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Thread: Veganism

  1. #51
    Bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuno Reg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe View Post
    The main driver of, well, everything non-human species do is survival of their species. Deciding that their extinction is morally better than them having a shit life is just projecting.
    In what sense? Because we know animals feel emotions, so surely not existing at all is better than having a dreadful life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disco View Post
    Anthropomorphising much? The alternative is half the population starving to death, half of the rest eaten alive by predators and all of them being riddled with disease all the time. Animals on a micro and macro level are demonstrably better off if they're part of human agriculture.

    Also, lol at 'being pumped full of harmful chemicals', think that one through for a minute.
    That's not the alternative. The alternative is that the vast majority don't exist in the first place.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    In what sense? Because we know animals feel emotions, so surely not existing at all is better than having a dreadful life.
    Maybe for you. Has anyone asked the cows what they prefer? Is cow suicide on the rise?

  3. #53
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis View Post
    'I’m a threat because I’m different'. Mate you've given up ham. You're not Martin Luther.
    A threat.

  4. #54
    Bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuno Reg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe View Post
    Maybe for you. Has anyone asked the cows what they prefer? Is cow suicide on the rise?
    If they knew how to commit suicide then I'd imagine it would be in the worst cases.

    You seem to be refusing to be realistic about some of the conditions and therefore lives.

  5. #55
    More successful than most Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Merse View Post
    Like any emotive cause it tends to boil over sometimes. I’m biased of course, but I’d encourage you to be more balanced in recognising/researching the instances of violence towards vegan activists.

    Additionally, the so called militants aren’t representative of the whole. One of my best mates returned to Ireland to take on his dads dairy and lambing farms recently. We remain close, though he knows I’m opposed to his and his families profession.

    As for the whole ‘how do you know who’s a vegan’ thing and the general attitude towards vegans as being oddball militants... it’s a six of one half a dozen case for me. From one side, of course anyone consciously objecting to a societal norm tends to be vocal on the subject, and this is true of pretty much any such cause. In tandem, those following the societal norm tend to lash out at those who object. As with many such causes I struggle to understand why it’s quite so precedent to rally against and ridicule my choices, but I do understand the (evolutionary) psychology behind it. I’m a threat because I’m different, but I also choose to believe, and have done for as long as I can remember, that a key measure of human progress is in rebuking against the more unsavoury elements of our instinctive psyche - not seeing people of another colour as threats as they’re obviously from a different tribe, not viewing those outside of societal norms as a threat due to the inherent threat of instability in a community caused by dissent, etc etc.

    Going a little deep and probably talking some bollocks but fuck it, this train journey is boring.
    Fucking hell.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    I know the conditions are shit. I just don't think any species would rather go extinct. Their instinct says 'survival over all,' so I assume they rather have survival over extinction. Then I again, I haven't asked the cows either.

  7. #57
    More successful than most Magic's Avatar
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    Every time Merse comes back on here for a bit he seems to project an even more tragic version of himself.

  8. #58
    Senior Member The Merse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis View Post
    'I’m a threat because I’m different'. Mate you've given up ham. You're not Martin Luther.
    I did mean to add a line caveating that so not to leave the door open to ridicule.

    I’m not suggesting anyone is a threat. But it’s that psychology that can be attributed as the basis of the bulling of kids for wearing the wrong clothes, trans/gay-bashing, even schisms due to visible (more likely audible) accents of differing socio economic backgrounds etc.

  9. #59
    Bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuno Reg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe View Post
    I know the conditions are shit. I just don't think any species would rather go extinct. Their instinct says 'survival over all,' so I assume they rather have survival over extinction. Then I again, I haven't asked the cows either.
    I kind of agree there. But again the alternative is really that they don't exist at all. So they wouldn't have the instinct in the first place.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    We should apply the same solution to the bottom billion then, because their life does look pretty shit.

  11. #61
    Senior Member The Merse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic View Post
    Every time Merse comes back on here for a bit he seems to project an even more tragic version of himself.
    Alright mate. I might give the new missus the heave actually, as she’s cool and all that but It’s got a bit stale. Figure it best to do so before her and her family make my life a misery for 8 years and no doubt go on to weaponise my progeny to do the same thereafter...

    How’s life? I’ve not been keeping up.

  12. #62
    mischamischaracterisation Dquincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Merse View Post
    Where did I talk about harmful chemicals? Edit- ah see that was Reg.

    And yes, I understand. Obviously in an ideal world we’d ‘manage’ the population into something sustainable, due to the fact that we’ve inorganically created most breeds of cows now. But, basically they need to face the same challenges as other species.

    Your assumption of the benefit to the animal is based on the idea that health alone is a measure of welfare. That’s bollocks as far as I’m concerned.
    I agree with the majority of what you’ve said in your posts; you’re pretty much spot on in my view. I think a lot of meat eaters (including me) are ignorant to animal agriculture and the potential health issues that come with it.

