It's so funny how you're being about this despite all the shady shit that has come out that the government have said/done.
You made up your mind that you were anti the doctors from the start and have just been revelling in that any way you can.
It's so funny how you're being about this despite all the shady shit that has come out that the government have said/done.
You made up your mind that you were anti the doctors from the start and have just been revelling in that any way you can.
Who do they think they are?
He may not be a Dr (yet?), but he's got the seething down.Originally Posted by randomlegend
I was hardly 'anti-doctor'. I simply took issue with the misrepresentation of the reasons behind the dispute on your side. If the BMA had openly said "we agree that there should be a seven day NHS (which is a perfectly fair aim for government) but our issue is the financial package on offer to junior doctors" then you'd say fair enough. Instead they tried to couch the argument as "patient safety" because they knew espousing their genuine views would lead to a swift erosion of public support.
I'm not glorying in anything, but this 'leak', such as it is, demonstrates quite clearly that the arguments made against the BMA's approach were wholly justified.
Do you still want to maintain your 'altruism' line in terms of supporting the strikes? Because these leaks demonstrate quite categorically that they were quite prepared to continue striking over a prolonged period and that pay represented the only genuine red line. It torpedoes your argument. Conveniently, it also simply supports what Lee has previously outlined.
My arguments were always much more around the motivations of the doctors than the BMA. That's much more important to me tbh.
Of which "99%" apparently made clear that pay was the only real red line. Not patient safety. Pay.
Where's that from?
Dr Malawana asked his executive colleagues whether any deal including Saturdays at plain time might be accepted.
Several members replied to say that it would not.
Former JDC chair and executive member Kitty Mohan said: “It is the only real red line. It’s the thing 99 per cent of juniors told us they were upset about in August.” Arrash Arya Yassaee told Dr Malawana: “Bluntly, no.”
From Lewis' link.
I'm sure 99% were upset about pay. That it was the red line for 99% of them is not at all what that says.
That's not an unreasonable point. However, it's logical that if 99% are upset then it's also fair to assume that a clear majority thereof must consider it the 'only real red line'.
Have a day off.
Quite right. There'd be no need for this sort of dispute in the socialist utopia you lads would organise for the rest of us.
Why? Even if it was a deal breaker for all of them (which it quite clearly wasn't) that doesn't mean the patient safety issues couldn't be a deal breaker for them all as well.
The simple fact they were annoyed about it gives literally no indication of how big an issue it was to them or whether it was their only issue.
The thread hadn't had a single post for a week before yesterday
I meant GS and I meant from being a tory bore. Not from this thread specifically.The thread hadn't had a single post for a week before yesterday
If it's the "only real red line", it clearly represents the issue of most fundamental importance i.e. all other issues can be compromised, but pay is the only one that won't. I'm happy to concede your point that it doesn't mean 99% consider it a real red line, but a clear majority must have. Otherwise they'd have been willing to discuss the point.
Are you still a socialist? Genuine question.
That's just a statement from the BMA, it doesn't necessarily represent the views of the thousands of junior doctors.
My b.
You should read Lewis' link, at least. The idea of stringing the disputes out for maximise impact is particularly unpleasant given the impact on patients.
I feel the need to repeat the point: I give zero shits about professionals wanting a better deal for themselves. Just don't openly lie about your reasons for acting as you are.
I read it the other day. As i understand it's messages between top members of the BMA. Just because they are saying certain things doesn't make them representative of the views of the average junior doctor (who wouldn't have had any idea about the content of private BMA communications).
It's like saying the average conservative voter must support all the dodgy positions Hunt has taken and things he's said (before they could even have known about them...)
You keep repeating this shit about them wanting a BETTER deal. They didn't. They just didn't want a big pay cut.
GS reminds me of Kevin the goat cunt.
We deserve a seven day service.
Unless the Tories want it, at which point it should be opposed just because.
Doctors don't oppose it; they oppose it being done without the investment it clearly needs to make it happen successfully.
Think the Jr. Doctors are sensing a bit of weakness in the government. They've just rejected the contract.
That's been expected for a little while now but FOR FUCK'S SAKE.
I don't even know any more, but
Literally nobody cares about the junior doctors right now. We don't have a government or an opposition.
It'll get forced on them and nobody will care.
You care.
