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Thread: Veganism

  1. #1
    mischamischaracterisation Dquincy's Avatar
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    Veganism

    Hello.

    How are you all?

    My wife has recently become a vegan, in the dietary sense. What are your views on veganism? Would any of you do it?

    I can see valid arguaments for becoming vegan; health reasons, animal agriculture being unsustainable, the poor welfare/killing of the animals. However, I just can't see myself doing it.

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    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    I could probably ditch meat if I had to, like if I had one of those loser shitting conditions that was aggravated by it, but if I had to give up dairy products and eggs and that as well then I would just live with the pain.

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    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Same as anything else. Good luck to you if you want to do it, but bad luck to you if you try to force it on anyone else (including your children).

    It seems to be very much a theatre of war in the New Authoritarianism though so I'm preparing to make a meat'n'cheese barricade at the front door.

  4. #4
    I used to be funny.
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    I love meat too much but would adapt if we wound up in a Verhoeven vision of the future.

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    Administrator SvN's Avatar
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    Go on then, what are the valid reasons for becoming a vegan? Because those that you've listed in your first post aren't really valid.

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    Senior Member -james-'s Avatar
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    Being vegetarian is incredibly easy. Vegan, fuck no.

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    More successful than most Magic's Avatar
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    Even vegetarianism is hard and requires planning and effort.

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    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dquincy View Post
    I can see valid arguaments for becoming vegan; health reasons, animal agriculture being unsustainable, the poor welfare/killing of the animals. However, I just can't see myself doing it.
    Health reasons? Definitely not, unless your idea of not being a vegan is eating in McDonalds every day. Animal agriculture does generate more greenhouse gases than plant agriculture, so that could be a valid reason, although I doubt most vegans take other sustainable stances. Animal welfare is a lol argument. The alternative for those poor cows that you are not going to eat is mass extinction. Has anyone asked the cows what they prefer?

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    Bookie Sir Andy Mahowry's Avatar
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    Not a chance.

    I doubt I could even go vegetarian.

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    Senior Member The Merse's Avatar
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    Been vegan for 6 months now. I've gradually been moving towards it over the past 4 or so years. I started consciously eating a lot more veggie meals initially, quickly moving on to never cooking with meat (only eating it out/with friends etc), then fully vegetarian about 18 months ago. Once I'd done that it made no sense to not go the next step.

    As for the reason why - entirely ethical. No health reasons (indeed that's more of a ball ache in terms of micro-managing your diet), animal welfare and the environment behind it all, just as with my decisions over the years to avoid non-sustainable palm oil, reduce my paper consumption (oh how I miss physical magazines), reduce my plastic consumption. It's not a panacea for the worlds problems, but it's a step in the right direction to me.

  11. #11
    More successful than most Magic's Avatar
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    Do you not find it hard to plan meals?

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    Senior Member The Merse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Floyd View Post
    Same as anything else. Good luck to you if you want to do it, but bad luck to you if you try to force it on anyone else (including your children).

    It seems to be very much a theatre of war in the New Authoritarianism though so I'm preparing to make a meat'n'cheese barricade at the front door.
    I do find this very odd. Would you level the same criticism at those in traditionally vegan/vegetarian cultures? I also don't really get the use of the word 'force' in this context... It's rather extreme a term.

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    Senior Member The Merse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic View Post
    Do you not find it hard to plan meals?
    I don't plan. I have staples in the house of course and I pick up groceries like any normal person and 99% of the time I decide what I'm eating of an evening on the way home from work/whatever I'm up to. It's not difficult. I do really enjoy cooking and being creative with cooking though, so that helps I guess? Also helps that I live in one of the hubs of vegan and vegan-friendly restaurants/takeaways/cafes etc so there doesn't need to be much planning go into that either.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Merse View Post
    I do find this very odd. Would you level the same criticism at those in traditionally vegan/vegetarian cultures? I also don't really get the use of the word 'force' in this context... It's rather extreme a term.
    You can bring them up how you want, but if they then say 'I want to eat meat' and you coerce them into not doing so, that's abuse.

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    Senior Member -james-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic View Post
    Even vegetarianism is hard and requires planning and effort.
    It depends on what you're starting from. I've eaten meat twice since September but I very rarely had meat in the fridge in the first place.

