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Thread: Weekend Football: 2-5 February

  1. #201
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    I don't really see how it's a penalty unless he catches Lamela on the calf with his boot. Otherwise, van Dijk pulls out and it's Lamela backing into him that causes contact.
    He does, and it's a penalty.

    I dislike Liverpool and Spurs equally but as ever with Liverpool games, objectivity goes totally out of the window when their hivemind activates upon a perceived inJUSTICE. That Mané red card against City being an all time classic.

  2. #202
    Senior Member niko_cee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny View Post
    Other angle makes it look horrible but that shows its stonewall and is top (top top) work from the Lino on both shouts.
    So is Kane really not offside for that first one?

  3. #203
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niko_cee View Post
    So is Kane really not offside for that first one?
    Is it not a new phase of play when the defender touches it? Thus rendering the 'initial' phase irrelevant because, by virtue of the ball never arriving where he could play it, Kane wasn't offside.

    As in this example:

    Toggle Spoiler

  4. #204
    Senior Member Spoonsky's Avatar
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    The defender only kicked that ball because of a pass to a player that was offside though. Thus he was influencing the play even before the deflection.

    I've reffed ten year olds in Utah so I would know.

  5. #205
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    He fulfils both the criteria demanded above though (an image I've grabbed directly from the FIFA Laws). By the same logic, if the Liverpool player who got a touch had instead controlled it and then passed it through to Kane himself, you'd still want Kane to be offside but I'm afraid he was on.

    This is why ref and linesman were having a debate as to whether the player touched it, as if there was no Liverpool touch (and the linesman couldn't see from where he was) it would have been offside. He flagged up the possible offside after the referee's decision and then the referee confirmed there had been a touch so the penalty could stand - great officiating all round.

  6. #206
    ram it up your shitpipe Giggles's Avatar
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    You'd think Liverpool supporters would be more used to shit defending by now and not be blaming officials for it all.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by niko_cee View Post
    So is Kane really not offside for that first one?
    https://streamable.com/pjpmp

    Dermot says no as Lovrens attempt to play the ball was a deliberate

  8. #208
    Senior Member Spoonsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Floyd View Post
    He fulfils both the criteria demanded above though (an image I've grabbed directly from the FIFA Laws). By the same logic, if the Liverpool player who got a touch had instead controlled it and then passed it through to Kane himself, you'd still want Kane to be offside but I'm afraid he was on.

    This is why ref and linesman were having a debate as to whether the player touched it, as if there was no Liverpool touch (and the linesman couldn't see from where he was) it would have been offside. He flagged up the possible offside after the referee's decision and then the referee confirmed there had been a touch so the penalty could stand - great officiating all round.
    I think you're right. I didn't know that.

  9. #209
    Senior Member Spoonsky's Avatar
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    Kane's still dived though.

  10. #210
    Senior Member niko_cee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Floyd View Post
    He fulfils both the criteria demanded above though (an image I've grabbed directly from the FIFA Laws). By the same logic, if the Liverpool player who got a touch had instead controlled it and then passed it through to Kane himself, you'd still want Kane to be offside but I'm afraid he was on.

    This is why ref and linesman were having a debate as to whether the player touched it, as if there was no Liverpool touch (and the linesman couldn't see from where he was) it would have been offside. He flagged up the possible offside after the referee's decision and then the referee confirmed there had been a touch so the penalty could stand - great officiating all round.
    See, this is what I suspected, but as Spoonsky said, that makes no sense (even if it is the law). By forcing a player into having to do something, whilst being offside you have to be influencing the game. The situation you then describe happens quite often (as I described earlier) and it is (should be) offside - otherwise is any deflected pass/shot not offside? Shot from the edge of the box, takes a deflection, saved, attacker standing in an offside position when the shot is hit puts it in - is that a goal?

    Kudos for the great game John Moss comment earlier by the way. He quite often has a 'great game' whenever I see him.

    Ah, bringing intention into things, a sure fire way to provide resolution.

    Well, you had ample opportunity to clear the ball . . .

