The EU Referendum thread - sponsored by Harold's YouTube videos

[GS]

It all points to the theory that he never thought he'd win, but could make political gain from a plucky and narrow defeat.

Which makes him a complete shithouse.

I never doubted this was his intention, but considered the ends justified the means if Leave won and it meant the restoration of genuine democracy to the country.

The mentalist is proposing more than EEA membership. Freedom of movement but only for Brits. No payment to the EU budget. A seat at the table where all big decisions are made. He's off his tits.

He's probably still in campaign mode with the Tory leadership coming up. Gove said during the campaign we couldn't have access to the single market if we wanted to control immigration. He knows the craic, really, so presumably he'll be in charge of negotiations and will come out with something vaguely sensible.

[Yevrah]

The mentalist is proposing more than EEA membership. Freedom of movement but only for Brits. No payment to the EU budget. A seat at the table where all big decisions are made. He's off his tits.

Yep, this line from his article had me spitting my coffee out.

British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down.

Fucking seriously?

[GS]

To be fair, he hasn't said that's within the system of free movement. You can still do that, providing you have some sort of skill to offer. You can't have a loafer go and live in Paris because "bohemian lifestyle, mate".

[Raoul Duke]

It all points to the theory that he never thought he'd win, but could make political gain from a plucky and narrow defeat.

Which makes him a complete shithouse.

This was absolutely clear from the outset. That people on the 'Brexit' side are just waking up to this now is pretty amusing.

[Shindig]

They have plenty of French people already doing that. Lol, 'strikes'.

[Lee]

He's probably still in campaign mode with the Tory leadership coming up. Gove said during the campaign we couldn't have access to the single market if we wanted to control immigration. He knows the craic, really, so presumably he'll be in charge of negotiations and will come out with something vaguely sensible.

If Johnson becomes PM he is absolutely not instructing anybody to do anything which would negotiate away single market access. He's pro-immigration anyway. As is Gove, but at least he is a pragmatic sort.

If you want us to leave the EU you need to be signing up as a Tory member and voting against Johnson, ideally for some right winger who will lose a General Election but have us out by then anyway. Johnson will not be doing it.

[Yevrah]

To be fair, he hasn't said that's within the system of free movement. You can still do that, providing you have some sort of skill to offer. You can't have a loafer go and live in Paris because "bohemian lifestyle, mate".

Yeah, I did countenance that he was getting at that, but the general tone of the article suggests he's living in some sort of fantasy land where there'll be no drawbacks to leaving whatsoever.

[GS]

This was absolutely clear from the outset. That people on the 'Brexit' side are just waking up to this now is pretty amusing.

Quite. They should have accepted it was a political necessity for the leave side if they were going to compete, but buying into the idea he was doing it out of principle is a right laugh.

Gove's the brains of the operation, but he's also a true believer in it. If he leads the negotiations, we might be fine.

[Lee]

To be fair, he hasn't said that's within the system of free movement. You can still do that, providing you have some sort of skill to offer. You can't have a loafer go and live in Paris because "bohemian lifestyle, mate".

This is like when Savile wasn't a paedo or Armstrong wasn't a cheat. The bloke's a con artist. Don't do it to yourself.

[GS]

If Johnson becomes PM he is absolutely not instructing anybody to do anything which would negotiate away single market access. He's pro-immigration anyway. As is Gove, but at least he is a pragmatic sort.

If you want us to leave the EU you need to be signing up as a Tory member and voting against Johnson, ideally for some right winger who will lose a General Election but have us out by then anyway. Johnson will not be doing it.

We're fucked as a country, aren't we.

[Yevrah]

This was absolutely clear from the outset. That people on the 'Brexit' side are just waking up to this now is pretty amusing.

Oh I'm sure people knew he was doing it for political gain, but they assumed he'd at least have an idea of what do to if he won. It was never that unlikely that it would go the way it has.

[Raoul Duke]

Quite. They should have accepted it was a political necessity for the leave side if they were going to compete, but buying into the idea he was doing it out of principle is a right laugh.