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    Senior Member The Merse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Floyd View Post
    You can bring them up how you want, but if they then say 'I want to eat meat' and you coerce them into not doing so, that's abuse.
    OK, that's understandable. For me, that's just part and parcel allowing children to develop their own morals. Of course your views will influence theirs, but they will develop their own unless they're morons.

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    Senior Member mugbull's Avatar
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    It's fine. It's definitely a trend, which is probably why a lot of you are shitting on it, but on its face I can see how it would make sense.

  18. #18
    Custom User Title phonics's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SvN View Post
    Go on then, what are the valid reasons for becoming a vegan? Because those that you've listed in your first post aren't really valid.
    I'd say some of them are valid.

    If I lived in India, I'd go vegetarian (not vegan) in a second. Anywhere else? Fuck that noise, the foods shit. I guess years of no access to meat give you a good grounding in how to go without it.

    There's a vegetarian curry place in Walmley next to the family and I raid the place every time I check in. It looks like a greasy spoon cafe but I swear I've never had better food.

    edit: I'd also say Jimmy calling it abuse is a bit much.

    P.S. Bean Burgers are better than actual burgers. And cheaper.

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    Senior Member randomlegend's Avatar
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    My girlfiend is a pescetarian and I whilst I wouldn't chose to, I could do that or vegetarian fairly comfortably. I quite often cook the same for both of us when we are eating together and really enjoy a lot of it. Long-term I'd definitely miss meat, though.

    Not a chance I could handle being vegan.

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    Senior Member The Merse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mokbull View Post
    It's fine. It's definitely a trend, which is probably why a lot of you are shitting on it, but on its face I can see how it would make sense.
    There's an element of this in the past year in particular and the way that the growth of veganism has been quite exponential since 2015, where it ties into the whole 'raw' fad, but vegetarianism and veganism has been very steadily rising over the past two decades across the western world. That's a sustained trend, not a fashion/fad trend. For me, it's also symptomatic of the return of the politics of conscience.

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    Abuse is probably a strong word, but it's definitely shit parenting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Merse View Post
    the return of the politics of conscience.
    Er, what?

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    ram it up your shitpipe Giggles's Avatar
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    Calling bean burgers better than normal burgers is the ramblings of a deviant.

    Anyway, I could do vegetarian or vegan if it was for something like health reasons, but I don't think there's anything I give less of a shit about than the environment.
    Anyway, the fuckers have got so militant lately that I'd probably just eat more meat as a two finger salute to them.

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    Senior Member John's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Merse View Post
    reduce my paper consumption (oh how I miss physical magazines)
    I'm on board with veganism in general, it's not for me but I understand the arguments for it and each to their own. I don't understand depriving yourself in that way for the sake of a purely personal choice though. Those magazines are on the shelf whether you buy them or not, so if you're seriously missing them then why not?

    I know you could say the same thing about chicken or shampoo or whatever, but printed media just seems different somehow.

  25. #25
    Isn't he banned? Baz's Avatar
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    How can you tell if someone is a Vegan?
    Toggle Spoiler
    I'm a twit

  26. #26
    ram it up your shitpipe Giggles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baz View Post
    How can you tell if someone is a Vegan?
    Toggle Spoiler
    Didn't you use the exact same joke about Facebook before?

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    Senior Member Spikey M's Avatar
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    I could go vegetarian relatively easily, but anyone that can live without cheese is a pervert.

    My daughter had dairy intolerance when she was born and I tried some of the vegan cheese she used to eat. Smelt like vomit, tasted worse. Thank Christ she grew out of it and can now smash down cheddar and Philadelphia like nature intended.

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    Isn't he banned? Baz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggles View Post
    Didn't you use the exact same joke about Facebook before?
    It has many uses; electric car owners, rescue dog owners, grandparents with kids at Oxford, war widows, people who win on the grand national, etc.
    I'm a twit

  29. #29
    mischamischaracterisation Dquincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SvN View Post
    Go on then, what are the valid reasons for becoming a vegan? Because those that you've listed in your first post aren't really valid.
    This fella lists off a load of stats demonstrating how animal agriculture negatively impacts the environment. His stats are a little off by all accounts, but I think his points still stand.

    http://www.cowspiracy.com/facts/

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    Pretty Much Amazing Mike's Avatar
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    They’re just king of the fussy eaters.