  11. #211
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niko_cee View Post
    See, this is what I suspected, but as Spoonsky said, that makes no sense (even if it is the law). By forcing a player into having to do something, whilst being offside you have to be influencing the game. The situation you then describe happens quite often (as I described earlier) and it is (should be) offside - otherwise is any deflected pass/shot not offside? Shot from the edge of the box, takes a deflection, saved, attacker standing in an offside position when the shot is hit puts it in - is that a goal?
    The law doesn't say 'influencing the game' though, it says 'involved in active play'.

    Your next bit comes under 'Gaining an Advantage', see pages 22-24 here: https://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afd...e_en_47383.pdf. There is a logic to it.

  12. #212
    Custom User Title phonics's Avatar
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    I hadn't seen the penalty that was causing so much consternation before the link above. Why's anyone arguing about it? Kane kicks it out of play and takes a massive dive.

  13. #213
    ram it up your shitpipe Giggles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    I hadn't seen the penalty that was causing so much consternation before the link above. Why's anyone arguing about it? Kane kicks it out of play and takes a massive dive.
    Presumably because there was contact, and contact = penalty these days. He could have done a triple somersault and it's still one once he was clipped. It was one of the worst penalties I've seen in a long time though.

  14. #214
    Senior Member niko_cee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Floyd View Post
    The law doesn't say 'influencing the game' though, it says 'involved in active play'.

    Your next bit comes under 'Gaining an Advantage', see pages 22-24 here: https://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afd...e_en_47383.pdf. There is a logic to it.
    Not really.

    If a defender tried to block a shot (an intentional act) and it deflects off him, goes on target, is saved and then is put in by someone standing in an offside position when the shot is taken, Dermot's intentional play of the ball rule (which sounds like fucking rugby league) would suggest to me that the goal should stand. Which is clearly a nonsense. All you do then is get into debates about whether someone deliberately tried to kick/touch the ball (and in 90% of instances you'd have to conclude they probably did in some capacity). It's obviously just an exceptional (and marginally interesting) situation, but I'm not sure I really subscribe to the defender touching the ball and thus rendering the whole rule void theory, even if that's where we are with the offside law.

  15. #215
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niko_cee View Post
    Not really.

    If a defender tried to block a shot (an intentional act) and it deflects off him, goes on target, is saved and then is put in by someone standing in an offside position when the shot is taken, Dermot's intentional play of the ball rule (which sounds like fucking rugby league) would suggest to me that the goal should stand. Which is clearly a nonsense. All you do then is get into debates about whether someone deliberately tried to kick/touch the ball (and in 90% of instances you'd have to conclude they probably did in some capacity). It's obviously just an exceptional (and marginally interesting) situation, but I'm not sure I really subscribe to the defender touching the ball and thus rendering the whole rule void theory, even if that's where we are with the offside law.
    There is a slight grey area in that the rules are written with competent play in mind, rather than the ball slicing off retards like Lovren and the end result being pretty much what was originally intended.

    The key thing though is less what Lovren was doing and more what Kane was doing, which is making a run some way away from the action but obviously not in a position deemed to be 'gaining an advantage' as per the definitions they've given there.

  16. #216
    Administrator SvN's Avatar
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    My interpretation is that a pass is treated differently to an attempt at a block or a deflection.

  17. #217
    Senior Member niko_cee's Avatar
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    Actually, thanks Jim, frame 25, it's offside.

    Do we need a definition section on 'rebound'? As if there's going to be some exception for intentional acts, that's going to fuck the bit up about 'keepers saving shots and having the rebounds put in.

  18. #218
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niko_cee View Post
    Actually, thanks Jim, frame 25, it's offside.

    Do we need a definition section on 'rebound'? As if there's going to be some exception for intentional acts, that's going to fuck the bit up about 'keepers saving shots and having the rebounds put in.
    It's not a rebound though, it's Lovren playing the ball, which starts a new phase of play.

    I don't know if there is a definition of 'rebound' somewhere else in the laws.

