The Doctors are SEETHING

[DC]

Not really. I expect it's harder to become a doctor of some description than it is a civil engineer (on average). Maybe they get more money than nurses for that very reason.

The very reason that they are under-appreciated? Yes, yes that's why they are underpaid.

You can keep repeating yourself, but you only continue to demonstrate the fundamental point of the argument - you don't understand the complexity of nursing, the stress and hours worked, or apparently the brain power or sacrifice. You contribute to the overall underwhelming lack of respect offered to the medical community that is at risk of losing a generation of nurses and doctors to satisfy a short term budget goal (that could be more easily resolved by sorting out several significant loopholes involving LLC's).

[randomlegend]

Nursing/widwifery are fucking hard jobs. They have a lot of responsibility and often work under huge pressure. It's not a job anyone can do. Having been on the labour ward a couple of time recently, the midwives are pretty incredibly honestly.

Just because it doesn't take a lot of brain power (which as DC says isn't really true anyway) and isn't hard to get into doesn't mean we shouldn't value them highly (and so pay them decently).

[Lewis]

I'm not saying any idiot can do it. I just don't see how it can be as 'hard' as civil engineering, which was the comparison you made. I don't suppose civil engineers have much on heart surgeons, but I wouldn't like to think I'm taking the M62 for granted or shitting on Crossrail.

[Boydy]

Civil engineering can't be that hard.

[randomlegend]

You seem to only value how much brainpower/intelligence something requires when considering how 'hard' it is.

[phonics]

Can't believe me being the spawn of communism hasn't created more talk than the qualities of civil engineering. Harold would have been well up for this lads. Where's the PASSION?

[Lewis]

Well yeah, otherwise we'll spend the rest of our lives cry-wanking over how under-appreciated and under-paid most manual workers are. Those poor removal men. The farmers. What about the site labourers?! Won't anybody think about them?

[randomlegend]

As tacky as it sounds, they aren't responsible for people's lives.

Nursing is physically taxing, emotionally draining and genuinely does require a good brain. It's bloody hard and incredibly important. I don't think it's unreasonable to pay them decently in recognition of that.

It's the same with teaching. As I said, my girlfriend is an NQT and if you work it out she gets paid around/less than minimum wage for the hours she does.

[Pepe]

Farmers are not responsible for people's lives? Might want to think that one through. Far more important than nurses, therefore far more UNDERVALUED.

[randomlegend]

Not with the same kind of immediacy, no. It's clearly not the same kind of pressure or responsibility.

Also they should get more money for their milk, mate.

[Pepe]

Want to know who deserves to get paid more? Engineering graduate students? High pressure? Check. Long hours? Check. Brainpower? Check. Saves the world? Check (who do you think is going to fix global warming mate?)

[Pepe]

I would generally agree that nurses should be paid more but I don't know how much they earn so what can I say.

[Lewis]

I can't believe he's slagging Our Farmers off like that. Do you hate Britain or something? You're worse than Jeremy Corbyn.

[DC]

I would generally agree that nurses should be paid more but I don't know how much they earn so what can I say.

Band 5 is £21k start, I think 4k more in London for the expense.

[DC]

Farmers are not responsible for people's lives? Might want to think that one through. Far more important than nurses, therefore far more UNDERVALUED.

Farmers are paid not to farm. Bizarre, but true. Overproduction actually puts them out of business, so there's a lot of effort (and expense) in rigging the national and international markets so that some French git doesn't dump a load of corn for cheap. If we stopped subsidising it then they'd get paid more because it would naturally cost more to produce. But then some other national government would just subsidise their guys to boost their economy to our detriment. We would need to embargo goods from countries providing subsidy.

In short - Farmers can produce all the good that they like. But I wont eat it if it's not made into bread, chips, or delivered to a supermarket - in which case I don't care where it comes from so long as it has a yellow sticker on it or get a BOGOF.

By your logic Freight Logistics companies are the most important because they actually move the stuff.

In which case I work in Shipping, so I'm one-upping them - so now I am more important.

I take it all back, I deserve more money - screw nurses.