    The population growth rate surely means something needs to give. Not in our lifetime, but certainly in the future as the demand gets even greater. That’s a shitload of cows to feed that lot.

    1812 : 1.5 billion people
    1912 : 2.5 billion
    2012 : 7 billion

    Still probably won’t become vegan however. I’m a terrible person.

  13. #63
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    To reiterate, I do think that the 'environmentally friendly' argument for veganism is valid. As for animal farming, shit like silvopasture should be the way forward.

  14. #64
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    As for environmentalism, it is probably better to eat locally sourced beef than quinoa, but lets not get too much into details.

  15. #65
    Senior Member Disco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    That's not the alternative. The alternative is that the vast majority don't exist in the first place.
    I mean in comparison to a wild species, for which conditions are orders of magnitude worse/'crueler'.

  16. #66
    Senior Member Disco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    If they knew how to commit suicide then I'd imagine it would be in the worst cases.

    You seem to be refusing to be realistic about some of the conditions and therefore lives.
    Just out of interest, which conditions?

  17. #67
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Merse View Post
    Alright mate. I might give the new missus the heave actually, as she’s cool and all that but It’s got a bit stale. Figure it best to do so before her and her family make my life a misery for 8 years and no doubt go on to weaponise my progeny to do the same thereafter...

    How’s life? I’ve not been keeping up.
    Have a sausage roll lad.

  18. #68
    More successful than most Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Merse View Post
    Alright mate. I might give the new missus the heave actually, as she’s cool and all that but It’s got a bit stale. Figure it best to do so before her and her family make my life a misery for 8 years and no doubt go on to weaponise my progeny to do the same thereafter...

    How’s life? I’ve not been keeping up.
    If this is how bitter a veg only diet makes you I'll pass.

  19. #69
    Bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuno Reg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disco View Post
    I mean in comparison to a wild species, for which conditions are orders of magnitude worse/'crueler'.
    Yep, agree (in the majority of cases anyway).

    Quote Originally Posted by Disco View Post
    Just out of interest, which conditions?
    The kinds Merse spoke about. And things like this. There's no joy in that. (I presume. I've not researched anything that specific, and I'm not a chicken.)

  20. #70
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Chickens don't feel fucking joy.

  21. #71
    Senior Member Alan Shearer The 2nd's Avatar
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    Being vegetarian would be bloody awful, don't even want to imagine how dull being vegan must be.

    The girlfriend is vegetarian (briefly had her eating chicken and fish) and cooking meals is a pain in the ass a lot of the time.

  22. #72
    Bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuno Reg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Floyd View Post
    Chickens don't feel fucking joy.
    They may not feel joy as such but animals feel happiness, sadness, fear, grief etc.

  23. #73
    mischamischaracterisation Dquincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Floyd View Post
    Chickens don't feel fucking joy.
    Studies have found they can feel pain, fear, and stress.

    I also think it’s no coincidence that the one ‘meat’ that meat eaters often don’t enjoy is seafood, which often resembles its appearance when it was alive (still has its face, etc). You have no such issue with beef and pork dishes, and to a lesser extent poultry. We can eat those dishes without being reminded at the dinner table of what it looked like when being alive.

  24. #74
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Yeah so an absence of those things can be aimed for. Not joy.

  25. #75
    More successful than most Magic's Avatar
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    Anyone watch the vids of the cow having its baby taken? You could see it was absolutely devastated. Shame.

    Oh well, veal burgers for tea.

  26. #76
    Senior Member Disco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    The kinds Merse spoke about. And things like this. There's no joy in that. (I presume. I've not researched anything that specific, and I'm not a chicken.)
    Now are you sure you aren't a chicken? Have we ever had a mugshot? TTH deserves the truth Reg.

    I think it's worth pointing out that isn't in this country, there are immensely tight rules surrounding how animals are reared (more than there are around domestic pets or children for that matter) and farms are inspected constantly. It is a myth that food animals in this country are kept in poor conditions, anyone claiming otherwise is either woefully misinformed or has an agenda of some kind.

  27. #77
    Senior Member Disco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Floyd View Post
    Chickens don't feel fucking joy.
    Have you not seen Chicken Run?

  28. #78
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    Lewis, mate, I bet you couldn't look a fish in the eye and then dig in. I dare you.

  29. #79
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    Less fish in the sea means lower sea levels, so I would feel compelled to eat him/her on ethical grounds.

  30. #80
    Bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuno Reg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disco View Post
    I think it's worth pointing out that isn't in this country, there are immensely tight rules surrounding how animals are reared (more than there are around domestic pets or children for that matter) and farms are inspected constantly. It is a myth that food animals in this country are kept in poor conditions, anyone claiming otherwise is either woefully misinformed or has an agenda of some kind.
    Yeah the UK is a lot better than America (to my knowledge) and elsewhere, but it also depends where you buy your meat / animal products and what you consider poor conditions.