  19. #219
    Senior Member niko_cee's Avatar
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    What is a save then if not a play of the ball? What is a rebound? That frame suggests it doesn't even have to bounce back off something.

    I don't see how you square the circle where 1 is a new phase of play, and the other isn't.

  20. #220
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niko_cee View Post
    What is a save then if not a play of the ball? What is a rebound? That frame suggests it doesn't even have to bounce back off something.

    I don't see how you square the circle where 1 is a new phase of play, and the other isn't.
    Defi nitions
    In the context of Law 11 – Offside, the following defi nitions apply:
    • “nearer to his opponents’ goal line” means that any part of a player’s head,
    body or feet is nearer to his opponents’ goal line than both the ball and the
    second-last opponent. The arms are not included in this defi nition
    • “interfering with play” means playing or touching the ball passed or
    touched by a team-mate
    • “interfering with an opponent” means preventing an opponent from
    playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s
    line of vision or challenging an opponent for the ball
    • “gaining an advantage by being in that position” means playing a ball
    i. that rebounds or is defl ected to him off the goalpost, crossbar or an
    opponent having been in an offside position
    ii. that rebounds, is defl ected or is played to him from a deliberate save
    by an opponent having been in an offside position
    A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent, who
    deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save), is not considered
    to have gained an advantage.
    Pick your way through that, Clifford Chance. Bolded bit I think applies.

  21. #221
    Senior Member niko_cee's Avatar
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    I see they catch is at the end, but it doesn't work with that frame 25 if the 'deflection' stems from a deliberate attempt to play the ball, so do they have a section where blocks are defined? It all seems a bit rabbit holey and, as you say, trust Lovren's incompetence to be so game breaking. If only he was little more useless and just missed the ball.

  22. #222
    More successful than most Magic's Avatar
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    Manager sacked lol. It was never going to work out. Cyprus? Fuck me.

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Floyd View Post
    I've said it twice, I'll be saying it every day from now on though. You gain wisdom with age.
    Being 5 years(ish) your senior, I'll take that.

  24. #224
    Isn't he banned? Baz's Avatar
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    Nobody’s contending the fact that Lovren touching it started a “new phase of play,” but he wouldn’t have touched it if Kane wasn’t there. And Kane was offside. Should have been a Liverpool free kick.
    I'm a twit

  25. #225
    ram it up your shitpipe Giggles's Avatar
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    It shouldn't. But anyway, let it go, he missed. Last thing we need is you shower on yet another JUSTICE capitan

  26. #226
    More successful than most Magic's Avatar
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    Jaap Stam, Steve McLaren and Gordon Strachan.

    Inspiring.

  27. #227
    ram it up your shitpipe Giggles's Avatar
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    Roy Keane. One will do at this stage.

  28. #228
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baz View Post
    Nobody’s contending the fact that Lovren touching it started a “new phase of play,” but he wouldn’t have touched it if Kane wasn’t there. And Kane was offside. Should have been a Liverpool free kick.
    That's not the rules though, that's just some words you've made up. Scouse Truth.

  29. #229
    Senior Member niko_cee's Avatar
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    I understand the rules point but I still struggle to accept it was intended to be used/applied as the facts presented themselves - rather it intends to cover errant back passes and the like made after a potentiality offside situation has arisen (so in the case in point, had Lovren deliberately played the ball back into Kane's path, as in that's what he intended to do, not just what he errantly did, he wouldn't have been offside). The more layers of detail/complication you add to anything, the more 'interesting' (and potentially unintended) consequences you get.

  30. #230
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Lovren's was an errant back pass. Just really, really errant as opposed to slightly. Like I said, it's the same deal as if he'd taken a touch and then slipped Kane through, Dier stylee.

    Does the referee ever rule on who was trying to pass to who? Backpass rule? Maybe. The backpass rule is a contrived load of shite though, so I'm happy for offside to overrule it.

  31. #231
    Senior Member niko_cee's Avatar
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    But once you say that, then a deliberate act to block the ball catches it as well, otherwise it's just more layers of detail to go wrong - only blocks not made with the foot?

