News of the day

[Jimmy Floyd]

I know this isn't - or can't be - entirely serious, but those aren't equivalent positives and negatives.

The problem with the immigration debate is that 'immigrants' is a largely pointless term. Immigrants from wealthy countries are more likely than not to make a positive financial and social contribution, and, as every country that bothers to collect the data has found, immigrants from crap countries are not. If you could click your fingers and every Somalian in the United Kingdom vanished the only noticeable trends would be thousands of vacant council houses and less crime being committed. The same would not be the case for Chinese or American immigrants. This should be the main point informing the immigration debate, but the people in charge of it are of the same mindset as you, that if you want the wage suppression you have to accept the wage suppression, and you couldn't do anything about it anyway because if we stop the wage suppression how will we suppress the wages?

There must be shit tons of things that go into the situation being as it is. Diplomatic deals with Hindu-nationalist India. Lack of allocated resources to recruit officers to enforce against illegals. Local politicans, mosques and 'community figures' sponsoring people through. Costa Coffee wanting cheap staff. The nation's money-laundering shopfront network wanting staff they can pay nothing under the table. Chinese espionage. Benefits being generous. Refugees fleeing actual war. Political capital from the Guardian calling you racist every day for years.

No one is honest about almost any of the above. It's all run through simplistic nonsense arguments such as 'vibrant communities' or alternatively 'enough is enough'. Can the government do what you have done and say Somalians are a bunch of worthless wasters and no one with a Somalian origin will henceforth be allowed into the country? There are a thousand things preventing that from happening. Do it anyway? Fine, but then you'll get called an ethnic cleanser and lose all your political capital to be able to do anything else.

Same process applies for almost any issue you can name. Let's build three million houses - great idea - but not only are the classic Nimby boomers on your case, but developers are on your case, George Monbiot is on your case, dog walkers are, estate agents, grannies, gays, smokers, non-smokers, everyone objects for their own small reason and these add up. Despite this complex web of paralysing bullshit, 83% of people, which is most people, live at historical levels of prosperous comfort. That is why all your political capital is tied up in the Waitrose car park shaking their heads about things, and that is also why nobody is radical and takes risks - because for the majority, life has been getting better for a very long time now, regardless of whether they feel it has or not, and no democratic government wants to be the government that gambled away that state of affairs. If you feel that democracy has run its course and dictatorship is now required, then that could be a legitimate argument, but I don't see a single person making it.

The only two properly radical British PMs in the last hundred years have been Thatcher and Attlee (arguably Blair, but not really) and they both inherited a pile of rubble. No rubble is forthcoming now unless there's some kind of external trauma (war or major economic collapse) on the horizon.

And that's not to mention the financial markets, who accounted for the Truss weirdos trying something different and would also have accounted for Corbyn had he ever got in.

[Lewis]

Again, all of these various factors aren't equally valid or in any way inevitable, so you are just creating nonsensical reasoning for putting everything on the too hard pile and not taking any particular position on anything for fuck knows why. The system is shit and leads to shit outcomes. Yes, but that is the system. Oh right.

[Yevrah]

Lewie, if you were in power tomorrow what'd be some of the first things you'd do (assuming they could be introduced immediately)?

[Jimmy Floyd]

Again, all of these various factors aren't equally valid or in any way inevitable, so you are just creating nonsensical reasoning for putting everything on the too hard pile and not taking any particular position on anything for fuck knows why. The system is shit and leads to shit outcomes. Yes, but that is the system. Oh right.

The system is global capitalism.

[Lewis]

The system is global capitalism.

It can't be because everything you've listed there, beyond a readiness to furnish businesses with a constant supply of cheap labour (and even that appears to be done as much with 'community leaders' and the Guardian in mind as large corporations), ultimately works to stunt economic growth in this country. It's paralysis by design.

[Lewis]

Lewie, if you were in power tomorrow what'd be some of the first things you'd do (assuming they could be introduced immediately)?

