
08-08-2016, 10:06 PM
I'm fairly sure there must be some kind of inverse relationship between the number of members a party has and it's 'electability' generally. Loads of members probably means you are the wrong side of mental for mainstream non-political bods to accept you.
I'd say you're right. The membership of any party invariably gives more of a shit than your average voter, but the problem with this particular membership is that it adheres entirely to one branch of the party; that is, your embittered metropolitan liberal voter. The rest of the core vote isn't represented at all, meaning they're appealing to a very small section of the potential electorate without recognising that's the case. The Tories have far fewer members, but they tend to be pragmatic as evidenced by backing Cameron over Davis in 2005.
Much of their hope is pinned on the great unwashed suddenly turning out in droves to vote for Wor Jez because his "message" is what they want to hear. It gives them hope, without requiring any hard self-analysis about why their existing vote share is so shit.
Their problem with that is a) these people don't care enough to vote and b) even if they did, they'd probably be the sort of people who'd want 'brown people' deported and criminals taken outside the court house and hanged in front of a baying mob. They're not going to be interested in Jez's message for a 'social Europe' and his contempt for 'rising levels of inequality'.
The fundamental messages of Corbyn and his mates are only going to appeal to your London types. Those in the north who vote for them are going to do so out of brand loyalty and nothing more. They're absolutely fucked.
I saw Corbyn wrote an article for the Telegraph, what's going on there?
From his point it's good but I was surprised they agreed to it.
I think you may have your dynamics confused.
Jimmy Floyd
12-08-2016, 02:56 PM
This Nigel Farage moustache is a potential game changer.
Boydy
12-08-2016, 04:31 PM
You can't post that and then not provide a picture.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/08/12/CpqiWr5WcAIlLJa-large_trans++X7pHcCCmtgwidDdHSvx2cOLG2Y5kmclw2KkpY A1qlXg.jpg
:D
I really don't get why people grow moustaches. My dad has one. Has had for years. They're just such odd things though.
Lewis
12-08-2016, 05:28 PM
lol if (when) Jezza wins the leadership contest even without these 2016 members.
The Treasury have confirmed they'll match all EU funding, including agricultural funding to 2020 when a new system will come into place.
There's another scare story torpedoed.
Boydy
13-08-2016, 11:08 AM
How are they paying for that?
I suspect it'll ostensibly be from the £10bn we pack off to Brussels every year, mindful of the fact that nobody can quantify the impact - positive or otherwise - of leaving on the economy as a whole.
If that fails, they can just raise taxes on the poor.
Boydy
13-08-2016, 11:12 AM
That wasn't a snarky question, by the way. I was genuinely wondering.
Is the money we send to Brussels enough to cover that?
It is indeed.
We paid £20bn gross to Brussels a year. Of that, we got some back in a rebate and some from EU funding through CAP (Common Agricultural Policy), infrastructure investments and academic funding. So all things told, we were paying £10bn net into Brussels which was diverted elsewhere in the union e.g. administrative costs in Brussels or sent to Poland, Slovakia etc.
So it's certainly enough to cover it, and assuming the economy stayed exactly the same we'd have an extra £10bn to spend even if we covered all EU funding. The question becomes whether adverse changes in the economy from leaving mean your £10bn net - which is 'extra' after you've already met all EU funding - gets eaten before it can be spent on 'our NHS'.
Lewis
13-08-2016, 12:29 PM
They should phase agricultural subsidies out eventually. Then we might have some more land to build on.
It's sensible to have some, because food is the sort of thing you need to have some self-sufficiency in and if farmers got recompensed solely 'in the market' they'd (well, a decent number) be up shit creek.
Still, leaving the EU will mean fucking off their shit protectionist policies so we'll have cheaper food and we'll stop shafting African farmers. It's win-win.
Lofty
13-08-2016, 11:51 PM
My local branch of the Labour Party had their vote for Leadership candidate which as you can imagine was hotly debated in a town reliant on Trident. In the end Jez took it by a landslide and one of the speakers who made an impassioned plea on behalf of Owen shouted 'FUCK YOU ALL' before leaving with a dramatic door slam.
Lewis
14-08-2016, 12:06 AM
Alright, Beano. Why don't you post much now?
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/08/14/11/372EDC6000000578-3739913-Nigel_Farage_pictured_described_George_Osborne_as_ a_departing_we-a-3_1471171983239.jpg
#swag
Jimmy Floyd
15-08-2016, 10:21 AM
It's one of the most remarkable developments in postwar British politics.
Raoul Duke
15-08-2016, 06:44 PM
Now all he needs to do is trim down the sides a bit...
Spikey M
15-08-2016, 07:12 PM
He should go for proper Victorian Mutton Chops.
It's one of the most remarkable developments in postwar British politics.
He's just hoping there's a part for him if Life On Mars ever gets a reboot.
Even if you think he's a cunt, he should be in the Lords.
Boydy
16-08-2016, 04:35 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/16/jeremy-corbyn-floor-three-hour-train-journey-london-newcastle?CMP=fb_gu
:cool:
I honestly thought that was satire when it first popped up in my Twitter feed.
phonics
16-08-2016, 05:03 PM
Choudrays been jailed for hate crimes. So much for THE TERRIBLE UNDEMOCRATIC EU HUMAN RIGHTS ACT.
I honestly thought that was satire when it first popped up in my Twitter feed.
His supporters will lap it up, no doubt.
Choudrays been jailed for hate crimes. So much for THE TERRIBLE UNDEMOCRATIC EU HUMAN RIGHTS ACT.
What are you even on about? That would be used to stop him being deported if he wasn't British - which he is, so it's irrelevant.
Lewis
16-08-2016, 06:01 PM
I'm a bit worried about this 'secret plan' the Conservatives have to privatise the National Health Service, and which only Owen Smith knows about, but I wonder whether he's hampering our efforts to fight them by not giving us any details.
When Labour start citing the NHS, you know they're in bother. They've been complaining that the Tories are going to privatise the NHS for decades, and they've stubbornly refused to do so.
Still, a "secret plan" invites all sort of conspiracy wankers to opine. Like the fifth of Labour voters who think Wor Jez is being actively sabotaged by MI5. :harold:
phonics
17-08-2016, 11:11 AM
Owen Smiths said that we should bring ISIS to the table.
edit: And yet the main story seems to be 'Corbyn doesn't know who Ant & Dec are'
Nice.
Yevrah
17-08-2016, 01:24 PM
The way that privatisation (i.e. getting private companies to run bits of it) is banded about being the same as not free at the point of service is so disingenuous.
Of course it is. Not that it's a solution to all evils, but it clearly has a place in providing the best healthcare possible under the constraints of a system that is free at the point of use.
Then again, I'm right wing and still consider the NHS to be sacrosanct so you fiddle with it at your peril.
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