Gove's the brains of the operation, but he's also a true believer in it. If he leads the negotiations, we might be fine.

Gove is as unelectable as PM as Corbyn though, hence why he needs BoJo. Gove looks like a nonce

[GS]

This is like when Savile wasn't a paedo or Armstrong wasn't a cheat. The bloke's a con artist. Don't do it to yourself.

I'll give it a couple of years, but I will be SEETHING if we don't end up in a situation where we demonstrably control all laws (short of international law) in this jurisdiction.

[Lewis]

We should do nothing for a year and let them blink first (or the Rhodesia Option). Whatever happens, we can't have free movement, even if it means waving the single market goodbye.

[GS]

Gove's is as unelectable as PM as Corbyn though, hence why he needs BoJo. Gove looks like a nonce

I agree - Gove can lead the negotiations from No 11 or the FCO. I'd prefer Theresa May as Prime Minister to Boris, I reckon.

[GS]

We should do nothing for a year and let them blink first (or the Rhodesia Option). Whatever happens, we can't have free movement, even if it means waving the single market goodbye.

The Canadian model they've just negotiated looks an eminently sensible starting point for discussion.

[7om]

If Johnson becomes PM he is absolutely not instructing anybody to do anything which would negotiate away single market access. He's pro-immigration anyway. As is Gove, but at least he is a pragmatic sort.

If you want us to leave the EU you need to be signing up as a Tory member and voting against Johnson, ideally for some right winger who will lose a General Election but have us out by then anyway. Johnson will not be doing it.

The only saving grace for the Tories is that there is nobody else even remotely electable. It's now a case of a Tory coming forward to either fuck the referendum over or be the one to lead us out of Europe. Labour aren't getting a sniff.

[Raoul Duke]

May is a total shithouse. The 'Snoopers Charter' was a horrific overreach of government powers

[Yevrah]

Are any bookies taking bets on when article 50 is triggered? With 'never' as an option?

Could make for a nice pension fund.

[GS]

May is a total shithouse. The 'Snoopers Charter' was a horrific overreach of government powers

Needs must.

[Lee]

Sounds like it's time for Prime Minister Liam Fox.

[Lewis]

If nothing else, the European Union putting not wanting others to leave above a mutually-beneficial trade agreement proves exactly why we had to fuck them off, so I reckon you could carry most leave voters with you if you refused to entertain free movement.

[Lee]

If nothing else, the European Union putting not wanting others to leave above a mutually-beneficial trade agreement proves exactly why we had to fuck them off, so I reckon you could carry most leave voters with you if you refused to entertain free movement.

Definitely. The next Tory leader ought to promise that they won't accept free movement as part of any deal then call and election. Every other party is fucked. The Lib Dems will recover a bit picking up a few middle class remainers but other than that you're looking at winning a huge majority with a mandate to carry out a proper hardnosed negotiation.

[7om]

Diane Abbott was absolutely unbearable on the QT special. Having a pop at the Leave side for not getting us out the day after the pissing referendum made her look mentally ill.

[ItalAussie]

I've been off travelling, so I only caught sketchy details of how it all went down.

But overall, I'm disappointed that the vote went the way it did. I'm not angry or mortified or anything like that, because it doesn't really affect me anymore. But I'm kind of sad, because I think the UK is only hurting itself, and to a lesser extent hurting the European project (which I think is a great idea, and still should be). The fallout since then has been a bit crazy, but on the whole, democracy was done.

[elth]

Those nasty remain campaigners saying a Leave vote would result in instability and chaos are sure getting shown up.

[Shindig]

BBC are doing 5Live Breakfast from some bloke's house in Middlesbrough. He voted Leave because Boro is skint. "£350m a week and I don't know how much we get back..."

Mate, that's because Westminster doesn't give a fuck about Middlesbrough. Westminster.

EDIT: Decent speech, George. Shame about the questions afterwards. Tories are fucked. Labour is fucked. Piers Morgan made a quip about everyone all getting behind it and everything being okay. Cunt.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Theresa May is the worst of all possible options for PM. Awful, awful person who stands for nothing. Even John Redwood would be better.