I would unban Harold, and then set about inducing millions of foreigners to leave. You could accomplish this with relatively straight-forward changes to employment and benefit rules, such as only issuing benefits to people with British citizenship (whilst also making that much harder to obtain, and back-dating it ten years) whilst massively increasing salary thresholds for all but the most critical shortage occupations, and ruthlessly booting out any and all illegals and trouble-causers. The downstream effects of this are a tidy-if-partial solution to the housing crisis, a shot in the arm for economic productivity, decreasing the pressure on our creaking shit infrastructure, less crime, restoring faith in the benefits system, and - the biggest prize of all - stabilising the national demographic profile and (hopefully) preventing ethnic conflict down the line.

After dinner you could get to work on a nuclear roll-out and locking up repeat offenders forever.

[Boydy]

Couldn't you have expressed that all in 14 words?

[Jimmy Floyd]

I would unban Harold, and then set about inducing millions of foreigners to leave. You could accomplish this with relatively straight-forward changes to employment and benefit rules, such as only issuing benefits to people with British citizenship (whilst also making that much harder to obtain, and back-dating it ten years) whilst massively increasing salary thresholds for all but the most critical shortage occupations, and ruthlessly booting out any and all illegals and trouble-causers. The downstream effects of this are a tidy-if-partial solution to the housing crisis, a shot in the arm for economic productivity, decreasing the pressure on our creaking shit infrastructure, less crime, restoring faith in the benefits system, and - the biggest prize of all - stabilising the national demographic profile and (hopefully) preventing ethnic conflict down the line.

After dinner you could get to work on a nuclear roll-out and locking up repeat offenders forever.

Do you think you could win a democratic mandate to do all that?

[Lewis]

I think somebody could.

[Lewis]

Couldn't you have expressed that all in 14 words?

'You know where Boydy comes from? We don't want to end up like that.'

[Lofty]

Why lock up repeat offenders forever when you can execute them, cheaper surely.

[Raoul Duke]

Send them to Rwanda

[Spikey M]

We don't address immigration because we need it, or in the near future the next crisis will be crippling levels of tax and pensioners that outweigh the working population.

So, either you cunts need to start having children, or our future workforce will need to be imported.

[Jimmy Floyd]

It should also be said that these trends are pan-European or in fact pan-Western. Everywhere has a labour shortage, everywhere has low childbirth, and so on.

[Spikey M]

Indeed, and as a silver lining, we are much less fucked - as always - than the Italians, atleast. And Korea is possibly more fucked than their northern cousins in the near future.

From what I can see, it's a perfect storm of Women chasing careers because they have been sold the dream of being boss-bitches, men that can't be bothered to play that game and people living longer finally coming back to bite us on the arse, as they hoard all the wealth, take up all the resources and provide no value to society, whatsoever.

The question is; what happens next? My bet is population-flight. As fast as immigrants want to come right now, eventually they, and our native children, will start looking for greener pastures. I'll meet you lads on "the line".

[Jimmy Floyd]

I've always thought a fun policy would be to raise retirement age to about 80. There are loads of jobs that people in their 70s can do, especially now there is WFH, why do we need to be paying them a pension? That sort of thing dates from the time when everyone died at 60 with no teeth.

[Yevrah]

The question is; what happens next? My bet is population-flight. As fast as immigrants want to come right now, eventually they, and our native children, will start looking for greener pastures. I'll meet you lads on "the line".

Greener pastures where though?

[Spikey M]

Greener pastures where though?

Who knows. As the west declines, somewhere else will ascend. China would have been the safe-bet a decade ago, but they aren't exactly thriving at the moment either.

I imagine countries will pivot, in response to their own need for working age people and it will be down to who can offer the most attractive offer, I guess. But who knows, really? Anything could happen over the next 10 - 20 years.

[randomlegend]

Getting rid of the tRiPle LoCk would be a start.