[niko_cee]

Don't nurses just get paid poorly as a function of them mostly being wimmins (historically)? If they are paid poorly. I don't know that they are in the grand scheme of things.

At least their (perceived) exploitation is to a slightly more altruistic end than that of care home workers. I always think they get the biggest shafting, when you think the money that goes into those kind of places.

The argument/threat of losing them all to private health systems is quite lol.

[Lee]

Nurses are not paid poorly.

[DC]

Nurses are not paid poorly.

Compared to comparatively qualified individuals, yes they are. Compared to the inability to freely negotiate their own wage structure and / or shop for other jobs, yes they are. In a nationalised system where the Private sector and Public sector is dictated to by the government as to the suitable level of compensation they deserve, they are woefully underpaid because the system is bias against them (hence why this same discussion is being undertaken for Junior Docs).

The alternative to not paying them more is of course to recruit more nurses and improve working conditions, but the government effectively instituted recruitment freezes at the same time by demanding a 10% saving year on year and undercutting the trust budgets by up to 25%. But they'll help free up some of that less cash by renegotiating every contract.

If this wasn't the NHS this discussion wouldn't be had.

Don't nurses just get paid poorly as a function of them mostly being wimmins (historically)?

Two parts to it; A the history of volunteerism in medicine and B the difference between a Nurse and an Orderly (and their changing roles).

The female part is a factor, but in truth it wouldn't have mattered as the professionalism of nursing is a relatively modern concept (i.e. since the NHS was instituted). Until such time it was often fulfilled by volunteers (religious organisations in particular - hence the propensity for religious nomenclature such as "Sister") and due to the successive war efforts it was typically fulfilled by females...so chicken and egg situation. I'm sure if it was men the same issue would exist - a la Fire Brigade and the Police who are under the same constraints.

A far bigger factor is that Doctors are historically the sons of the Upper Class or Middle Class, where nurses are drawn from working class - and are rewarded based on perceived utility against other working class roles such as being a miner or shop assistant. However they are now significantly more qualified, experienced, and involved in front-line activity then they ever were - but have not been rewarded for their increased professionalism.

Back in the day a nurse and orderly were differentiated largely by bedside manner and physical capability (the fittest, usually men, became an Orderly because of the physical requirements - particularly on the battlefield running the injured to and from field hospitals). Nowadays they are two very divergent roles, and Healthcare Assistants have been introduced to fill the gap. The modern healthcare assistants are closer to the original role of nurses.

In the last 50 years the role of a nurse has changed from the aspect of domesticity in the hospital with a "Matron" to boss people around, to actually providing life saving (or palliative) care. Where 50 years ago the Nurse was adjunct to Doctor, they are now often parallel in the care-giving paradigm.

If they are paid poorly. I don't know that they are in the grand scheme of things.

They're not paid poorly if you compare them to minimum wage, but when you compare them to other professionals of similar qualification and background then they are even behind teachers.

When you consider then the risks they undertake (my own wife has been stabbed with a needle, attacked with a knife, punched, slapped with urine soaked underwear and various other things - in the last 12 months alone), the responsibility that they have, and are burdened with we can't expect to pay less than comparable systems...which we do. Hence why we are shedding nurses abroad.

The argument/threat of losing them all to private health systems is quite lol.

You wont. What will happen (and is happening) is:

1. providing fewer training places
2. training fewer nurses
3. losing British nurses to overseas (where pay in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand is several thousand pounds annually better off at entry level)
4. have instituted an immigration policy that says you must be earning 28k within 5 years or you have to leave (where nurses can only earn 21k ) which will mean reduced overseas recruitment
5. growing numbers of retired nurses (we're 5 years away from one of the biggest retirement pots in history kicking in as all the early 80's Nurses get to retirement age).

You wont lose them to private health systems, we will just start running out of nurses here and find it very difficult to encourage them back into the industry (or they'll just see our education as a means to go somewhere else).

[Pepe]

Someone is nursing quite a seethe in here.

[Boydy]

Someone is nursing quite a seethe in here.

Have some rep.