  31. #81
    ram it up your shitpipe Giggles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis View Post
    'I’m a threat because I’m different'. Mate you've given up ham. You're not Martin Luther.
    which one of them said that?

    I'm guessing Merse but I zoned out very early on in his waffle.

  32. #82
    More successful than most Magic's Avatar
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    Has anyone ever looked at the lesbian Jack Sparrow and felt threatened?

  33. #83
    ram it up your shitpipe Giggles's Avatar
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    I never actually realised we had a live vegan headcase on here.

  34. #84
    Senior Member Spikey M's Avatar
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    Going from ‘not all vegans are mental cases, I have a (presumably black) farmer friend’ to becoming the embodiment of Tumblr in 2 pages is good going.

  35. #85
    Senior Member John's Avatar
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    Even that roasting div with the double barrelled French surname isn't as big a vegan headbanger as Merse here.

  36. #86
    ram it up your shitpipe Giggles's Avatar
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    It's early and I'm bored so I read back. Fucking hell Merse doesn't do anything for the whole 'vegans aren't crackpots' thing does he? I'd say he could justify any sort of dangerous behaviour towards people to himself in the name of the cause.

  37. #87
    mischamischaracterisation Dquincy's Avatar
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    Plucky cow makes an escape for it.

    http://news.sky.com/story/hero-cow-e...sland-11255824

  38. #88
    Senior Member Andy's Avatar
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    I am so far away from being a vegan or vegetarian but I am slowly cutting out meat and dairy products. I doubt I'll ever completely cut them out but small changes help.

    It's mainly from a personal health view point, I'm filling meals up with less meat and more vegetables and trying to cut down on the dairy products. I've switched from milk to almond milk which lasts longer, fewer calories and tastes the same for the smoothies I make.

    I've cut out 90% of the processed meat I used to eat, sausages, ham, bacon, burgers etc and that alongside the extra vegetable intake has made a real impact on my overall health.

    I went from 15 stone at the end of 2016 to 12.5 stone in June last year when I made all these changes

    I think a lot of people could do with thinking about what they put in their mouth, so much of the food industry is total shite.

  39. #89
    ram it up your shitpipe Giggles's Avatar
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    Health is the only reason for doing it.

    It's actually sad to see so many fall into line with it though.




    .

  40. #90
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    I've gone in the opposite direction, increased the amount of meat, fish and so on, and just massively cut down on carbohydrates (to the extent that even when I go for a curry I don't want rice, naan or anything with it). I feel a lot better for it.

    There is no reason for human beings in an affluent society to eat as much bread as everyone seems to.

  41. #91
    mischamischaracterisation Dquincy's Avatar
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    "The meat and dairy substitutes industry could be worth $40 billion by 2020."

    Not my words, Carol. The words of billionaire, Richard Branson.

    https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/...ughter-animals

  42. #92
    Administrator SvN's Avatar
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    Artificial meet is only a few years away from hitting the shelves anyway.

  43. #93
    Senior Member John's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SvN View Post
    Artificial meet is only a few years away from hitting the shelves anyway.
    We've been having an artifical meet for years.

  44. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by SvN View Post
    Artificial meet is only a few years away from hitting the shelves anyway.
    Yeah that's what I've thought. The way to end/reduce animals being killed will be by growing meat in a petri dish.

  45. #95
    More successful than most Magic's Avatar
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    Fuck that sounds disgusting.

  46. #96
    ram it up your shitpipe Giggles's Avatar
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    It'll all just be like Quorn, but at about €50 for a 'steak'.

  47. #97
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    According to some shit I've just Googled an average thousand pound cow will yield almost half of that in 'retail cuts'. Then you have the other by-products left over. Will it ever really become cheap enough to grow two hundred kilograms of pretend meat for less than you can raise and process a cow?

  48. #98
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Why would you want to reduce killing animals? Where else will they go? You're basically saying you want to make cows, chickens etc extinct.

    If we were sniping snow leopards off clifftops for a steak then that would be one thing.

  49. #99
    Webly Ian's Avatar
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    I'm in favour of getting rid of pandas. Useless twats.

    I'd eat a pandaburger without hesitation.

  50. #100
    Senior Member The Merse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Floyd View Post
    Why would you want to reduce killing animals? Where else will they go? You're basically saying you want to make cows, chickens etc extinct.

    If we were sniping snow leopards off clifftops for a steak then that would be one thing.
    Yes. Their populations need to be reduced. Of course rather than cull the fuckers you can just manage them onto sustainable population levels by leaving them to graze for years with a small population of bulls taken from those who are currently used to stud, coupling that with their natural breeding instincts (almost zero libido in the case of most bulls for instance), and that population will slowly ebb away to something more natural (not that there’s anything natural about most of the ‘breeds’).

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