    The problem (and VAR will find this) is that it is almost impossible to properly 'objectify' something which should probably really be regarded as subjective (even though I know it's not how they've worded it, but 'was Kane interefering with play' is an inherently subjective question). Even the bit where they try to redeem saves with the term 'deliberate save' - what if the 'keeper makes an unintentional save (it's hard to imagine but say he is trying to pull his arm away as he thinks it is going out/wide but it hits him)? More detail doesn't lead to greater clarity.

  32. #232
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Are deliberate blocks counted under rebounds/deflections or are they playing the ball? Perhaps we'll never know.

    My old man is a stickler for 'if you're offside, you're offside' which does clarify things a bit.

  33. #233
    Custom User Title phonics's Avatar
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    It's almost like all this pissing around with the offside and handball has made everything needlessly complicated.

  34. #234
    More successful than most Magic's Avatar
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    Dele Alli sex tape.

  35. #235
    Senior Member ScousePig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Floyd View Post
    Lovren's was an errant back pass. Just really, really errant as opposed to slightly. Like I said, it's the same deal as if he'd taken a touch and then slipped Kane through, Dier stylee.

    Does the referee ever rule on who was trying to pass to who? Backpass rule? Maybe. The backpass rule is a contrived load of shite though, so I'm happy for offside to overrule it.
    The backpass rule is great.

  36. #236
    Senior Member randomlegend's Avatar
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    21 year old male in 'getting his dick sucked' scandal!

    Who fucking cares, honestly.

  37. #237
    Administrator Kikó's Avatar
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    Pm bam for the video.

  38. #238
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomlegend View Post
    21 year old male in 'getting his dick sucked' scandal!

    Who fucking cares, honestly.
    I like the conspiracy theories about Liverpool fans leaking it as revenge for yesterday's result. Presumably Lamela/Kane/Jon Moss sex tapes are not held by the ynwa fraternity.

  39. #239
    Custom User Title phonics's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Floyd View Post
    I like the conspiracy theories about Liverpool fans leaking it as revenge for yesterday's result. Presumably Lamela/Kane/Jon Moss sex tapes are not held by the ynwa fraternity.
    I found an even better conspiracy theory. He's a Jew and therefore loves Spurs.



    That would be the Jon Moss, the drummer from Culture Club but never mind.

  40. #240
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Never change.

  41. #241
    Custom User Title phonics's Avatar
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    It just gets better.


  42. #242
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    Who was it on the Twitter who said that even the maddest political abuse/shite tends to come from people with Liverpool references (the city, but the club in particular) in their profiles? I think it was Dan Hodges, but James Delingpole might have highlighted it as well.

  43. #243
    Administrator Kikó's Avatar
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    It seems legit to be honest. The fergie Mafia were famously Zionist.

  44. #244
    Senior Member Disco's Avatar
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    The shadowy 'Class of 90-Jew' dictate world events to this very day.

  45. #245
    Custom User Title phonics's Avatar
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    Bennavento are looking at signing Samir Nasri and Alex Song on free transfers, having got Sagna through the door last week.

    Recreating the '08 team I wonder what Eduardo's up to these days.

  46. #246
    Senior Member Mazuuurk's Avatar
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    Diaby is available as well - as far as I know.

    Maybe they could use him as a glass wall in the VIP section.

  47. #247
    Senior Member Mazuuurk's Avatar
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    Also, I just Googled around and found Denilson is only 29.

    That just doesn't seem right.

  48. #248
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Isn't Eboué homeless or something? Man needs a break.

    Probably because of everyone saying his name wrong all these years.

  49. #249
    Bookie Sir Andy Mahowry's Avatar
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    Apparently he tried to join a Northern Cypriot team but it fell through as he failed his medical and is now a coach of Galatasary's U14 team as Terim felt sorry for him.

  50. #250
    Respect the point. Byron's Avatar
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    I was going for E-boooooo-ue

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