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    ram it up your shitpipe Giggles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baz View Post
    It has many uses; electric car owners, rescue dog owners, grandparents with kids at Oxford, war widows, people who win on the grand national, etc.
    true actually.

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    Senior Member Disco's Avatar
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    I don't really buy the animal welfare bit (it's just a few animals, what else are you going to do with them) after all being tasty is about the best thing possible for any species. Does anyone believe we'd be short of, for example, tigers if they made great sausages? Plus going about your daily life impacts millions of different species, deciding not to eat three or four doesn't make a lot of sense from an 'ethical' standpoint.

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    In an abstract moral kind of way I agree with veganism and would climb aboard the bandwagon. In practice though, I just can't be arsed. I don't know enough about food and can't cook that well, so veganism is a stretch.

    Being veggie is pretty easy. Ms Hammer is veggie so I'm basically veggie myself (like this guy), and with Quorn mince and sausage it's a piece of piss really. I don't like the restrictions that it places on you when at restaurants though, so I don't know if I could make a rule of it.

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    Senior Member Jimmy Floyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disco View Post
    I don't really buy the animal welfare bit (it's just a few animals, what else are you going to do with them) after all being tasty is about the best thing possible for any species. Does anyone believe we'd be short of, for example, tigers if they made great sausages? Plus going about your daily life impacts millions of different species, deciding not to eat three or four doesn't make a lot of sense from an 'ethical' standpoint.
    They don't care about taxonomy though (or they would do more about species that are actually endangered, something that has gone weirdly out of fashion as far as I can see), they care about Steve the Cow's feelings. Same thing with these viral pictures you get of nasty American lawyers shooting buffaloes.

    Veganism is basically narcissism meets food.

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    How do you know what 'they' do or don't do?

    Bizarre comment.

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    Administrator Kikó's Avatar
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    I'm trying to be more vegetarian in my food choices and reduce meat intake as much as I can but I'm not militant about it. I think it's better for my well being so I'll reduce.

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    Senior Member Disco's Avatar
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    That's the bit that makes the least sense, Steve the Cow has an immeasurably better existence compared to any other non-farmed animal. If you're claiming not to eat them because you want to be nice to them then there's something wrong with your brain.

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    ram it up your shitpipe Giggles's Avatar
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    Senior Member Disco's Avatar
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    Look at these appalling conditions.


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    More successful than most Magic's Avatar
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    India is a disgrace though especially the antibiotic OF LAST RESORT saga.

  41. #41
    Bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuno Reg's Avatar
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    On the morality discussion, it comes down to whether you believe the particular animals you're eating enjoy their life enough to warrant their existence for your consumption. The meat you buy varies of course, but some of the animals' lives are horrible and they couldn't possibly get any joy from them. In which case surely it is better - morally - for them to not exist at all. On the other hand, other meat comes from cows and pigs and such who roam free, joking with their bros and sises, are fed good food themselves, and don't have harmful chemicals pumped into them. In those cases, perhaps it is good that they exist so they can enjoy life (apart from the seconds or minutes they may suspect the time is nigh) and ultimately feed you?

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    Senior Member The Merse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disco View Post
    Look at these appalling conditions.

    So, aside from the main driver for me being the environment and sustainability...

    Dairy cows are made to constantly breed and then have their calves taken from them. Pretty simply, this is bare bones dairy farming - can’t get any species to lactate without a reason to do so.

    So, they’re artificially inseminated as that’s the only efficient way to do it. Lovely, geezer pops his arm up the cows vag and pumps with the juices of a wanked off bull. Then when the calf comes they take it away and either cycle it into dairy production or... veal time.

    Now, I’m not lecturous so this is the last statement I’ll make to this end. Once upon a time, ironically when serial dating veggies I did not give a rats ass for anything I deemed below I the food chain. I did support good conditions for the animals but that was it. At some stage doe the line, after reducing meat etc for the aforementioned concerns of sustainability, I then started to think a lot more about what I was eating and couldn’t stomach the idea of eating or exploiting animals (thy includes testing). If you can’t stomach that, then the dairy industry processes outlined above become equally unpalatable to many like myself.