[Lewis]

It's pretty lol that Our NHS uses its effective monopoly to suppress wages. If only there was a mechanism or system (some sort of 'market') that allocated resources more effectively.

[DC]

Someone is nursing quite a seethe in here.

You clearly don't know me. There's a reason is called

[Spoonsky]

You clearly don't know me. There's a reason is called

[Byron]

Turnout of 76% with 98% of those voting for a full walkout.

The real story is in the BBC comments. Some proper lol to be had there.

[randomlegend]

What a result that is.

[Lewis]

How hard is it for the government to beat a strike these days? In the olden days unions would go on strike for weeks and months at short notice. Walking out for three days with loads of warning isn't a threat. Jeremy Hunt just needs to improve his offer slightly and then act all concerned for patients and they'll BOTTLE IT.

[randomlegend]

I think you're wrong but I guess we can only wait and see.

Even if he does force it through, I think people leaving the country/medicine will become a genuine problem.

[Pepe]

You'll just bring some in from elsewhere. Cheaper healthcare + multiculturalism = win.

[Boydy]

This is worrying reading:

http://koshh.org/the-connection-betw...ver-of-the-nhs

[Lee]

I was with a load of consultants from various hospitals on a course today and the consensus was that juniors will come in if asked to by their consultants 'on safety grounds' if asked. I'm not sure if they've had these conversations with their teams or if they're being naive. I suspect the latter given the timing of the first strike day. It's the day before rotation, so which junior doctor is going to give a shit about the consultants at the hospital they're likely leaving?

It will be interesting to see how many faces I know turn up as locums. And also to see if things work better. Consultants will cover the junior on calls and consultants will make better decisions (about admission) than juniors, generally speaking. Such a model isn't sustainable in a million years but I'm looking forward to seeing what difference it makes.

[Jimmy Floyd]

This is worrying reading:

http://koshh.org/the-connection-betw...ver-of-the-nhs

There may be merit in some of the points but the problem with these diatribes about NHS privatisation is that they always read like they think there's some secret conspiratorial right wing gang in an underground volcano lair determined to 'privatise' the NHS if it's the last thing they do, when in reality the cause is successive governments wanting to cut costs.

[Boydy]

There may be merit in some of the points but the problem with these diatribes about NHS privatisation is that they always read like they think there's some secret conspiratorial right wing gang in an underground volcano lair determined to 'privatise' the NHS if it's the last thing they do, when in reality the cause is successive governments wanting to cut costs.

Yeah, it does sound a little bit conspiracy theory-ish but I imagine there are businesses that are very interested in the NHS being broken up and being able to move into an open healthcare sector to make profit from.

[Kikó]

Consultation ends in 4 days - have your say https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...tation_doc.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/government/consul...r-2016-to-2017

[randomlegend]

Strikes are back on.

[Chrissy]

I used to work for the BMA giving union advice. I can well understand why they are striking based on how the BMA encourages it at every fucking opportunity.

The hours these Junior Dr's work are generally ridiculous. Cost cutting etc time after time leads to this situation of over worked staff and wages not really fit for purpose.

[randomlegend]

Looks like it's going ahead tomorrow

[Boydy]

How's it working? Everyone in hospital going to die tomorrow then?

[Lee]

Looks like it's going ahead tomorrow

It will go ahead, the BMA has to give something to its members after it pissed them off so badly in December. They'll do tomorrow, make their point and not bother with the other dates.

The only concern I have tomorrow is about getting people out of hospital, becaus not doing so meams we'll be stacking up in ED even more than we have been since Christmas. Patients will be safe as consultants are covering. My two main areas (ED and Acute Medicine) are being exempted on the basis that they provide emergency care so I'll be okay.

[randomlegend]

As far as I understand it it's probably the safest day to go to hospital. Much of the non-urgent stuff has been cancelled (elective surgery etc.) and the consultants are covering what the juniors usually do.

EDIT: what Lee said.

[The Merse]

Fuck it. I'm using my private from now on if I have anything causing serious concern.