Yes, the 60 seconds it took to read three posts and draft the above is certainly evidence of that.
Suffice to say it's not a major concern for anybody right now. I believe I'm right in saying that people are rolling onto the new contract from next month anyway, so well done.
Cus that's your only post in here.
The political landscape has changed.
I suppose the failing NHS is low down on the list of priorities when you have no teachers and oncoming financial Armageddon and no plan to solve it.
Didn't know I could have voted.
I thought the Junior Doctors striking was a disgrace and peoples deaths were on their head. Turns out, nah, not really.
It really is absolutely dire working in the NHS at the moment. No it's not the same in the private sector (GS) because you do an extra hour at the office some nights.
Only 49% of junior doctors are going on to do speciality training (in this country) after their foundation years. That's an absolute disaster. Yeah yeah it's because they are all greedy and want to go get rich somewhere else. It's not, it's because the working conditions are absolutely crushingly dreadful. It's taken as completely normal that people will be so completely overwhelmed and stressed that they'll just be bursting into tears before and after their shifts. I know loads of people from my previous years who've gone off to Australia already because it's so shit working here. They never planned to and didn't particularly want to leave the UK but they want to be doctors and feel unable to sustain it here.
So many people are just going to get utterly burnt out and damaged by the way things are. I think I believe the whole 'the Tories are trying to bring it down so they can privatise it' line of reasoning at this point, to be honest.
It's as bad in teaching as well. My girlfriend is ridiculously overworked. My auntie and uncle are both teachers and my uncle has just left the profession after about 40 years because the conditions are the worst he's ever known them, and my auntie is considering doing the same. I doubt my girlfriend will stay in teaching long-term either, despite loving the actual teaching.
I really don't think people get it. I'm sure I'll just get GS/Lewis/Jimmy lolling at the moaning teachers/doctors/nurses but it just genuinely is that bad at the moment.
Maybe it just isn't possible to run a 'fully funded system of nationalised healthcare' these days. Realistically, how many more tens of billions of pounds need to be thrown at it?
I know it's a sacred cow, and as someone who lives in a part privatised system I can fully appreciate the benefits of the NHS, but are systems like they have in other parts of the world (no, not fucking Murica) really the capitalist anathema they would be cast as should anyone dare speak about some form of major reform? Is it just too fucking big to effectively managed?
Is a pay rise for everyone the answer?
"Everyone's being overworked to the point of burnout."
"Give them a payrise."
He doesn't even seem to be suggesting that's the answer.
Australia spends pretty much the same as us on its healthcare, and they don't even have a state monopoly keeping costs down and fairness up, so if the conditions are 'absolutely crushingly dreadful' here it must be like a slaughterhouse there. Good weather though, so you can see why people would move.
It's not just the NHS though, all public services are being cut to ribbons. Police is the one I know more about but it's basically the same post to be written there as RL's but changing some of the nouns. There isn't any money to keep them up to the growing demand, there hasn't been for at least 40 years, and even putting someone like Corbyn into central government I doubt would make any difference other than a bit of polyfilla here and there.
You'd need to not just make symbolic additions to the budget to make people feel better, but pretty much double the budget of all these things to have any sort of comfortable system where everyone gets proper pay and conditions and the service is decent. I don't know where that money is coming from.
There was a poll the other day that suggested that 77% of people view the NHS as "essential to modern life" in the UK, and that it must be protected at all costs. It's almost impossible to have a serious conversation about it with that backdrop.
Ultimately it's a question of cost. Throwing more money at it isn't going to address the fundamental, which is that it's doing too much and isn't a feasible public service any more under its current funding model. This graph illustrates the point:
There's no chance you're moving the dial on the public view sufficiently to actually tackle the issue. The Tories don't have any moral authority on it - it would have to come from, and be driven through, by Labour. That won't happen, so it's fucked.
How would privatizing make it any cheaper, beyond restricting the coverage of some people? Enough of them to make up the need for profits.
No one wants to privatise it, I don't know how the word privatise even enters conversations about it.
I was basing myself on what niko said.
So what are some suggested alternative funding models?
The ones that every other developed nation uses to better effect.
They certainly want to (continue to) outsource services within the NHS to Private Sector companies. Old Dicky Branson seems keen to take it all on.
I hope the next hurricane fucking gets him.
Is the main difference whether employers chip in or not?
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