  43. #43
    Senior Member Disco's Avatar
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    Anthropomorphising much? The alternative is half the population starving to death, half of the rest eaten alive by predators and all of them being riddled with disease all the time. Animals on a micro and macro level are demonstrably better off if they're part of human agriculture.

    Also, lol at 'being pumped full of harmful chemicals', think that one through for a minute.

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    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    I post loads of bacon memes on Facebook and berate people taking the so-called 'vegetarian option' ('Eat somewhere else!') when I'm out, so I tend to sway aggressively the other way. If I could grow a proper beard I would be all over that as well.

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    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    On the morality discussion, it comes down to whether you believe the particular animals you're eating enjoy their life enough to warrant their existence for your consumption. The meat you buy varies of course, but some of the animals' lives are horrible and they couldn't possibly get any joy from them. In which case surely it is better - morally - for them to not exist at all.
    The main driver of, well, everything non-human species do is survival of their species. Deciding that their extinction is morally better than them having a shit life is just projecting. They don't care about the animals, they just feel bad when looking at those PETA videos so they want to stop it so that they don't feel bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    On the other hand, other meat comes from cows and pigs and such who roam free, joking with their bros and sises, are fed good food themselves, and don't have harmful chemicals pumped into them. In those cases, perhaps it is good that they exist so they can enjoy life (apart from the seconds or minutes they may suspect the time is nigh) and ultimately feed you?
    And then you're not being 'environmentally friendly' anymore.

  46. #46
    Senior Member The Merse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggles View Post
    Like any emotive cause it tends to boil over sometimes. I’m biased of course, but I’d encourage you to be more balanced in recognising/researching the instances of violence towards vegan activists.

    Additionally, the so called militants aren’t representative of the whole. One of my best mates returned to Ireland to take on his dads dairy and lambing farms recently. We remain close, though he knows I’m opposed to his and his families profession.

    As for the whole ‘how do you know who’s a vegan’ thing and the general attitude towards vegans as being oddball militants... it’s a six of one half a dozen case for me. From one side, of course anyone consciously objecting to a societal norm tends to be vocal on the subject, and this is true of pretty much any such cause. In tandem, those following the societal norm tend to lash out at those who object. As with many such causes I struggle to understand why it’s quite so precedent to rally against and ridicule my choices, but I do understand the (evolutionary) psychology behind it. I’m a threat because I’m different, but I also choose to believe, and have done for as long as I can remember, that a key measure of human progress is in rebuking against the more unsavoury elements of our instinctive psyche - not seeing people of another colour as threats as they’re obviously from a different tribe, not viewing those outside of societal norms as a threat due to the inherent threat of instability in a community caused by dissent, etc etc.

    Going a little deep and probably talking some bollocks but fuck it, this train journey is boring.

  47. #47
    Senior Member Pepe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disco View Post
    Anthropomorphising much? The alternative is half the population starving to death, half of the rest eaten alive by predators and all of them being riddled with disease all the time.
    If we stopped eating cows we would just kill them all within two days. For factory ones, the equipment is already in place. Free-roaming ones would be taking precious agricultural land and thus wouldn't be allowed to stay there 'living the life.'

  48. #48
    Senior Member The Merse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disco View Post
    Anthropomorphising much? The alternative is half the population starving to death, half of the rest eaten alive by predators and all of them being riddled with disease all the time. Animals on a micro and macro level are demonstrably better off if they're part of human agriculture.

    Also, lol at 'being pumped full of harmful chemicals', think that one through for a minute.
    Where did I talk about harmful chemicals? Edit- ah see that was Reg.

    And yes, I understand. Obviously in an ideal world we’d ‘manage’ the population into something sustainable, due to the fact that we’ve inorganically created most breeds of cows now. But, basically they need to face the same challenges as other species.

    Your assumption of the benefit to the animal is based on the idea that health alone is a measure of welfare. That’s bollocks as far as I’m concerned.

  49. #49
    Respect the point. Byron's Avatar
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    Veganism = fine

    Militant Veganism can fuck off.

  50. #50
    Won the Old Board Lewis's Avatar
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    'I’m a threat because I’m different'. Mate you've given up ham. You're not Martin Luther.

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