[Lofty]

Electoral suicide though, there are plenty of seemingly well off morons who are actually completely dependent on the state pension due to having never bothered sorting their own out.

[Spikey M]

It's only Elctoral Suicide because along side not having children, the under 40's also don't fucking vote.

[niko_cee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67978736

At first I thought the 7/10 was a review of the first 100 days of the war.

[Luke Emia]

Electoral suicide though, there are plenty of seemingly well off morons who are actually completely dependent on the state pension due to having never bothered sorting their own out.

But this is where someone at some point has to do something which is for the good of the fucking country and this would be a good starting point.

As would making it law that every new-build house has to be built with solar panels and a ground source pump for heating. To save money for people now but also to make us less reliant on oil/gas in the future.

No chance of either of those things happening though because even though we would look back and say they were good things in 20/30 years time they will cause too much drama now.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Such politicians are very rare in a democracy, you need a stonking majority and a lot of self-belief to do it. God knows how they ever get anything done in proportional representation countries where you have to bring 5 coalition partners along for the ride.

[Luke Emia]

Such politicians are very rare in a democracy, you need a stonking majority and a lot of self-belief to do it. God knows how they ever get anything done in proportional representation countries where you have to bring 5 coalition partners along for the ride.

The Tories have had that though. They just pissed it up the wall for the last 4 years instead.

[Jimmy Floyd]

What did they have at its largest, 70? They used that to Get Brexit Done (which is probably an underrated achievement, tbh, because the people who decide on achievements all hate Brexit) and then it was whittled down, 50 or less and you need to bring factions of the party along with you.

Tony Blair 1997-2005 could do what he wanted with only a few left wing losers to rebel against him, which is how he was able to get quite a lot done. Thatcher I can't remember what sizes of majority she had, but it was big enough and she was a one-off anyway in terms of iron will.

[Yevrah]

Presumably the best thing to do for the country would be to go bd in nuclear power, but the country don't want that so we won't.

[randomlegend]

What did they have at its largest, 70? They used that to Get Brexit Done (which is probably an underrated achievement, tbh, because the people who decide on achievements all hate Brexit)

Probably on account of it having been demonstrably idiotic in the extreme.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Another failure of democracy, along with Lewis's inability to sell nationwide ethnic cleansing to the people. Let's make Richard Osman Dictator Emeritus and go from there. Kindness and accessible TV formats for all.

[randomlegend]

Democracy fails because there is no accountability for politicians lying through their teeth. People vote for stuff based on lies and the liars see no repercussions and keep on lying.

It becomes amazingly evident as soon as an issue you actually know about becomes news. Every politician who has been interviewed about the doctors strikes just lied with gay abandon; they are never brought up on it, they see no repercussions from it, and the average viewer watching has no way to know it's lies.

Was the same with Brexit. Every expert in their field saying "this is a bad idea because of X, Y, Z". Politicians just lie that the opposite is true. Brexit goes ahead. All experts vindicated as exactly what they said would happen, happens. Politicians who lied go off and get paid £10k a pop to do speaking.

[niko_cee]

Brexit was an ideological decision, not a practical one. Reducing it to the views of experts misses the point of it entirely. It was made at the wrong time, but you don't get to choose that sort of thing, as an electorate. You get one chance every generation, if you're lucky.

[randomlegend]

Brexit was something people voted for because they believed the lies they were told about what it would achieve. Some obviously voted for it because INGURLUND but the swing voters were just sold lies.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Maybe only experts should have the vote.

[Pepe]

Agreed.

What makes one an expert in the topic of Brexit, while we're at it?

[randomlegend]

Maybe only experts should have the vote.

Or maybe politicians shouldn't be allowed to blatantly lie.

[Pepe]

How would the process for punishing politicians for lying work?

[randomlegend]

Agreed.

What makes one an expert in the topic of Brexit, while we're at it?

Not what I said.

