Like most people, I couldn't do it, but it doesn't bother me at all if other people want to. I respect people who take ethical stances, to be honest.
Like most people, I couldn't do it, but it doesn't bother me at all if other people want to. I respect people who take ethical stances, to be honest.
My girlfriend is vegan. I think it's pretty cool for anyone to put their beliefs into practice in such a committed way (except for Neo-Nazis I guess), and I think for every loud and obnoxious vegan there are probably six quiet ones just getting on with things. I can't really fault the reasons for it either, the means of production for most of our food do seem at least a little fucked up, and the only thing that makes me okay with it is being able to ignore it. I could go vegetarian and I think I will at some point, but I'm not sure I could ever be a vegan.
I respect people who take ethical stances, except when said stances are based on stupid premises.
Well I'll be praying for Steve the Cow as I sit at work today. May his body parts never end up in my McMuffin.
Is never being born better than being killed?
I'd say it's closer to 50:50.Originally Posted by Spoonsky
You're quite obtuse on this subject.
Their population would decline steeply, but that's mainly due to the fact that they're artificially overpopulated for the benefit of animal agriculture.
Add to the fact that many cows have a diet consisting of only corn and soy based food, to fatten the fuckers up. And then they're pumped* with antibiotics which studies have found directly affect your immunity to antibiotics through eating the animal.
None of that bothers you?
Edit: *fed
I love how medicine (when it's supposed to be bad for whatever reason) is always pumped into things, like they're Ben Johnson or something.
Absolutely PUMPED into them.
Good point. It's not pumped in at all.
Still think the point stands.
To counter that argument, history has shown many doomsday predictions that have not come true. Maybe this is just one of them and none of us should be bothered.
Let's be real. It's not just medicine they put in there. Pump or no pump.
When working for DuPont my first week involved recording a sales pitch that would go to our various people who pitched M&S/Sainsburys/Waitrose to buy chickens from people who we provided services to. Our pitch was that our chickens would be heavier due to a patented enzyme that we inject into them that causes them to take on more water so would look heavier (and therefore cost more to the end consumer), despite all that evaporating in the oven.
It's not just medicine.
I completely see the ethical/moral arguments in favour of this stuff, and have difficulty in offering a rejoinder. I just like meat too much.
Also, if we're going to class veganism as child abuse, then many (or most) parents who feed their children absolute swill are also guilty of same.
I don't think anyone has ever disputed that. You regularly see criticism of people for it.I completely see the ethical/moral arguments in favour of this stuff, and have difficulty in offering a rejoinder. I just like meat too much.
Also, if we're going to class veganism as child abuse, then many (or most) parents who feed their children absolute swill are also guilty of same.
Religion too. Let's not forget that.
I love ya Jimmy but any talk of parents "forcing" veganism/vegetarianism is the stupidest fucking bollocks argument ever. Especially when you're exactly the kind of pleasant One Nation Tory who'd be absolutely fine with parents enforcing other stuff on their kids in the guise of parental authority.
I think there's a distinction to be made between exerting control over them for their own good (i.e. not letting them eat 100 Krispy Kremes a week) and forcing your opinions on them, whether those be diet opinions, political opinions, religious opinions, or anything else.
If moral relativism has gone so far that people refuse to make that distinction, then good luck with your shitty sprogs I guess.
I do see your point, but I think that it's quite a complex distinction. I also reckon that very few parents would match your own expectations - even more relaxed parents "force their opinions" upon their children, though obviously it varies between the soft power of osmosis and the hard power of strict rules. For the record I think you'd be a top, top dad, even though your kids would probably end up massive Tories.
Soft power is fine as you can't do anything about that. The worst parents in my experience are the militant ones, whether it's rich lefties refusing to send them to private schools even though it means their kids get a worse education, or the Asian you-be-doctor types refusing to allow them any freedom, or indeed the posho bastard ones buying them flats at 19 and refusing to let them experience any sort of self-making period or ever mix with the riff raff.
Well, I guess parents on drugs or who leave are worse than those, but you know what I mean.