The original doctor that diagnosed a pulled ligament, the one that said I had a plica, the junior doc who misread the sodding MRI as a medial ligament tear as opposed to what it actually turns out to be today (stated clearly on the notes that came with the MRI)... Arthritis caused by a complex Medial Miniscal tear.

It's not that they're bad doctors at all, I'm sure, but I'd just far rather see a specialist such as the one I saw today at the earliest opportunity. For a year I've used anti inflammatories and pain killers whilst being told a ligament will heal itself, and during that time arthritis has been occurring and in the words of today's specialist (who did Rafa Nadal's knee - swish), it's now a case of surgery or a new knee in 5 years. With a small chance that it may already have gone too far since the MRI in October.

The £200 excess seemed steep before when I'd already been living with it for 6 months by the time that I had the PMB added via my promotion, but I wish I'd stumped it up in June after all now.

[randomlegend]

In my experience sports injuries/orthopaedic stuff like that is one of the things the NHS is really bad at to be honest.

[Lee]

I think this action is right (we're safe) but not one of our fuckers are picketing which I don't like. At least get out of bed.

[Palmer]

Fuck it. I'm using my private from now on if I have anything causing serious concern.

The original doctor that diagnosed a pulled ligament, the one that said I had a plica, the junior doc who misread the sodding MRI as a medial ligament tear as opposed to what it actually turns out to be today (stated clearly on the notes that came with the MRI)... Arthritis caused by a complex Medial Miniscal tear.

It's not that they're bad doctors at all, I'm sure, but I'd just far rather see a specialist such as the one I saw today at the earliest opportunity. For a year I've used anti inflammatories and pain killers whilst being told a ligament will heal itself, and during that time arthritis has been occurring and in the words of today's specialist (who did Rafa Nadal's knee - swish), it's now a case of surgery or a new knee in 5 years. With a small chance that it may already have gone too far since the MRI in October.

The £200 excess seemed steep before when I'd already been living with it for 6 months by the time that I had the PMB added via my promotion, but I wish I'd stumped it up in June after all now.

Sounds exactly like what's going on with me at the moment. Been bumped around physios, consultants and radiologists for over a year now, getting nowhere. Four different people have given four different diagnoses, and I've just gone round in a circle. When the private medical insurance comes through with my new job I'll happily pay the £250 excess and just get it sorted (along with the wisdom tooth removal that's going to cost £1500 )

[phonics]

This video is so good

[phonics]

Having been private for the last decade. It's a massive joke and just as shit, you just get pushed off to whatever doctors mate instead of a randomer.

[Lee]

It's the same doctors. They just do private work in their spare time.

[Lewis]

Fuck it. I'm using my private from now on if I have anything causing serious concern.

The original doctor that diagnosed a pulled ligament, the one that said I had a plica, the junior doc who misread the sodding MRI as a medial ligament tear as opposed to what it actually turns out to be today (stated clearly on the notes that came with the MRI)... Arthritis caused by a complex Medial Miniscal tear.

It's not that they're bad doctors at all, I'm sure, but I'd just far rather see a specialist such as the one I saw today at the earliest opportunity. For a year I've used anti inflammatories and pain killers whilst being told a ligament will heal itself, and during that time arthritis has been occurring and in the words of today's specialist (who did Rafa Nadal's knee - swish), it's now a case of surgery or a new knee in 5 years. With a small chance that it may already have gone too far since the MRI in October.

The £200 excess seemed steep before when I'd already been living with it for 6 months by the time that I had the PMB added via my promotion, but I wish I'd stumped it up in June after all now.

I would have trashed the gaff if I had found that out. That's really, really piss-poor, and somebody needs their head punching in.

[Lee]

It's a bit bizarre having a radiograph read by a junior. All of ours are looked at by a consultant radiologist or specialty consultant. I thought that was normal practice.

[Charlie]

Just privatise it for fucks sake.

[randomlegend]

It's a bit bizarre having a radiograph read by a junior. All of ours are looked at by a consultant radiologist or specialty consultant. I thought that was normal practice.

It is normal practice as far as I've seen as well.

EDIT: In fact we had to fill out a feedback form just this week and one of the questions started "Considering you will never have to interpret an MRI as a junior doctor..."