I said experts in their field commenting on how Brexit would impact their field of expertise. E.g. economists saying it would be disastrous for the economy. Business leaders saying it would be disastrous for business. Politicians lying and claiming it would all be positive.

What a surprise, the people who actually know about a certain field were right about how it would affect the field they know about.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Or maybe politicians shouldn't be allowed to blatantly lie.

And we're back to Richard Osman governing the country. 'Everyone should just be nicer'. Ever met humans? It's not going to happen.

[niko_cee]

The quest for objective truth continues.

[Pepe]

Economists have an excellent track record when it comes to correctly predicting outcomes, yes.

Can we also punish the experts when they are wrong (lie), or only politicians?

[randomlegend]

It's hilarious that "the people who govern us shouldn't be allowed to lie to us with impunity" is a controversial opinion.

People in other fields are subject to regulation and oversight which holds them to certain standards of integrity. E.g. if the BMA junior doctor committee went on TV and lied like politicians do, they would be punished by the GMC. The fact the same is not true of politicians - who should be held to higher standards of integrity than anyone - is laughable.

[niko_cee]

Isn't them all being voted out next time round sort of not 'impunity'? Assuming your beef is with the government.

Having some sort of arbiter of objective truth sounds a bit Orwellian or Kafkaesque.

[randomlegend]

Isn't them all being voted out next time round sort of not 'impunity'? Assuming your beef is with the government.

No, because most people don't know when they are being lied to on the majority of issues.

It's like saying I should be able to give out wilfully give out fake medical advice and my punishment will come when people decide to stop seeing me.

[niko_cee]

Give us the lie versus the objective truth.

If this ends up being like the unemployment statistics, or the bus money, or whatever else the government routinely 'lies' about then it'll be disappointing.

[Yevrah]

Remain lied as well, they just were nowhere near as good at it as leave due to the misguided belief that they were a shoe in to win.

I've been working under the assumption that the vast majority of remain voters blame racism and the LIES for the result as it's the best way they can cope with something they just can't fathom otherwise.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The ancient Egyptians believed that the world was created when the sun god Ra had a massive wank. Was this true? No, but they decided it was, so it was. There is no truth other than what groups of humans agree to be the truth. Thus begins politics.

[Pepe]

I agree with the maxim "politicians shouldn't lie." It is the "with impunity" part that I am curious about. Again, how would the punitive system for politicians who lie work?

At least I am glad to know that no doctor has ever lied in front of a TV camera. You lot truly are the beacon of light that this world needs.

Maybe doctors should run everything.

[randomlegend]

Give us the lie versus the objective truth.

If this ends up being like the unemployment statistics, or the bus money, or whatever else the government routinely 'lies' about then it'll be disappointing.

I don't keep a database, but recent examples from the Doctors stuff would be them saying (numerous times) that the consultants have accepted a pay offer (the vote hasn't even concluded yet) and that they have continued to increase real terms NHS funding every year (it is at best stagnant since 2021, if not falling).

[randomlegend]

I agree with the maxim "politicians shouldn't lie." It is the "with impunity" part that I am curious about. Again, how would the punitive system for politicians who lie work?

At least I am glad to know that no doctor has ever lied in front of a TV camera. You lot truly are the beacon of light that this world needs.

Maybe doctors should run everything.

I'm not talking about virtue. A doctor would get GMCed before they finished the sentence. A doctor was suspended for lying because they said in an email to a manager that they were "promised" a laptop and that was deemed dishonest because it was never a "promise".

What do you mean "how would it work"? You want me to explain the concept of regulation to you? You are in academia right? If you falsified some data to reach a conclusion you wanted in some research and got caught, how would that "work"?

[Yevrah]

And how old is the phrase "Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics"? This is hardly a new problem, which goes someway to explaining how hard it is to tackle. The best way to is just be better at what you're doing than the opposition. If Clinton was better (or better still Obama) then Trump doesn't win. If the remain argument was more convincing then leave doesn't win.