There’s nothing quite like reading a discussion about parenting between childless people. Whatever you think it’s like, whatever you think you’ll do, bin the lot of it. I spent 20 minutes convincing my 2 year old to let me put her nappy on her at the weekend, never mind convincing her to eat her broccoli.
Yeah and I agree with all of that. I guess my perspective is that there's a grey area between hard and soft power for something like vegetarianism. I spose I think if you only serve your children vegan/vegetarian food (and like, you wouldn't ask a 5 year old what they wanted for dinner because that's mad), that's absolutely fine, but if they're like 14 and it's verboten even if they're getting lunch with their mates it's not okay.
Is refusing to sere anything other than vegetarian food / buy meat for a, I dunno, 12 year old kid who wants to eat meat exerting unacceptable force on the child? I'm not sure. What do you reckon @Jimmy Floyd ?
I don't know what age the cut-off point is. Secondary school? I mean if vegetarian food is what is served in the house then fine, but coercing them into never going for a Maccies at the age when that becomes a thing is ridiculous.
There's a great scene in a film I watched 15 years ago and can't remember the name of in which Asian kids are rebelling and cooking bacon in the kitchen, then mum comes home and they end up concealing it about their person to avoid her wrath. That sort of fear is what needs binning.
That's because the quiet ones just get on with things.
What the fuck is this discussion about veganism being some kind of cult diet imposed on children?
Parents moderate diets for their children. It's part of the job.
Aside from that, day-in, day-out meat eating isn't environmentally sustainable in its current form. I look forward to my meat coming from giant silos that grow meat from cultured animal cells.
Just give me all my produce, dairy and meat from silos, cans and pods that are ten to twenty times more resource-efficient, involve almost no transportation, and don't require killing anything.
The best arguments for veganism are in animal ethics and environmental sustainability anyway.
Also, I like that Jimmy had no retort for Dquincy regarding artificially inflated populations.
Environmental
Go away you awful, awful man.
Awful.
Animal ethics.
No such thing as an artificially inflated population. Either they're alive or they're not. They're species who have succeeded by allying with us, in the same way that lychen and trees benefit from one another.
All species will gladly 'inflate' their populations. That's their number one goal.
How does the 'animal ethics' crew feel about enslaving dogs? Would they be better off having their freedoms?
Awful, you say?
Does anyone want to talk GMOs?
An average pet dog has a much more joyful (sorry Jimmy, I mean happier, I mean better) life than a farmed chicken that can't move without slapping another chicken in the face.
They'd be better off having their freedom if their conditions were awful, just like the worst kept cow or chicken would be.
Your first sentance. I was going to say the exact same thing.
He eats broccoli though, providing I refer to them as "broccotrees".
I tried releasing Brock into the wild during the summer and he just fell asleep in the front garden.
Jesus, you're a parent? Poor fucker's got no chance.Your first sentance. I was going to say the exact same thing.
He eats broccoli though, providing I refer to them as "broccotrees".
Food technologies are great unless they're killing loads of birds and bees. The main issue is with the business practices of major players like Monsanto. The only draw to "organic" foods is that they tend to be locally sourced.Does anyone want to talk GMOs?
Can't wait for Monsanto to start selling their lab meat. I'm sure that vegans will love it as much as their lab vegetables. Or is the plan to support the local, small batch biotech lab?
I agree with the above, btw.
Not killing animals > killing animalsAnimal ethics.
Animals not living in dire conditions > animals living in dire conditions
Given that my dog will get to do things she enjoys like go on walks, get treats and lick my face until she dies of old age (or an accident) rather than being slaughtered once she's ripe enough, I think there might be a difference between having a pet and raising livestock.
Livestock exist for their meat, eggs, dairy, fur, leather, and other useful giblets. If you define human societies in their current states as 'natural', then yes, you are correct that there are no populations with artificially high numbers as their populations are as high as they are to meet our demands. If you define human societies in their current states as 'unnatural' or 'artificial' given that they tend to thrive outside of the constraints of balanced ecological systems, then no, no you are wrong that there are no populations with artificially high numbers as their populations are only so high because we have manufactured an economic system that allows for livestock to exist in numbers without competition or ecological constraints.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm having pork tenderloin tonight that was sourced from a major farming operator in my province. I'm not a vegan.