[Dquincy]

What happened with the questions afterwards? Did he struggle to answer them?

[Shindig]

During the campaign he was going on about how we needed a swift response to an exit. That includes an emergency budget he touted that would be needed within days. During the speech he was going on about how we had time to play with and there would be no emergency budget.

[niko_cee]

Isn't it patently obvious that everyone was lying across the board during the campaign? The reason for this is that when you say something vaguely truthful (Jez I'm 7.5/10 on this EU business) you are lampooned and blamed. Of course there was going to be market shock in the event of an exit, particularly when the fucking market, which apparently we should be entrusting the democratic process over to, got it so fucking spectacularly wrong in the first place.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Indeed, one of the biggest unremarked lols in this whole thing was the hedge funds and their privately commissioned exit polls making a complete cunt of it and everyone in the City being taken by as much surprise as the bleeding heart wankers on Twitter.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Diane Abbott takes over at Shadow Health.

[Bartholomert]

Of course they don't. This is a party whose MPs deliberately lent him votes so that his "voice could be heard" in a leadership contest.

The Labour Party does not, and has never, existed for the type of people who currently run it. Traditional Labour voters want their manual jobs back, don't like immigration and would quite like to bring back hanging and use it on paedophiles. UKIP have identified that and it's why they're shitting the life out of Labour in their heartlands. They want a leader with a northern accent who will tell the posh boys to fuck off. It isn't electable, but it's what they want.

The people running the show at the minute are wankers like me. Do-gooders, university educated public servants who think they know best, overestimate their own intellect and would rather never set foot in a council estate for as long as they live. They "feel European" because they see immigration at the tapas bar or in the Lithuanian bird they pay to do their ironing.

What I'm saying is, they're fucking Liberal Democrats. They've stolen the Labour Party because there was a base there and it allowed them to win a few elections when somebody half charismatic turned up, but ultimately they hate the people they ask to vote for them and the feeling is mutual.

They're probably the worst kind of people and I'm one of the cunts.

Dat self-awareness

[Lee]

This whole thing looks like it has been a massive waste of time. It's obvious we are going to end up with EEA status. What was the point?

[Dquincy]

This whole thing looks like it has been a massive waste of time. It's obvious we are going to end up with EEA status. What was the point?

Because it means we're not in the club, but we still get some benefit from the club...i think?

[phonics]

These resignations are getting silly now. It's getting to the point where it's like they've just made up a politician and a post and just gone with it.

"I, Jeoffrey Berkshire, have resigned from my position as The Shadow Minister For Sugar, Spice and Everything Nice"

[Jimmy Floyd]

Tom Watson has told him to resign. Not really sure how it's got to the stage where Tom Watson telling someone to resign constitutes a significant escalation, but here we are.

Hang in there, Jezza. The Russians are nowhere near Berlin.

[Yevrah]

This whole thing looks like it has been a massive waste of time. It's obvious we are going to end up with EEA status. What was the point?

I'm honestly not sure even that's going to happen. I don't think anyone with the conviction of their beliefs to pull us out is anything like close enough to be in a position to actually do it.

[Lee]

I'm honestly not sure even that's going to happen. I don't think anyone with the conviction of their beliefs to pull us out is anything like close enough to be in a position to actually do it.

Someone like Leadsom might. She has a chance of becoming leader if she stands, I reckon. I think she's quite impressive. Gove would push for it too. Everything coming from Johnson suggests he'd get away with it if he can find a way. The Germans would quite like it too. Odds on a referendum on the proposed deal, or a GE with that as the main campaign theme?

I think the problem is that he consensus is we may well be fucked if we don't manage to negotiate access to the single market. We can only get that by accepting the rules and that includes freedom of movement.

You'd think (I have no idea) we are more valuable to the EU than Norway so may get something on movement. Such as it being stipulated that people can come in if they have a job lined up. But most EU immigrants work anyway so there won't be much difference. Get a holiday VISA, find a job.

UKIP are going to fucking boom at the next election.