But it'd be better if the pork were grown in a cell culture rather than the pig, and that the pig didn't have to exist just to be killed in the first place.
People who operate inside the vegan subcultures that intersect directly with other subcultures like yogis, paleos, spiritualists and don't trust "science" are all morons. You can get better quality produce from a specially-engineered seacan with perfect growing conditions than you can on a farm. You can let the farmers transition their lands to environmental reserves to preserve regional biodiversity, and the farmers can become the people who operate the seacans. Do the same with ranchers with your specially-engineered meat silos, and the world is golden again with locally-sourced, resource-efficient, cruelty-free foods.
I understand why people choose to go vegan for animal cruelty or environmental reasons (vegan diets tend to be locally-oriented), but if those people refuse to get on board with lab-grown foods, they're idiots.
Animal cruelty meat tastes so much sweeter.
Shame that all that super-efficient lab meat is still nowhere near being a reality. Well, ten years away if you trust the scientists behind it. Then again, everything is ten years away if you ask the people working on it. We'll see how it goes. The fun part will be witnessing the mass hysteria when (if) it becomes a reality and one person gets diarrhea.
Pepe making the 5th grader argument about 'enslaving dogs' while lolling off animal cruelty is the stupidest thing in a thread that should act as a reminder of how the socially awkward so often also tend to be the least pleasant and un-empathetic
The hippy thing is one of the past. The majority are frankly quite plain-ish, 20-40 something’s who’ve just swapped out meat and dairy for plants. Those in the ‘RAW’ camp are more likely to make a song and dance out of it, and talk about what’s natural. For me, as Gang of Four would say, Natural’s Not In It [the argument].
The Beyond Meat stuff which is available now and gives lab grown a run for its money by stripping back plant protein constructs at a molecular level to imitate meat, and which is somewhat famous stateside due to Bill Gates investment and TGI Fridays having recently added their stuff to the menu, will likely bridge the gap until lab grown is efficient for the conscientious consumer that can’t bare to not eat meat/something very meat-like.
Many vegans aren’t even on board with that, but it tends just to be those who’ve been doing it for years or who have for a long time been actively disgusted by flesh. For me right now, I’m looking forward to trying Beyond’s bleeding burger soon. It looks fucking incredible. But I don’t see why there’s a need to chastise those that can’t stomach the idea of eating something akin to that which they’ve considered so egregious for some time.
Unless you simply mean they’re stupid to oppose the idea that lab grown would eventually take over and negate the need for veganism? In which case, I’d agree.
The point, which you would never get obviously, is that applying human ethical standards to animals is stupid. More importantly, saying that their 'quality of life' is shit, therefore we should get rid of them is the slipperiest of slopes imaginable. They much rather exist than not, but seeing them 'suffer' makes us feel bad, so lets just get rid of them. For their own sake of course.
Not that I don' agree with Panda's point that
but then if we all stop eating meat, that will lead to more animals being killed, not less. So we then have to choose whether life or quality of life is more important, and we haven't even gotten into the human side of it. Asking for cows to be treated nicely is all well and good from your Silicon Valley loft. Ask the farmer who will need to dedicate half of his land to cow-recess what he prefers, or the person on food stamps.Not killing animals > killing animals
Animals not living in dire conditions > animals living in dire conditions
That is the part I never understood. What is the need to quit meat, but then insist on eating something meat-like? Vegetarian food can be delicious. I eat meat for like two meals per week at most, and I don't feel it is any sort of sacrifice. If I wanted to eat even less meat I could easily do so. Even then, if one day I just craved meat, then I would just go ahead and eat a piece of fucking meat. Not everything has to be all or nothing.
Brb, gonna go eat my mealsquare.
You said 'Animal ethics
"Asking for cows to be treated nicely is all well and good from your Silicon Valley loft". Lit. You could make the same argument for allowing factories to pollute at will. We haven't thought about the human side of it!
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