[Jimmy Floyd]

The thing is, UKIP have sort of been seen as acceptable cranks up until this point because their raison d'etre has been leaving the EU. If their raison d'etre shifts to being anti-immigration, they're basically the BNP, and I don't think an actual far right party would get any traction here.

That said, all these Labour voters will have to go somewhere.

[Lee]

It will be "Leave the EU because the establishment haven't really done it" combined with immigration. Don't underestimate the extent to which that will be successful. There were plenty of good reasons to vote leave. Immigration among them.

But a lot of the white working class genuinely are thick and racist. I've lived with them. I've had conversations with relatives who voted Leave "to get rid of the Muslims". They're fucking idiots. Fair play to Farage, he knows exactly what he's doing. They'll lap up the UKIP message. UKIP, even if they went mental, are not going to be like the BNP. They're now the acceptable representatives of a pretty horrible seam of thought. They stand to mop up.

[phonics]

I've had conversations with relatives who voted Leave "to get rid of the Muslims".

Having spoken with family members from Brum since the vote. This is the overwhelming thing I heard. One sentence was, "The Hindu's were alright even if they do smell funny, we thought the Pakis were bad but this Muslim lot take the biscuit" followed by a 5 minute rant on taking back the borders.

I didn't bother with a follow up.

[Jimmy Floyd]

Nevertheless, the total hypocrisy of those seething Remainers is as bad as anything the white working class may or may not be up to. There are absolutely no questions being asked about why 17.4 million people have come to disagree with them, apparently they are just all stupid. If it's so obviously stupid, why did all those people vote for it and why did a highly funded campaign consisting of the full political and business establishment fail to convince them otherwise? These are the questions they should be asking. Self-pitying tossers.

[Lee]

Nevertheless, the total hypocrisy of those seething Remainers is as bad as anything the white working class may or may not be up to. There are absolutely no questions being asked about why 17.4 million people have come to disagree with them, apparently they are just all stupid. If it's so obviously stupid, why did all those people vote for it and why did a highly funded campaign consisting of the full political and business establishment fail to convince them otherwise? These are the questions they should be asking. Self-pitying tossers.

These people have been ignored for years. That's the problem. The major parties give a fuck about a few marginal seats and that's your lot. Look at who voted Leave. Look where they live. Post-industrial towns that have been ignored for years. Is it any wonder that they voted against those they perceive to have left them in the shit?

I don't say that people voted Leave because they are stupid. I say they voted Leave because people on that side of the argument, Farage in particular, realised they actually have to speak to them to win elections. Turnout was up because the white working class had something to vote for.

[Jimmy Floyd]

All correct, but the Remainer attitude (I'm talking about wankers on twitter here, but it's clearly a widely held thought in London) seems to be that the post-industrial white working class are actually some kind of untermensch whose views and lives are less valuable than their own.

Yes, I went there.

[GS]

Owen Smith, Angela Eagle and Lisa Nandy are all set to resign, and the latter is currently favourite for the leadership.

I'm genuinely aghast at the state of things.

[Lee]

All correct, but the Remainer attitude (I'm talking about wankers on twitter here, but it's clearly a widely held thought in London) seems to be that the post-industrial white working class are actually some kind of untermensch whose views and lives are less valuable than their own.

Yes, I went there.

I have come across people who would deny them the vote. Seriously.

Nandy has ruled out standing as leader, Owen Smith (who?) has said Corbyn has to go or face a formal split.

[Lee]

Owen Smith, Angela Eagle and Lisa Nandy are all set to resign, and the latter is currently favourite for the leadership.

I'm genuinely aghast at the state of things.

The Thick of It team couldn't have written this. Our leaders have lost an election and they've responded by hiding. They are literally hiding.

We are effectively without a government and the opposition are imploding. People like me ought not worry about leaving the EU. We are more European than we've ever been, on account of having transformed into fucking Belgium.

[GS]

It's genuinely disgracefully the way they're behaving.

Corbyn still clinging on is the stuff of nightmare. Stop being such a wanker, for fuck sake.